Georgia shooting of Ahmaud Arbery spurs outcry

[Cyber Liberty]

Nothing to lose?  Get shot in the back walking away or fight...

Well, I guess if that was his justification for committing suicide.  Would you ever try to disarm somebody by grabbing the muzzle of their shotgun? 

[EdinVA]

Well, I guess if that was his justification for committing suicide.  Would you ever try to disarm somebody by grabbing the muzzle of their shotgun?

If I was pretty sure I would get shot anyway I might try to fight..

[Cyber Liberty]

If I was pretty sure I would get shot anyway I might try to fight..

True...and maybe this was just a "Fight or Flight" response.  Just because I can't imagine being in that frame of mind doesn't mean others never felt that way.

[sneakypete]

Nothing to lose?  Get shot in the back walking away or fight...

@EdinVA

Or MAYBE,just stand right there and wait for the police to arrive?

If they had WANTED to shoot him,there was no need to let him get close enough to grab at a shotgun.

[EdinVA]

@EdinVA

Or MAYBE,just stand right there and wait for the police to arrive?

If they had WANTED to shoot him,there was no need to let him get close enough to grab at a shotgun.

Don't know.... just speculating...

[sneakypete]

Don't know.... just speculating...

@EdinVA

Ok,fair enough.

Sooo,which choice would YOU have made? Would you stand there and wait for the police to arrive,or would you have grabbed at the shotgun?

[EdinVA]

@EdinVA

Ok,fair enough.

Sooo,which choice would YOU have made? Would you stand there and wait for the police to arrive,or would you have grabbed at the shotgun?

@sneakypete
Well, when I was in my 20's, and if confronted with 2 armed thugs with no way out, probably fight.

[roamer_1]

@EdinVA

Ok,fair enough.

Sooo,which choice would YOU have made? Would you stand there and wait for the police to arrive,or would you have grabbed at the shotgun?

In a 2-point crossfire? The odds of success are infinitesimal. You'd have to get one gun, and take the other guy out, nearly at the same time. The best shot at it would be to knock the shotgun muzzle toward the other guy hoping an involuntary discharge takes him out... And then worry the rest of the way about the original guy. That is a zero gain.

Submit and wait for a better option.

[Cyber Liberty]

@sneakypete
Well, when I was in my 20's, and if confronted with 2 armed thugs with no way out, probably fight.

Which brings us back to the original discussion:  Did the two guys in the pickup behave in a manner that precluded flight?  Could be seen that way, and then the question arises, were they "detaining" him legally?

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete
Well, when I was in my 20's, and if confronted with 2 armed thugs with no way out, probably fight.

@EdinVA

Well,to start off,you must have lived a sheltered life to have even considered fighting two potential attackers armed with firearms that are just trying to hold you for the police.

I KNEW better long before I got  that old.

Survival Rule # 1 : If confronted by armed strangers and no one is talking about killing you,do NOT get pushy.

Truth to tell,in "real life" I don't even get pushy if they are unarmed,outnumber me,and talking about killing or beating me if I am armde. I will just stand there and let things develope until I see which way things are going,and then I either just explain the realities in life to them and tell them "You can be alive tomorrow or dead today,your choice. Take your time making it. I'm in no hurry."

If they are armed,I still won't react unless they seem to be serious about killing me NOW,not some time in the future. If I think they are going to kill me NOW,I will pull my gun and just start shooting because we no longer have anything to discuss.

If they are openly carrying firearms and telling me to remain in place and wait for the police,I am going to stand there and wait for the police to show up. The best way to survive a gun fight is to not get in one.

[Cyber Liberty]

In a 2-point crossfire? The odds of success are infinitesimal. You'd have to get one gun, and take the other guy out, nearly at the same time. The best shot at it would be to knock the shotgun muzzle toward the other guy hoping an involuntary discharge takes him out... And then worry the rest of the way about the original guy. That is a zero gain.

Submit and wait for a better option.

I'm reminded of a short story about the appeal of self-preservation.

A fellow is condemned to be executed by a Feudal King, but he makes a suggestion that intrigued the King:  If the King permitted him a one-year delay to the execution, he would teach the King's pig how to sing.  The King agreed and the prisoner was led away.  He was asked "Why would you make a deal like that?  You know you can't teach a pig to sing!"

The answer:  "It's true, I can't.  But, now I have another year on this world.  During that time, I might escape.  The King may realize I should not be executed.  The King may die.  The pig may actually learn to sing!  At least I'll be there to reap the reward and live another day."

And that is why I concur with your hypothetical scenario.   

[sneakypete]

If I was pretty sure I would get shot anyway I might try to fight..

@EdinVA

WHY would you imagine that????

The two men have already stopped you,pointed guns at you to make you stop,and have NOT shot at you,so WHY would they start shooting when they stopped you without shooting,and are asking you questions about a burglary ???

If they had WANTED to shoot you,you would have already been shot!

Know how to GUARANTEE you that you will get shot? Try taking a gun away from someone pointing a gun at you.

This ain't rocket science,folks.

[sneakypete]

In a 2-point crossfire? The odds of success are infinitesimal. You'd have to get one gun, and take the other guy out, nearly at the same time. The best shot at it would be to knock the shotgun muzzle toward the other guy hoping an involuntary discharge takes him out... And then worry the rest of the way about the original guy. That is a zero gain.

Submit and wait for a better option.

@roamer_1

NEVERY PURPOSELY get into a fight you KNOW you can't win if you have any other choice.

Survival is more important than ego.

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1

NEVERY PURPOSELY get into a fight you KNOW you can't win if you have any other choice.

Survival is more important than ego.

That's entirely right. It's always an options game. If the percentage ain't there, There ain't no percentage. 

Wait for opportunity to present.

[Cyber Liberty]

@roamer_1

NEVERY PURPOSELY get into a fight you KNOW you can't win if you have any other choice.

Survival is more important than ego.

Concealed Carry 101:  Situational Awareness will prevent 99% of being likely to have to shoot somebody.  Be street-smart enough to avoid those circumstances.  Learn the cues of aggression.  And....walk away whenever possible, to avoid having your life's savings stripped from you.

[EdinVA]

@EdinVA

WHY would you imagine that????

The two men have already stopped you,pointed guns at you to make you stop,and have NOT shot at you,so WHY would they start shooting when they stopped you without shooting,and are asking you questions about a burglary ???

If they had WANTED to shoot you,you would have already been shot!

Know how to GUARANTEE you that you will get shot? Try taking a gun away from someone pointing a gun at you.

This ain't rocket science,folks.

@sneakypete
So, you know who these guys are and what their intent is?
You know for a fact that they are sane rational human beings and that if you submit they will, in fact, not harm you?
Great assumptions....

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You hold the "positive" "He did soemthing wrong" You need to prove that.

You lie.

I never said that.  Instead, the poster claimed he did nothing wrong.

Typical lib argument you make.

Lie, then accuse the other side of something that the liar in fact was guilty of.

[verga]

@verga

Big whoop! I have seen the video,and the fact that he didn't steal anything is related to there being nothing there worth stealing that was portable.

As for the kids on bicycles,another Big Whoop. Most kids are curious and just looking around to learn things.

Agreed,but physically attacking two men holding firearms pointed at him is good reason.

Or maybe you think he was trying to disarm them so they could have a debate?

Anybody foolish enough to attack TWO armed men that are just stopping and asking him questions NEEDS to be killed because whatever he is,"innocent" ain't it.

My position now, just like with Kavanaugh, Covington Catholic School, etc... is I want to see as much evidence as possible. To date I have sen three videos. The one where he was shot, and two more that claim to be him at the construction site (dates and times uncertain).
I have no idea what was said by either party, or what actions were taken of screen of the video, or before the guy with the video arrived.
I have learned from my own bitter experience that when I personally jump to a conclusion at least half the time I look really stupid.

So I will wait for more evidence.

[goatprairie]

I see a lot of the pro-McMichaels people are suggesting, without any evidence, that Arbery had committed a crime. And they are referring to Arbery walking into construction site and looking around without stealing anything. Gee, yeah that's a horrible crime I guess.
I guess then it's highly appropriate for two dopes, who aren't leos, to accost Arbery and either point a loaded gun at him or have it at the ready.
I don't think so. These two idiots saw a black guy running down the road and decided they, armed with loaded guns, to stop and question him.
What gives them the right to do that? If they can do that, without witnessing a crime committed by the person they stopped, then anybody, at least in Georgia, can stop anybody, and with loaded guns at the ready, stop someone and question him or her about some supposed crime.
In short, the McMichaels, who were not law officiers,  HAD NO IDEA WHAT ARBERY HAD DONE!!!
 Get it? Even if they had seen a video of Arbery stepping into a construction site, there was absolutely no reason to stop Arbery and question him carrying loaded guns. Again, they were NOT!! leos who are duly authorized to question suspicious persons.
They were completely in the wrong. Again, it might not be murder, but certainly at least manslaughter.

[verga]

Well, I guess if that was his justification for committing suicide.  Would you ever try to disarm somebody by grabbing the muzzle of their shotgun?

Funny you should ask this.
Two years ago at scout camp we had an (Unreported) autistic scout on the shot gun range. Went through the classroom pat of the class perfect.
Got up on the range my boss was standing face to face with the scout and put a single shell in to the semi auto shotgun. When he released the action and the round was chambered the scout got a crazy eyed look on his face. My boss grabbed the barrel with his right hand and told the student to let go. The scout didn't My boss cocked his left hand back and told him to let go or get knocked out. The kid relented, my boss grabbed the gun and backed away. 30 minutes later two scout masters got chewed new ones for not disclosing.
We have had similar incidents on two other occasions.
Last year I had a scout threaten to shoot everyone on the Archery range. You never know what someone is thinking when they get a weapon in their hand.

[Cyber Liberty]

Funny you should ask this.
Two years ago at scout camp we had an (Unreported) autistic scout on the shot gun range. Went through the classroom pat of the class perfect.
Got up on the range my boss was standing face to face with the scout and put a single shell in to the semi auto shotgun. When he released the action and the round was chambered the scout got a crazy eyed look on his face. My boss grabbed the barrel with his right hand and told the student to let go. The scout didn't My boss cocked his left hand back and told him to let go or get knocked out. The kid relented, my boss grabbed the gun and backed away. 30 minutes later two scout masters got chewed new ones for not disclosing.
We have had similar incidents on two other occasions.
Last year I had a scout threaten to shoot everyone on the Archery range. You never know what someone is thinking when they get a weapon in their hand.

Like Chris Kyle....

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

So, you know who these guys are and what their intent is?

@EdinVA

Absolutely! The first big clue is THEY DIDN'T JUST SHOOT HIM,THEY STOPPED HIM AND ASKED QUESTIONS.

Those are two clues a blind man can see.

You know for a fact that they are sane rational human beings and that if you submit they will, in fact, not harm you?

Yes,see the above.

Great assumptions....

Thank you! Comes from experience. I have had guns pointed at me,and pointed guns at other people. 

lf they wanted to shoot him,they would have shot him,not stopped him and asked questions.

How much more obvious could it be?

[sneakypete]

I don't think so. These two idiots saw a black guy running down the road and decided they, armed with loaded guns, to stop and question him.
 

@goatprairie

Ahhhh,the "Race Card"! I knew it would raise it's ugly head sooner or later.

I guess we are now supposed to apply "Affirmative Action Rules" to self-defense?

What is the quota? How many times can we allow an attacker to disarm us before we can defend ourselves from an ACTUAL PHYSICAL ATTACK?

7 out of 10?

3 out of 10?

How much do the numbers change if the attacker is a mulatto?

These rules need to be published so we all know them.

[Cyber Liberty]

@sneakypete

If you hadn't noticed, the Race Card has been in play since Shaun King (the fake black guy at the NAAC(L)P) broke the video on Twitter.

Yup.  This is a Twit spawned story.  Remember that next time some fellow tells you Social Media is harmless.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

If you hadn't noticed, the Race Card has been in play since Shaun King (the fake black guy at the NAAC(L)P) broke the video on Twitter.

Yup.  This is a Twit spawned story. Remember that next time some fellow tells you Social Media is harmless.

@Cyber Liberty

Just one more reason for my tag line,"Twitter is for Twits".