Author Topic: Trump signs memo preventing illegal immigrants from being counted in congressional redistricting  (Read 840 times)

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Trump signs memo preventing illegal immigrants from being counted in congressional redistricting
by Anthony Leonardi, Breaking News Reporter
 | July 21, 2020 01:26 PM



President Trump signed a memorandum that seeks to exclude illegal immigrants from being counted in the next round of congressional redistricting.

Redistricting occurs for state legislature seats and at the federal level for U.S. House districts, known as congressional apportionment. The memo would affect the latter.

Trump's memorandum, sent out by the White House Press Office on Tuesday, reads, "I have accordingly determined that respect for the law and protection of the integrity of the democratic process warrant the exclusion of illegal aliens from the apportionment base, to the extent feasible and to the maximum extent of the President's discretion under the law."

A senior Trump administration official told Reuters that the memo “is another decisive step toward fulfilling his solemn pledge to ensure only American citizens have congressional representation, not illegal aliens." The president signed the memo on Tuesday at 1:10 p.m. EDT in the Oval Office.

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https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-signs-memo-preventing-illegal-immigrants-from-being-counted-in-congressional-redistricting
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Offline Fishrrman

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Excellent move.
I hope that he can "make it stick".

Offline libertybele

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Excellent move.
I hope that he can "make it stick".

It is a "memo", I'm not quite so sure that a memo is anything binding.
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It is a "memo", I'm not quite so sure that a memo is anything binding.


I wonder how many are going to believe this?  There is no way to not count them. The Census doesn't tell us how many shouldn't be counted.  Duh.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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I wonder how many are going to believe this?  There is no way to not count them. The Census doesn't tell us how many shouldn't be counted.  Duh.
You can count them, but not for the purpose of drawing up voting districts. Duh.
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Offline bilo

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I wonder how many are going to believe this?  There is no way to not count them. The Census doesn't tell us how many shouldn't be counted.  Duh.

If you automatically drop all those that do not have a social security number it should give you a good starting point.

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Offline berdie

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Most illegals have a social security number...it's just not theirs.

Identify the possible false numbers and it opens a whole 'nother can of worms. It shouldn't...but it does when hiring someone. I assume the same would hold true in this situation.

I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but I don't recall providing my ss# on the census. Could have happened, I've slept since responding. happy77

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Most illegals have a social security number...it's just not theirs.

Identify the possible false numbers and it opens a whole 'nother can of worms. It shouldn't...but it does when hiring someone. I assume the same would hold true in this situation.

I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but I don't recall providing my ss# on the census. Could have happened, I've slept since responding. happy77
That is a federal offense to hire someone with another's ID.

The company is at fault.
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Most illegals have a social security number...it's just not theirs.

Identify the possible false numbers and it opens a whole 'nother can of worms. It shouldn't...but it does when hiring someone. I assume the same would hold true in this situation.

I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but I don't recall providing my ss# on the census. Could have happened, I've slept since responding. happy77
It's the Social Security Administrations job to notify employers when there is a conflict in SS numbers and the employer is supposed to send verification of legitimacy to SSA. So if there are people using fake numbers than someone , not just the employer isn't doing their job protecting citizens and enforcing the law. I know that better than thirty years ago when I was managing we used to receive RFI's from SSA.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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It's the Social Security Administrations job to notify employers when there is a conflict in SS numbers and the employer is supposed to send verification of legitimacy to SSA. So if there are people using fake numbers than someone , not just the employer isn't doing their job protecting citizens and enforcing the law. I know that better than thirty years ago when I was managing we used to receive RFI's from SSA.

The SSA officially doesn't give a rat's ass if people use SS numbers that aren't theirs.  I know this because I new a gal who was really upset my ex stole her number to get a cell phone for cheap, and I called SS to help her and see what they'll do about it.  As long as the person isn't trying to get benefits, they just don't care if somebody stole it and used it to ruin your credit rating.
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Offline Neverdul

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That is a federal offense to hire someone with another's ID.

The company is at fault.

BS.

Having been in payroll and HR for well over 25 years I can tell you about how the I9 and E-verify process works and more precisely how it often doesn't work or work as intended or more importantly how people think it works.

A new hire comes in and fills out an I9. I have to personally see the documents presented as verification of identity and eligibility to work in the US and I enter the information from the documents on the form and sign attesting to the fact I saw the documents. And then the form gets filed in a file cabinet or a binder waiting for the day when I may or may not ever be audited by the Fed's - DHS.

I am not a forensic document expert nor am I expected to be. Keep in mind that some of the I9 documents that are acceptable are not necessarily documents most of us, even employers, are familiar with such as a Native American tribal document or a Form I-197, U.S. Citizen ID Card – I can look up what the documents are supposed to look like on this website:

https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/form-i-9-acceptable-documents

But how am I to know those documents are fake? Would you be able to know if any of those documents are real or forgeries by just looking at them?

Unless something like a SS card or driver's license or passport is an obvious fraud where the picture is obviously not of the person presenting it, and I mean a very, very obvious fake, or the hire tells me the documents are fake or I or the company facilitated giving the hire fake documents or entered false information on the I9 for the purpose of hiring someone not eligible to work in the US, I and my company are off the hook, we’ve done our due diligence.

As to E-Verify, only if I work for an employer who voluntarily uses the system or is required to as a Federal contractor or required by the state (in PA it is only required some public works contractors and subcontractors) I enter the information from the I9 in the E-Verify website and wait for a response, and sometimes wait and wait.

Should E-Verify come back with a mismatch of name and SSN (and that’s all they really check for) I have to let the employee know and give them an opportunity to appeal. And FWIW there are sometimes false mismatches. During the appeal process I have to keep the person employed because according the Fed’s, I cannot discriminate or make a determination on the authenticity of the documents or the SSN on my own.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-employers-should-do-after-e-verify-issues-tentative-nonconfirmation-employee.html

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/02/e-verify-might-not-be-all-its-cracked-be/

FWIW, the only time I had a newly hired employee not able to on their first day of work provide me with I9 documents (either 1 from List A like a passport that shows both identity and citizenship or 2 documents: 1 one from List B that shows identity such as a state issued driver’s license and 1 that shows eligibility to work in the US from List C such as a SS card, although those are not the only acceptable documents and I cannot dictate what documents the new hire provides as long as it matches the ones on the lists), it was an older man, someone obviously a US born citizen who had worked for his previous employer for over 40 years that had just gone out of business and had never had to complete an I9 as that had been his one and only employer and when he was hired some 40 years ago, there was no such thing as the I9.

He had a valid PA driver’s license but had lost is SS card years ago, didn’t have his certified birth certificate and never had a passport as, as he told me, he’d never been outside of Lancaster Co PA, except for some 40 years ago when he and his bride went to Niagara Falls on their honeymoon for a weekend.

I felt so bad for him when I told him that unless he could provide a document from List C, he’d be terminated after 3 days. I thought he was going to cry. FWIW he’d never in 40 years with his previous employer missed a day of work and had never prior to this been unemployed.

So I looked up the closest SSA office and facilitated a call with them and the employee on how he could get a replacement SSA card ASAP. I also found information on where he could order a certified copy of his birth certificate with the PA Div of Vital Records on line. I also spoke to his supervisor and the HR Director and we told him we would pay him up to a full 8 hours for the next day while he went to the local SSA office for the purpose of obtaining a replacement SS card.

It all turned out OK in the end as he was able to provide a document showing he had applied for a replacement SS card and that is sufficient for the I9 as long as it was a receipt for an application to replace a lost, stolen, or damaged document. The receipt is only good for 90 days but he was able to provide his replacement SS card before then.

 :patriot:
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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BS.

Having been in payroll and HR for well over 25 years I can tell you about how the I9 and E-verify process works and more precisely how it often doesn't work or work as intended or more importantly how people think it works.

A new hire comes in and fills out an I9. I have to personally see the documents presented as verification of identity and eligibility to work in the US and I enter the information from the documents on the form and sign attesting to the fact I saw the documents. And then the form gets filed in a file cabinet or a binder waiting for the day when I may or may not ever be audited by the Fed's - DHS.

I am not a forensic document expert nor am I expected to be. Keep in mind that some of the I9 documents that are acceptable are not necessarily documents most of us, even employers, are familiar with such as a Native American tribal document or a Form I-197, U.S. Citizen ID Card – I can look up what the documents are supposed to look like on this website:

https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/form-i-9-acceptable-documents

But how am I to know those documents are fake? Would you be able to know if any of those documents are real or forgeries by just looking at them?

Unless something like a SS card or driver's license or passport is an obvious fraud where the picture is obviously not of the person presenting it, and I mean a very, very obvious fake, or the hire tells me the documents are fake or I or the company facilitated giving the hire fake documents or entered false information on the I9 for the purpose of hiring someone not eligible to work in the US, I and my company are off the hook, we’ve done our due diligence.

As to E-Verify, only if I work for an employer who voluntarily uses the system or is required to as a Federal contractor or required by the state (in PA it is only required some public works contractors and subcontractors) I enter the information from the I9 in the E-Verify website and wait for a response, and sometimes wait and wait.

Should E-Verify come back with a mismatch of name and SSN (and that’s all they really check for) I have to let the employee know and give them an opportunity to appeal. And FWIW there are sometimes false mismatches. During the appeal process I have to keep the person employed because according the Fed’s, I cannot discriminate or make a determination on the authenticity of the documents or the SSN on my own.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-employers-should-do-after-e-verify-issues-tentative-nonconfirmation-employee.html

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/02/e-verify-might-not-be-all-its-cracked-be/

FWIW, the only time I had a newly hired employee not able to on their first day of work provide me with I9 documents (either 1 from List A like a passport that shows both identity and citizenship or 2 documents: 1 one from List B that shows identity such as a state issued driver’s license and 1 that shows eligibility to work in the US from List C such as a SS card, although those are not the only acceptable documents and I cannot dictate what documents the new hire provides as long as it matches the ones on the lists), it was an older man, someone obviously a US born citizen who had worked for his previous employer for over 40 years that had just gone out of business and had never had to complete an I9 as that had been his one and only employer and when he was hired some 40 years ago, there was no such thing as the I9.

He had a valid PA driver’s license but had lost is SS card years ago, didn’t have his certified birth certificate and never had a passport as, as he told me, he’d never been outside of Lancaster Co PA, except for some 40 years ago when he and his bride went to Niagara Falls on their honeymoon for a weekend.

I felt so bad for him when I told him that unless he could provide a document from List C, he’d be terminated after 3 days. I thought he was going to cry. FWIW he’d never in 40 years with his previous employer missed a day of work and had never prior to this been unemployed.

So I looked up the closest SSA office and facilitated a call with them and the employee on how he could get a replacement SSA card ASAP. I also found information on where he could order a certified copy of his birth certificate with the PA Div of Vital Records on line. I also spoke to his supervisor and the HR Director and we told him we would pay him up to a full 8 hours for the next day while he went to the local SSA office for the purpose of obtaining a replacement SS card.

It all turned out OK in the end as he was able to provide a document showing he had applied for a replacement SS card and that is sufficient for the I9 as long as it was a receipt for an application to replace a lost, stolen, or damaged document. The receipt is only good for 90 days but he was able to provide his replacement SS card before then.

 :patriot:

Good story!  i have had to go get my Birth Certificate before.  Its easy.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Good story!  i have had to go get my Birth Certificate before.  Its easy.

It's easiest when you're not under pressure to gt it.   wink777

Most of us handled it years ago and have the docs in hand.  Way back when we were on our Honeymoon (2001) we briefly visited my home town, and I noticed the courthouse (it is the County Seat).  So...we dropped in to the clerk's office and I had the Birth Certificate run off for five bucks. 
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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It's easiest when you're not under pressure to gt it.   wink777

Most of us handled it years ago and have the docs in hand.  Way back when we were on our Honeymoon (2001) we briefly visited my home town, and I noticed the courthouse (it is the County Seat).  So...we dropped in to the clerk's office and I had the Birth Certificate run off for five bucks.

Yep, that's just how easy it is.  But to someone trying to get a job after 40 years at another company I imagine that was stressful.
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Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Yep, that's just how easy it is.  But to someone trying to get a job after 40 years at another company I imagine that was stressful.
Other things can happen, as well. I have known a couple of instances where people lost their documentation in disasters, and getting new copies can be a real problem.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

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C S Lewis

Offline dancer

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The SSA officially doesn't give a rat's ass if people use SS numbers that aren't theirs.  I know this because I new a gal who was really upset my ex stole her number to get a cell phone for cheap, and I called SS to help her and see what they'll do about it.  As long as the person isn't trying to get benefits, they just don't care if somebody stole it and used it to ruin your credit rating.
A dude named Jose Macias owns my number.  He even lives in my house.  LOL  It was stolen at the DMV!

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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BS.

Having been in payroll and HR for well over 25 years I can tell you about how the I9 and E-verify process works and more precisely how it often doesn't work or work as intended or more importantly how people think it works.

A new hire comes in and fills out an I9. I have to personally see the documents presented as verification of identity and eligibility to work in the US and I enter the information from the documents on the form and sign attesting to the fact I saw the documents. And then the form gets filed in a file cabinet or a binder waiting for the day when I may or may not ever be audited by the Fed's - DHS.

I am not a forensic document expert nor am I expected to be. Keep in mind that some of the I9 documents that are acceptable are not necessarily documents most of us, even employers, are familiar with such as a Native American tribal document or a Form I-197, U.S. Citizen ID Card – I can look up what the documents are supposed to look like on this website:

https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/form-i-9-acceptable-documents

But how am I to know those documents are fake? Would you be able to know if any of those documents are real or forgeries by just looking at them?

Unless something like a SS card or driver's license or passport is an obvious fraud where the picture is obviously not of the person presenting it, and I mean a very, very obvious fake, or the hire tells me the documents are fake or I or the company facilitated giving the hire fake documents or entered false information on the I9 for the purpose of hiring someone not eligible to work in the US, I and my company are off the hook, we’ve done our due diligence.

As to E-Verify, only if I work for an employer who voluntarily uses the system or is required to as a Federal contractor or required by the state (in PA it is only required some public works contractors and subcontractors) I enter the information from the I9 in the E-Verify website and wait for a response, and sometimes wait and wait.

Should E-Verify come back with a mismatch of name and SSN (and that’s all they really check for) I have to let the employee know and give them an opportunity to appeal. And FWIW there are sometimes false mismatches. During the appeal process I have to keep the person employed because according the Fed’s, I cannot discriminate or make a determination on the authenticity of the documents or the SSN on my own.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-employers-should-do-after-e-verify-issues-tentative-nonconfirmation-employee.html

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/02/e-verify-might-not-be-all-its-cracked-be/

FWIW, the only time I had a newly hired employee not able to on their first day of work provide me with I9 documents (either 1 from List A like a passport that shows both identity and citizenship or 2 documents: 1 one from List B that shows identity such as a state issued driver’s license and 1 that shows eligibility to work in the US from List C such as a SS card, although those are not the only acceptable documents and I cannot dictate what documents the new hire provides as long as it matches the ones on the lists), it was an older man, someone obviously a US born citizen who had worked for his previous employer for over 40 years that had just gone out of business and had never had to complete an I9 as that had been his one and only employer and when he was hired some 40 years ago, there was no such thing as the I9.

He had a valid PA driver’s license but had lost is SS card years ago, didn’t have his certified birth certificate and never had a passport as, as he told me, he’d never been outside of Lancaster Co PA, except for some 40 years ago when he and his bride went to Niagara Falls on their honeymoon for a weekend.

I felt so bad for him when I told him that unless he could provide a document from List C, he’d be terminated after 3 days. I thought he was going to cry. FWIW he’d never in 40 years with his previous employer missed a day of work and had never prior to this been unemployed.

So I looked up the closest SSA office and facilitated a call with them and the employee on how he could get a replacement SSA card ASAP. I also found information on where he could order a certified copy of his birth certificate with the PA Div of Vital Records on line. I also spoke to his supervisor and the HR Director and we told him we would pay him up to a full 8 hours for the next day while he went to the local SSA office for the purpose of obtaining a replacement SS card.

It all turned out OK in the end as he was able to provide a document showing he had applied for a replacement SS card and that is sufficient for the I9 as long as it was a receipt for an application to replace a lost, stolen, or damaged document. The receipt is only good for 90 days but he was able to provide his replacement SS card before then.

 :patriot:
Individuals who illegally hire, recruit, or refer illegal aliens to work in the United States are in violation of Title 8 U.S.C § 1324.

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Offline berdie

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Individuals who illegally hire, recruit, or refer illegal aliens to work in the United States are in violation of Title 8 U.S.C § 1324.

Whether you like it or not.



That is true. But every thing @Neverdul  said about the hiring process is also true. Especially using EVerify. They will notify that the ss# has problems but an employer may not disqualify the potential candidate because of that. The potential employee must be notified of the discrepency and give them time to rectify the situation. More often than not the employee is already on the payroll. And more often than not they would disappear themselves when this info was presented. But not always.

As you said, it is illegal to knowingly employ an illegal. But the hiring process is a little bit of a pita. It's a bad situation for an employer.

Like I originally said...I don't see how the census bureau would accomplish this.

@IsailedawayfromFR

Offline Neverdul

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Individuals who illegally hire, recruit, or refer illegal aliens to work in the United States are in violation of Title 8 U.S.C § 1324.

Whether you like it or not.


That is true. But every thing @Neverdul  said about the hiring process is also true. Especially using EVerify. They will notify that the ss# has problems but an employer may not disqualify the potential candidate because of that. The potential employee must be notified of the discrepency and give them time to rectify the situation. More often than not the employee is already on the payroll. And more often than not they would disappear themselves when this info was presented. But not always.

As you said, it is illegal to knowingly employ an illegal. But the hiring process is a little bit of a pita. It's a bad situation for an employer.

Like I originally said...I don't see how the census bureau would accomplish this.

@IsailedawayfromFR

You are correct @berdie as to the “knowingly” part. If the employer has done reasonable due diligence to insure the I9 is completed and the employer’s rep signing the form has physically seen the documentation and has no reason to believe they are fraudulent, they are off the hook. The Fed’s (DHS) can go after an employer for knowingly falsifying I9’s and even for not completing them or signing off as the person who inspected the documents when they didn't see them or back dating the I9.

@IsailedawayfromFR

Per the website: https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/form-i-9-acceptable-documents/examining-documents

Quote
You must examine the documentation your employee presents to complete Section 2 of Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification. You are not required to be a document expert. You must accept documents that reasonably appear to be genuine and relate to the person presenting them. However, if your new employee provides a document that does not reasonably appear to be genuine and relate to them, you must reject that document and ask for other documents that satisfy the requirements of Form I-9.

I would however clarify that neither the I9 or E-Verify is ever to be used during the screening or hiring process.

The I9 may be completed as soon as the employer has offered the individual a job AND the individual has accepted the offer and prior to their actual first day of work, but not prior to an offer AND an acceptance. However, each newly hired employee must complete and sign Section 1 of Form I-9 within 3 business days of the date of hire of their employee (the hire date means the first day of work for pay) and E-Verify, “if used” within 3 days of the date of hire.

If the new hire does not present acceptable identification documents by the end of three business days after the first day of work for pay, you may terminate the employee for failing to complete the I9 form, but guess what, you still have to pay them for any hours worked up until termination. The IRS says that if you didn’t get a SSN, you use all zeros on the W-2.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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That is true. But every thing @Neverdul  said about the hiring process is also true. Especially using EVerify. They will notify that the ss# has problems but an employer may not disqualify the potential candidate because of that. The potential employee must be notified of the discrepency and give them time to rectify the situation. More often than not the employee is already on the payroll. And more often than not they would disappear themselves when this info was presented. But not always.

As you said, it is illegal to knowingly employ an illegal. But the hiring process is a little bit of a pita. It's a bad situation for an employer.

Like I originally said...I don't see how the census bureau would accomplish this.

@IsailedawayfromFR
It does indeed pose an onerous risk in the hiring process, but it is still illegal.

Pleading ignorance might work, but then again in a tough enforcement environment, would be tough to get that accepted.
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