Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?

[Smokin Joe]

"Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?"

Well, I ain't no doctor, but I am pretty sure that stuff goes on the head end.
Hope that helps.

Well, I always wondered about pushing gunk into the lungs deeper. Old medical books (even before antibiotics) would use steam inhaled to loosen up the phlegm, sometimes percussion on the back, have the patient face  down, and even head down to help drain the glop out of their lungs. Changes in position (side to back to other side to belly) would help get the crud out. I see that as the objective, because you aren't getting much oxygen in if there is no place for it to go.

If there is some 'open' lung, sure, a ventilator can push oxygen in that might be more work (burn more O2 with the effort to breathe) than the patient would get out of it otherwise, but laying on your back the whole time seems to be more for the convenience of the staff than the health of the patient.

[roamer_1]

Well, I always wondered about pushing gunk into the lungs deeper. Old medical books (even before antibiotics) would use steam inhaled to loosen up the phlegm, sometimes percussion on the back, have the patient face  down, and even head down to help drain the glop out of their lungs. Changes in position (side to back to other side to belly) would help get the crud out. I see that as the objective, because you aren't getting much oxygen in if there is no place for it to go.

If there is some 'open' lung, sure, a ventilator can push oxygen in that might be more work (burn more O2 with the effort to breathe) than the patient would get out of it otherwise, but laying on your back the whole time seems to be more for the convenience of the staff than the health of the patient.

I get that... I wonder why they don't apply suction, considering they are puddling the snot anyhow, and have an open pipe to go through.   

[Smokin Joe]

I get that... I wonder why they don't apply suction, considering they are puddling the snot anyhow, and have an open pipe to go through.   

I figure it's way too easy to damage a lung that way.

[roamer_1]

I figure it's way too easy to damage a lung that way.

I don't know, one way or another... Just makes sense to throw in a sump pump and get it going. 

[Smokin Joe]

I don't know, one way or another... Just makes sense to throw in a sump pump and get it going. 

It'd be like pumping out a garbage bag in a can. Resists pressure pretty good, collapses under suction.

[roamer_1]

It'd be like pumping out a garbage bag in a can. Resists pressure pretty good, collapses under suction.

Not with an open pipe to daylight at the top...

Beats me. I don't know. Just seems to make sense.

[Smokin Joe]

Not with an open pipe to daylight at the top...

Beats me. I don't know. Just seems to make sense.

Think back to all the critters you have field dressed. Ever slice one of those lungs open out of curiosity?

The only place to pump from is at that pipe at the top. You might be able to 'rotor-rooter' the bronchi and some of the larger bronchioles with well directed light suction, but after that, that stuff gets fairly delicate. Put some suction on the fine stuff and it'd just do a bunch of damage.

[roamer_1]

Think back to all the critters you have field dressed. Ever slice one of those lungs open out of curiosity?

Yeah, I know how they work, generally speaking...

The only place to pump from is at that pipe at the top. You might be able to 'rotor-rooter' the bronchi and some of the larger bronchioles with well directed light suction, but after that, that stuff gets fairly delicate. Put some suction on the fine stuff and it'd just do a bunch of damage.

I don't suspect you need to go diggin around all that much... If the patient is laying flat, even if suction was even with the bottom of the inlet, at least the top-ward half of the lungs would remain above the 'submerged' line... find a downward facing bronchial path, and it might get even better... Like I said, I don't know what I am talking about - but it is an interesting technical problem that might be doable in this age of tiny cams to see what you are doing wrt placement. 

[aligncare]

Well, I always wondered about pushing gunk into the lungs deeper. Old medical books (even before antibiotics) would use steam inhaled to loosen up the phlegm, sometimes percussion on the back, have the patient face  down, and even head down to help drain the glop out of their lungs. Changes in position (side to back to other side to belly) would help get the crud out. I see that as the objective, because you aren't getting much oxygen in if there is no place for it to go.

If there is some 'open' lung, sure, a ventilator can push oxygen in that might be more work (burn more O2 with the effort to breathe) than the patient would get out of it otherwise, but laying on your back the whole time seems to be more for the convenience of the staff than the health of the patient.

When I was brand new in practice I had a patient, a retired navy pharmacist in WWII. He taught me something I have used successfully ever since with my patients, and with myself when I had developed bronchitis.

He told me medicines on board ship were often in short supply and so he had to innovate. When sailors came down with URI’s he would raid the kitchen for vinegar and boil a few ounces in a pan with about a cup of water. Then he would fashion a funnel out of cardboard and have the patient hover the large end of the funnel close over the pan of the boiling mixture and stick the small end deep in the back of the throat.

The combination of superheated acidic vapor, breathed (carefully—don’t burn yourself) directly against the infected tissue and deep into the lungs worked quickly to kill the infecting organism. Sailors would recover sometimes in hours or a day or two. I can tell you over 30 years advising patients, it works like a charm.

[Lando Lincoln]

When I was brand new in practice I had a patient, a retired navy pharmacist in WWII. He taught me something I have used successfully ever since with my patients, and with myself when I had developed bronchitis.

He told me medicines on board ship were often in short supply and so he had to innovate. When sailors came down with URI’s he would raid the kitchen for vinegar and boil a few ounces in a pan with about a cup of water. Then he would fashion a funnel out of cardboard and have the patient hover the large end of the funnel close over the pan of the boiling mixture and stick the small end deep in the back of the throat.

The combination of superheated acidic vapor, breathed (carefully—don’t burn yourself) directly against the infected tissue and deep into the lungs worked quickly to kill the infecting organism. Sailors would recover sometimes in hours or a day or two. I can tell you over 30 years advising patients, it works like a charm.

Thank you for that.  I'm taking it to the (memory) bank!

[Bigun]

Thank you for that.  I'm taking it to the (memory) bank!

Ditto!

[Elderberry]

Whenever I had a bad chest cold I'd take my biggest cook pot, fill it up with water and get it to boiling. I'd take that pot, set it on the floor, put a big dollop of Vicks in it, and then sit on a chair above it and tent myself under a blanket.

I wonder if you could use vinegar instead of the Vicks?

[aligncare]

Thank you for that.  I'm taking it to the (memory) bank!

  You are welcome. I forgot to mention that early initiation is always best, and it takes only a couple of minutes of breathing the mixture and then repeating as often as needed (every 15-20 minutes if severe) again be careful not to burn the back of the throat.

This natural home remedy works very well to mitigate symptoms, often in minutes, and gives the person’s immune system a chance to win the battle, against even streptococcus, without having to resort to drugs with their known side effects and adverse reactions.

By the way, apple cider vinegar seems to offer the best comfort in breathe-ability. Grain or wine vinegars feel harsher to breathe in.

[jafo2010]

One of the news programs indicated that only 20% on ventilators were surviving.  I would say, faced with all those people on ventilators, and 80% dying, I can clearly see they would think it not a viable therapy.  These doctors are not used to such high levels of failure.

What complicates the matter are the idiot media pukes, who make everything political.  Their anti bias against Hydroxy is a fine example how the media kills people.  And Dr. Fauci would be banished if I were Trump.  The man is so negative.

20% of doctors out there are not using Hydroxy.  So, what are they doing, and why are we not hearing about it in the worthless media?  People are dying because our medical folks are clueless what to do in part. 

BTW, thank you for the therapy of breathing the water/vinegar.  Good idea.

[Smokin Joe]

When I was brand new in practice I had a patient, a retired navy pharmacist in WWII. He taught me something I have used successfully ever since with my patients, and with myself when I had developed bronchitis.

He told me medicines on board ship were often in short supply and so he had to innovate. When sailors came down with URI’s he would raid the kitchen for vinegar and boil a few ounces in a pan with about a cup of water. Then he would fashion a funnel out of cardboard and have the patient hover the large end of the funnel close over the pan of the boiling mixture and stick the small end deep in the back of the throat.

The combination of superheated acidic vapor, breathed (carefully—don’t burn yourself) directly against the infected tissue and deep into the lungs worked quickly to kill the infecting organism. Sailors would recover sometimes in hours or a day or two. I can tell you over 30 years advising patients, it works like a charm.

Thankd for that info!
Maybe the fumes from heavy Tabasco use accomplish the same thing?

I always crave spicy food on the rare occasions when I am sick, and a favorite is french fries doused with Tabasco, much like others use Ketchup.

[Bigun]

One of the news programs indicated that only 20% on ventilators were surviving.  I would say, faced with all those people on ventilators, and 80% dying, I can clearly see they would think it not a viable therapy.  These doctors are not used to such high levels of failure.

That is because they do not realize what they are dealing with and the vents are exacerbating the real problem.

https://www.evolutamente.it/covid-19-ards-cell-free-hemoglobin-the-ascorbic-acid-connection/

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-covid-19-treatment-shows-100-percent-survival-rate-preliminary-data-624058

What complicates the matter are the idiot media pukes, who make everything political.  Their anti bias against Hydroxy is a fine example how the media kills people.  And Dr. Fauci would be banished if I were Trump.  The man is so negative.

 

20% of doctors out there are not using Hydroxy.  So, what are they doing, and why are we not hearing about it in the worthless media?  People are dying because our medical folks are clueless what to do in part. 

BTW, thank you for the therapy of breathing the water/vinegar.  Good idea.

And  again!

[Smokin Joe]

Well, Let's use the data from the docs who aren't using the Hydroxychloroquine/Zithromax/zinc sulfate cocktail, and weigh the various therapies against each other. For all those whining about there "not being any data" here's your chance!
I'm sure the numbers, outcomes, etc. can be reported without violating HIPPA as they already are, except for clinical therapies.