Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried

[goatprairie]

Will you at least throw me a bone and admit that you just don't care about the fact that countries with national healthcare systems are much happier with their healthcare on average? I'll concede everything else if you just admit that.

My wife grew up in England under the NHS. She's much happier with the American system.
My Brit in-laws, all four of them, have private insurance as well as the national system.
Why would they need private insurance if their NHS was so great and encompassing?
In France, even with their national plan, it is mandatory for adults to purchase private insurance to supplement the national plan.
Again, if the national plan is so great, why do they mandate private insurance supplemental coverage?

[libertybele]

I like it when we can agree on things. I'll deviate from typical "socialists" now with my opinion that we should be kicking in the kneecaps of the federal government and giving everything back to the states. The United States has approximately the same population and land mass of all of western Europe. That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation. States should operate like they are their own countries. If that happened and states could truly do things their own way, the free market of ideas would show us what can work and what can't. If one state is kicking ass while others are really struggling people will want to emulate the one that's doing well. Right now we're all just stepping all over each other and nothing gets done. Everybody is frustrated.

Amendment X of the U.S. Constitution:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

States do have certain rights.  If you are suggesting that the FEDS have taken certain powers away from the states, I would agree. There have been suggestions of calling a Convention of States; Article V.  That call has come close, but has not succeeded and in a climate where the state legislators have become more liberal, that would be extremely risky.

There is a reason for the U.S. Constitution and to blatantly ignore and not adhere to the Constitution has proven to be detrimental.

The Senate, House and the Executive branch each have their own powers and limitations for a reason.

Ted Cruz proposed allowing health care to be sold across state lines.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2017/06/05/ted-cruz-s-hope-for-selling-health-insurance-across-state-lines-gets-second-look-in-aca-overhaul/

Obamacare was a plan that was shoved down our throats -- though it was ruled constitutional -- it was in the eyes of many unconstitutional and turned out to be a disaster.

https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=34

Obviously bills have to be passed in both the House and the Senate and signed by the President in order to become law.

[EdinVA]

@libertybele

Ted Cruz proposed allowing health care to be sold across state lines.

I was involved in negotiating insurance for my company and the issue across state lines is the tort laws and insurance requirements vary between states, that is also why the rates are different.
 I don't believe congress can fix this and it may be we just have to live with it.

[libertybele]

@libertybele

I was involved in negotiating insurance for my company and the issue across state lines is the tort laws and insurance requirements vary between states, that is also why the rates are different.
 I don't believe congress can fix this and it may be we just have to live with it.

Thank you, I was not aware of that.

[Dexter]

I think it's only a matter of time until Uncle Sam completely swallows the states, and again only a matter of time until globalism does the same to the U.S. It's hard to envision another outcome even though I wish I could.

[EdinVA]

I think it's only a matter of time until Uncle Sam completely swallows the states, and again only a matter of time until globalism does the same to the U.S. It's hard to envision another outcome even though I wish I could.

Well, I suspect I will not be alone in making sure Sam gets a belly ache..

[musiclady]

I think it's only a matter of time until Uncle Sam completely swallows the states, and again only a matter of time until globalism does the same to the U.S. It's hard to envision another outcome even though I wish I could.

Then why, in heaven's name are you here on a Conservative board (where we all know better) fighting hard for the Government to take over our minds, our bodies and our souls by controlling health care??

[Dexter]

Then why, in heaven's name are you here on a Conservative board (where we all know better) fighting hard for the Government to take over our minds, our bodies and our souls by controlling health care??

You all argue with each other and it's equally futile. Why are you here? Why are any of us? We just want to bark at the moon.

If the government is going to win anyway I at least want our young people to have easier access to education and our old people to not have to worry about losing everything over a treatable ailment. People like Bernie aren't your enemy. There's a reason why he's all alone, and it's similar to the reason why Trump is all alone. It's because he's actually fighting for people. Our corporate run government isn't about that life. The DNC would ignore the vote and run Joe Biden anyway if Bernie got more delegates. They'd never let that man represent their party. The race was over before it began, and I think underneath it all Bernie probably suspects that.

[Dexter]

The vast majority of Republicans don't actually stand for smaller government. Us libertarian leaning types have no real representation in government. I guess I just don't have the will to fight that futile fight. I respect those of you that will go down swinging, but I will try to make the best of a bad situation instead.

[Dexter]

Well, I suspect I will not be alone in making sure Sam gets a belly ache..

Uncle Sam will crush you effortlessly, and any amount of retaliatory damage you inflict will only take the lives of young people caught up in a mess they didn't start and didn't want.

[EdinVA]

Uncle Sam will crush you effortlessly, and any amount of retaliatory damage you inflict will only take the lives of young people caught up in a mess they didn't start and didn't want.

So we should all just sit here quietly and take our medicine that we did not start and did not want?
I have the same rights you have, it is up to you to fight for yours....

[Dexter]

So we should all just sit here quietly and take our medicine that we did not start and did not want?
I have the same rights you have, it is up to you to fight for yours....

I'm not a martyr. I'm going to live and enjoy my life, not die pointlessly while trying to dodge drones in a forest.

[EdinVA]

I'm not a martyr. I'm going to live and enjoy my life, not die pointlessly while trying to dodge drones in a forest.

Take notes....

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[Dexter]

Take notes....

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I would like to meet my grandchildren someday.

[EdinVA]

I would like to meet my grandchildren someday.

@Dexter
Just meeting your grandkids is not enough, it is what you leave them.
Anyone can make babies, it is more important to leave them a country that they can give to their kids.

[roamer_1]

There's a problem though Roamer...

I'm trying to work within the reality that exists when I float the idea that maybe some kind of national healthcare system would be tolerable and make things better.

Uncle Sam isn't going to give that power back. Of course it would be best that way, but can we really get there? For example do any of you really think Texas could secede from the union? Uncle Sam would start murdering people by the millions if necessary. We are trapped. I sometimes show support for nationalism because I see globalism as the biggest enemy, but in truth if we won that fight I'd start fighting nation power with state power, and then state power with county power. I hate the government as much as or more than any of you. They won though. They have really big guns and they're not afraid to use them. What do we do? Voting helps but ultimately it's an illusion in the sense that there's no freaking way the fed will let go of power peacefully.

Aw c'mon now... That is wholly disingenuous.

There is NO WAY one can hold both ideas in grand acceptance at the same time. I cry bullcrap.

[Dexter]

Aw c'mon now... That is wholly disingenuous.

There is NO WAY one can hold both ideas in grand acceptance at the same time. I cry bullcrap.

I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy. I can understand and agree with two sides of an argument. The world is complicated Roamer. I do think you're right, but I think you're going to lose, and I'm not going to fight with you brother. I've got too much to live for.

[Cyber Liberty]

I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy. I can understand and agree with two sides of an argument. The world is complicated Roamer. I do think you're right, but I think you're going to lose, and I'm not going to fight with you brother. I've got too much to live for.

Possibly the most gutless post of the thread.

[musiclady]

You all argue with each other and it's equally futile. Why are you here? Why are any of us? We just want to bark at the moon.

If the government is going to win anyway I at least want our young people to have easier access to education and our old people to not have to worry about losing everything over a treatable ailment. People like Bernie aren't your enemy. There's a reason why he's all alone, and it's similar to the reason why Trump is all alone. It's because he's actually fighting for people. Our corporate run government isn't about that life. The DNC would ignore the vote and run Joe Biden anyway if Bernie got more delegates. They'd never let that man represent their party. The race was over before it began, and I think underneath it all Bernie probably suspects that.

There is a huge difference between those of us who debate issues of Conservatism and you, who are here advocating a government takeover of healthcare and boasting about the benefits of socialism.

To put us in the same category is at the very least disingenuous.

The fact that the DNC doesn’t want to openly run a Communist is neither here nor there.

[roamer_1]

I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy. I can understand and agree with two sides of an argument. The world is complicated Roamer. I do think you're right, but I think you're going to lose, and I'm not going to fight with you brother. I've got too much to live for.

No without liberty you don't... So much for these (brilliant) words:

"That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation." - @Dexter

Sooner or later, you gotta draw a hard line.

[libertybele]

You all argue with each other and it's equally futile. Why are you here? Why are any of us? We just want to bark at the moon.

If the government is going to win anyway I at least want our young people to have easier access to education and our old people to not have to worry about losing everything over a treatable ailment. People like Bernie aren't your enemy. There's a reason why he's all alone, and it's similar to the reason why Trump is all alone. It's because he's actually fighting for people. Our corporate run government isn't about that life. The DNC would ignore the vote and run Joe Biden anyway if Bernie got more delegates. They'd never let that man represent their party. The race was over before it began, and I think underneath it all Bernie probably suspects that.

You said it.  "Libertarian".  Dr. Ron Paul is considered a libertarian, yet he was very much an advocate for following the Constitution -- I have no problem with following the Constitution.  He was also a proponent for smaller government.  In his eyes, he saw that government is expanding, taxes are increasing, and basic freedoms are disappearing. He is correct. 

You can't have socialized medicine without increasing the size of government period.

He also pointed out the problem long ago with our 'monetary' association with China.  He was correct.  Trump tried in part to correct that; look now at the present day threat from China.  Expanding government (socialism) didn't work.

Look you are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to post here.  Don't expect the majority of us in here to ever be convinced that socialism in any way, shape or form, will be better.  In fact, most of us are fighting for our politicians to adhere to the Constitution and to get back to the very principles upon which this country was founded.  Socialized medicine just doesn't fit that criteria.  We are a REPUBLIC period.

[Hoodat]

I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy.

How can you recognize a conflict in your own philosophy when you are incapable of recognizing 'truth'?

[truth_seeker]

I would like to meet my grandchildren someday.

or.....

"Better Red, than Dead."

[Dexter]

No without liberty you don't... So much for these (brilliant) words:

"That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation." - @Dexter

Sooner or later, you gotta draw a hard line.

I've already drawn my line.

I would go to and agree with extremes while talking about it, and would follow through with those words if there wasn't an extremely powerful government that would kill me first. That's not the case though.

[roamer_1]

I've already drawn my line.

I would go to and agree with extremes while talking about it, and would follow through with those words if there wasn't an extremely powerful government that would kill me first. That's not the case though.

Nah... I don't buy it.