Author Topic: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower  (Read 1174 times)

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Offline EasyAce

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Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« on: February 20, 2020, 09:06:54 pm »
In 1962, Mets pitcher Jay Hook said the pennant-winning ’61 Reds stole signs through their scoreboard. But don’t call him a whistleblower, exactly.
By Yours Truly
https://calltothepen.com/2020/02/20/new-york-mets-jay-hook-wont-call-himself-sign-stealing-whistleblower/



It might surprise his critics now, but Mike Fiers actually isn’t the first incumbent baseball player to blow the whistle on a pennant- or World Series-winning team’s off-field-based technological sign-stealing. Almost six decades ago, another pitcher blew the whistle on a pennant winner's espionage. Except that he won’t exactly call himself a whistleblower.

“A writer asked me some questions, and I answered,” says Jay Hook, who pitched for the 1961 Cincinnati Reds before joining the embryonic New York Mets as an expansion draft pick, by telephone from his northern Michigan farm. “I didn’t seek him out.”

The story by multiple writers hit the United Press International wire in March 1962. It said the ’61 Reds, who won the pennant by four games over the Los Angeles Dodgers, had personnel crawling into Crosley Field’s walk-in, hand-operated scoreboard in left-center field. Inside, they’d train binoculars toward the batting area and pick up opposing catchers’ signs, then call them to the Reds’ dugout by telephone for relay to the batter’s box.

When Paul Dickson wrote his 2003 history of sign-stealing gamesmanship, The Hidden Language of Baseball: How Signs and Sign-Stealing Have Influenced the Course of Our National Pastime (a second edition was published last September), he cited that UPI story and a quote from Hook saying he went public about the Reds’ espionage because “I want to protect the Mets against that sort of thing. I think it’s wrong.”

A friendly 83-year-old man who looks about two decades younger, Hook doesn’t remember saying those words exactly. “There must have been some questions about the Reds,” he says now, his amiable conversation punctuated with frequent chuckles. “That’s what was put in the papers, but I’m not sure I said that. I did say to that writer that I didn’t want to get in the middle of that story.”

Fiers’ whistleblowing has brought him six parts high praise for heroism in breaking the code of the clubhouse to expose the Astros’ extralegal sign-stealing and half a dozen parts high fury for being what some call in polite terms a rat fink bastard. Hook says he didn’t face anything such as that kind of venom after the UPI story hit the ground running.

Dickson cited another wire story in which Cincinnati Reds pitcher-turned-scout Brooks Lawrence denied flatly that the ’61 Reds were up to any scoreboard espionage, and manager Fred Hutchinson was quoted as saying, “That’s Hook’s story. He’s stuck with it.” Hook doesn’t quite remember Hutchinson saying that. But he does remember a conversation he had with Hutchinson during spring 1962.

“The Reds had some comments about it,” he says. “I went and talked to Fred Hutchinson about it after that story. He probably said, if I remember right, I think he said something like things like this come about, and we’ll have some comments about it, and you’ll have some comments about it, but don’t worry about it.”

Around the same time, an Associated Press story by eventual J.G. Spink award winner Joe Reichler became the first known published story to suggest the 1951 New York Giants had what was eventually proven true in deep detail, a sign-stealing operation based in the Polo Grounds’ clubhouse behind center field to enable their staggering comeback from thirteen games out of first place to forcing the fabled pennant playoff with the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Then-commissioner Ford C. Frick took none of the action today’s fans and numerous players demand of the Astros’ 2017 World Series title, refusing to vacate the ’51 Giants’ pennant. (The Giants lost the World Series to the New York Yankees in six games.)

Giants manager Leo Durocher instigated the scheme by having coach Herman Franks take reserve infielder Hank Schenz‘s hand-held Wollensak spyglass to that clubhouse behind center. Franks would get the opposing signs through it, then buzz the Giants bullpen with the stolen sign, and reserve catcher Sal Yvars most likely would send the batters who wanted the signs a flicker of light to indicate what was coming.

The entire plan was finally revealed in deep detail by Wall Street Journal writer Joshua Prager, first in his paper and then in his book, The Echoing Green: The Untold Story of Bobby Thomson, Ralph Branca, and the Shot Heard ‘Round the World. Hook says he had no idea when he became a Met, playing in the Polo Grounds, that the ’51 Giants had executed such an elaborate-for-its-era scheme.

Hall of Famer Hank Greenberg eventually admitted in his posthumously-published memoir that the pennant-winning 1940 Detroit Tigers were sign-stealing from the seats behind the outfield via pitcher Tommy Bridges‘ hunting rifle’s telescopic sight. Eddie Robinson, first baseman for the 1948 Cleveland Indians, admitted in his own memoir that those Indians committed similar espionage through the Municipal Stadium scoreboard.

The Tigers lost their World Series to the Reds; the Indians beat the Boston Braves in their Series. Neither of their memoirs, published during Bud Selig’s reign as commissioner, provoked thoughts in Selig about vacating their titles, either.

“I really wasn’t aware of the schemes that I’ve seen published,” Hook says. “As a pitcher, when a runner got on second base, we would change the signs. We were aware that people tried to steal the signs but that was part of the game if a runner was on second. You had to be careful. When [UPI] approached me, I knew what had happened [with the Reds] but I didn’t know all that other stuff.”

Hook’s place in Mets history is secured by his having started and won the first-ever Mets victory, a 9-1 win over the Pittsburgh Pirates that ended their life-opening nine-game losing streak. “I still get seven, eight, nine letters a month with cards in them,” he says, “and after that whole period of time it’s amazing people would still remember.”

He didn’t pitch much for the ’61 Reds after suffering a bout with the mumps that April, and he didn’t get to pitch in the World Series. (The Reds lost to the Yankees in five.) He had his occasional moments, from a respectable 1960 season in Cincinnati to a remarkable 1963 duel as a Met, near on September 2, 1963.

The boyish-looking righthander faced the Reds in the Polo Grounds. He went the distance against his former teammate Jim Maloney and lost, 1-0, with Maloney striking out thirteen while Hook settled for five strikeouts and keeping Hall of Famer Frank Robinson hitless. The game’s only run came in the top of the first, when Pete Rose leading off hit the first pitch into the seats. It was three decades since that had last happened in a major league game.

A graduate of Northwestern University, with a bachelor’s in engineering and a Master’s in thermodynamics (he chuckles when I call it, mistakenly, thermonuclear physics), Hook ended his baseball career after the 1964 season. He went to work for Chrysler in product development, subsequently moving to a similar job at Rockwell International, then to Masco Corporation and others, before retiring early, becoming a professor at his alma mater, and buying the farm where he and his wife, Joan, still live.

Hook once described to New York Times writer Robert Lipsyte the exact science behind a curve ball’s movement and behavior. Lipsyte’s article, “Why a Curve Ball Curves,” eventually provided the title for a Popular Mechanics anthology about the sciences of sports. Once, after Hook was knocked out of a Mets game early and talked to Lipsyte in the clubhouse, Mets manager Casey Stengel happened by and cracked, to Hook’s continuing amusement, “You know, if only Hook could do what he knows!”

The former pitcher says he didn’t think about anything like the ’61 Reds or anyone else taking sign stealing from on-field gamesmanship to off-field cheating until one of his daughters called to say, “Dad, you’re in Sports Illustrated.” (The Hooks are parents of four, grandparents of thirteen, and step-grandparents of two.) She told her father he was mentioned in an article about sign-stealing history that mentioned the 1961 Reds.

“You know, I really have not spent a lot of time trying to evaluate the significance. I know the significance of it,” says Hook, who acknowledges he follows high school baseball mostly unless he catches the Show on television. “Back in the day of Babe Ruth and others, people were always trying to get a leg up, somehow. That’s probably where it began. But I felt bad for the guys who might have lost their jobs” because of the Astros’ sophisticated espionage. “That’s too bad.”

That was one time Hook didn’t chuckle.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 02:22:40 pm »
Not to play Astros fan "what-about-ism", (and I am hearing the spectrum from "everybody does it" to "hang-em high") but there was an interesting article in the Houston Chronicle yesterday.
It was actually a slide show of all 30 teams, and how they cheated in one form or another, from now, back over the past 2-3 decades, the not too distant past.
Sign stealing shenanigans , PED usage, pitchers doctoring baseballs, etc...

Interesting, that the only team they didn't have anything on is the Washington Nationals..............

...........except that they did, when they were the Montreal Expos.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 02:44:00 pm »
Not to play Astros fan "what-about-ism", (and I am hearing the spectrum from "everybody does it" to "hang-em high") but there was an interesting article in the Houston Chronicle yesterday.
It was actually a slide show of all 30 teams, and how they cheated in one form or another, from now, back over the past 2-3 decades, the not too distant past.
Sign stealing shenanigans , PED usage, pitchers doctoring baseballs, etc...

Interesting, that the only team they didn't have anything on is the Washington Nationals..............

...........except that they did, when they were the Montreal Expos.

IMO,

1) The entire Houston Astros Franchise should be suspended for an entire season and forced to pay their players.

2) A matching dollar figure of total payroll will be donated to Gary Sinese's  Foundation, Homes for disable veterans., etc..

3) Umpires are forbidden to warn ASTROS' opposing pitcher until their lineup has its 1st PA (plate appearance)...for the entire 2020 season.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 03:20:58 pm »
IMO,

1) The entire Houston Astros Franchise should be suspended for an entire season and forced to pay their players.

2) A matching dollar figure of total payroll will be donated to Gary Sinese's  Foundation, Homes for disable veterans., etc..

3) Umpires are forbidden to warn ASTROS' opposing pitcher until their lineup has its 1st PA (plate appearance)...for the entire 2020 season.

You should change #3 to say 'until their entire lineup has been HBP.'  You wouldn't want to do it all in the first inning and walk in 6 runs.
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 03:34:36 pm »
You should change #3 to say 'until their entire lineup has been HBP.'  You wouldn't want to do it all in the first inning and walk in 6 runs.

Nope...quite simply, this fear being instilled could go 3 innings into the game.

Trying to protect half the plate is hard enough without league-sanctioned head-hunting.    :cool:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 04:10:26 pm »
IMO,

1) The entire Houston Astros Franchise should be suspended for an entire season and forced to pay their players.
Not going to happen.

2) A matching dollar figure of total payroll will be donated to Gary Sinese's  Foundation, Homes for disable veterans., etc..
Justin Verlander did just that, but I do not know the charity he gave it to.

3) Umpires are forbidden to warn ASTROS' opposing pitcher until their lineup has its 1st PA (plate appearance)...for the entire 2020 season.
A bad idea.

Oh boy...........

There are only 10 players remaining from that 2017 team on the roster now.
Only 6 of them are offensive players, the other four are pitchers.

Reddick
Springer
Gurriel
Altuve
Correa
Bregman

(1) What do you do with the others around the league, and some who have retired, who were part of that squad?
Does Gonzalez get kicked off the Twins?
Will Smith off of the Nationals?
What should the Dodgers do with Mookie Betts and David Price when that report comes out?

(2) According to Correa, and one source who logged all of the 2017 trash can banging incidents, Reddick and Altuve were not involved, leaving only 4 remaining Astros who took part in this.
Are you going afte the pitchers as well?
The guy who broke the story was part of this team and didn't say anything in 2017 also.
What becomes of Fiers?

(3) Do you retroactively go back and punish, for starters, the most well-known, the "shot heard round the world" 1951 team?, The 2009 Yankees? Were does it stop?

(4) MLB or MLBPA both say this is uncharted territory, that no punishment has ever been decided for sign stealing, electronic, or real time or any at all, for that matter.
Now everyone is an expert and has a take, after the fact, so it seems.
Now for my expert analysis  :cool::
Now would be the perfect time, before the 2021 agreement goes into place, for the MPLPA and MLB get together and set up rules, guidelines, punishments, etc.

(5) Be careful what you wish for.
Is injuring players the answer?
The Astros have a few guys that can bring it 95+ also.
It is a crazy idea, and it should get pitchers suspended, because rules do already exist for that behavior.

(6) If you keep poking that bear, it's liable to turn on you.
Best to let this lie.
If the Astros get pushed into a corner, they just might release other names and other teams that they have observed doing this, some of them may be where they got the idea from.
Cora, Beltran, and Luhnow, came from somewhere else.
Perhaps part of their immunity is silence for not going after other teams, but there could come a point, if pushed too far.

(7) I don't remember any level of outrage that has surpassed this, in any other sports scandal that I recall.
Maybe the O.J. verdict, but that really wasn't sports related.
Social Media is making everybody extremist now.
Crank up the Outrage machine!!! :cool:

My Gosh! The FBI is investigating the Angels over a player overdosing on drugs, allegedly supplied by a member of their own organization, yet the no one is raising near the same level of outrage.


Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 04:28:13 pm »
I pulled this quote from an article I was reading:

"We are in the middle of the feeding frenzy portion of this Astros cheating thing. Every crisis has one. It’s the point where everybody — the media, the others in the industry, everybody — piles on and tries to push the story as far as it can go. One person suggests taking away the 2017 World Series, the next person suggest barring the Astros from postseason play for three years, the next person suggests giving all the players involved a one-year suspension, the next person suggests it should be a five-year suspension, the next person suggests pulling the Astros off television, the next person suggests taking the Astros away from Houston, on and on, there will be no end to the wrath, not until this portion of the crisis fades.

And it is the responsibility of MLB to try and get to the point where the crisis starts fading. There’s only so much the commissioner Rob Manfred and his people can do … but my argument here is that they have to do EVERYTHING THEY CAN to get baseball moving forward."

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2020, 04:48:43 pm »
(2) According to Correa, and one source who logged all of the 2017 trash can banging incidents, Reddick and Altuve were not involved, leaving only 4 remaining Astros who took part in this.
@GrouchoTex
I've seen that fan's analysis. He went hunting for video of 2017 Astros home games and was able to come up with about sixty games. The three lowest percentages of bangs on the pitches they saw in those games went like this:

Jose Altuve---He saw 886 pitches in those games, there were 24 bangs for stolen signs (which he may or may not actually have wanted in the first place), for 2.7 percent.

Josh Reddick---He saw 757 pitches in those games, there were 28 bangs involved, for 3.7 percent.

Tony Kemp---Only in a couple of April games before going back to the minors and being a September callup. Now with the Oakland A's, Kemp told reporters he actually asked not to be given stolen signs. Apparently, his request was granted: he saw 23 pitches in the games for which video was available and never got banged even once.

The guy who broke the story was part of this team and didn't say anything in 2017 also.
What becomes of Fiers?
It's difficult for a lot of people to conceive, but this I know for fact: Fiers didn't just decide out of nowhere to blow the whistle. According to a lot of baseball writers, there were players talking to them about the prospect of the Astros' illicit electronic sign stealing for two years---but nobody was willing to put their name on it to those writers. That's how powerful the sanctity of the clubhouse thing runs in baseball (and other team sports), just as (I've used the comparison before. referencing Frank Serpico, David Durk, and the New York Police Department) it does in even the most corrupt police departments.

Fiers himself first tried to fight it from the inside. When he moved to the Tigers for 2018 he warned them to beware the Astro Intelligence Agency; he did likewise when he was traded to the A's that August. As long as nobody was willing to go on the public record about it, the writers could probably do nothing beyond maybe writing a single opinion column that would be forgotten as quickly as it was written. The same players telling the writers off the record likely brought it to their teams' front offices, but we know now that more than a few teams filed complaints with the commissioner's office and saw those complaints go nowhere. It's very likely that Fiers finally spoke up to Ken Rosenthal and Evan Dillich of The Athletic when he realised no teams' complaints including and especially the A's complaints were getting traction.

(3) Do you retroactively go back and punish, for starters, the most well-known, the "shot heard round the world" 1951 team?, The 2009 Yankees? Were does it stop?
Not to mention . . .

The 1911-1914 Philadelphia Athletics, who were thought to have had someone atop a building with a sight line toward Shibe Park's home plate, used binoculars, and then used a weather vane atop the building to indicate fastball or curve ball.

The 1940 Detroit Tigers---They were stealing signs from the outfield grandstands courtesy of the telescopic sight on pitcher Tommy Bridges's hunting rifle and won the pennant. (But lost the World Series in seven to the Cincinnati Reds.) No less than Hall of Famer Hank Greenberg owned up to the scheme in his posthumously published memoir; the commissioner at the time the memoir was published, Bud Selig, took an amazing pass on retroactive justice.

The 1948 Cleveland Indians---No less than owner Bill Veeck exposed their scheme in his memoir Veeck---as in Wreck. He got only the detail of the instrument used wrong: it was actually a handheld telescope belonging to Hall of Famer Bob Feller (who'd acquired it when he was in the Navy during World War II aboard a gun boat). Feller eventually admitted to a longtime Cleveland Plain-Dealer writer, Russell Schneider, that assorted Tribesmen would get into the old hand-operated scoreboard in Municipal Stadium (a.k.a. the Mistake on the Lake) and train that telescope on the opposing catchers. Veeck said the Indians started that espionage down the stretch after falling four and a half out of first place.

Veeck's memoir was published in 1962. Then-commissioner Ford Frick did the same as he did when the first revelations about the 1951 Giants and Jay Hook's revelation about the 1961 Reds came forth---jack, diddley, and squat.

"What the hey," Feller was quoted as saying to Schneider, "all's fair in love and war and winning a pennant."

The first baseman on those 1948 Indians, Eddie Robinson, also copped to the sign-stealing operation in his eventual memoir, which was also published when Selig was commissioner. Selig did the same as he did regarding the 1940 Tigers---nada.

(4) MLB or MLBPA both say this is uncharted territory, that no punishment has ever been decided for sign stealing, electronic, or real time or any at all, for that matter.
They seem to forget that Manfred slapped the Red Sox with a heavy fine over their 2017 AppleWatch sign theft and, concurrently, the Yankees over an extra (and extralegal) dugout phone the Red Sox said they were using for a little sign espionage. Hence Manfred's original memo declaring off-field based electronic or other device abetted sign-stealing was verboten.

They also seemed unaware that, back when the leagues operated as semi-independent entities, the National League actually put into their rules a stricture outlawing device-abetted off-field based sign stealing . . . in 1960, a year before the 1961 Reds got cute. (The American League did likewise a couple of years later, I think.) Making it just as astonishing that then-NL president Warren Giles did nothing after Jay Hook's revelation.

One big problem I see with this entire Astrogate mess---Manfred shouldn't have stopped at handing down mere directives. He should have convened a rules committee right after the Red Sox's AppleWatch incident and had them write it into the rule book, once and for all time, that electronic and other device-abetted, off-field-based sign-stealing, is prohibited, and developed proportionate punishment for violating it.

By the way, when it came out that an Angels employee provided Tyler Skaggs with the drugs that killed him last summer, it dominated the sports news in southern California and a few other places for several days. Skaggs may have had an addiction that began with the first of a few surgeries he'd undergone in his career, when he was likely prescribed a particular drug (I forget now which one) erroneously. His family is armed and ready with legal action from what I've read. Nobody seems to know yet whether it was more than one Angels employee who helped him get the stuff, and the one in question resigned from the organisation around the time of Skaggs's death.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:51:32 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2020, 07:11:55 pm »
(2) @EasyAce

Story is that Altuve got upset when they would bang the trash cans, and went after the bangers and told them to stop (during his at bats anyway).
Reddick told the that it was hard enough to concentrate without all that banging, so they stopped.

Lucroy (Marisnick's old friend...)backs up the story that the A's tried to let MLB know about the banging (before he went public) but no one who could have done something about it then did anything about it.
There is an interesting article written by Jeff Passan in 2017 about this. At the time, he took an, "it's no big deal approach" to the whole thing.
Today he's just the opposite.
Whatever keeps your name in the press, I guess.

(3) Which re-enforces my point to a degree. No one has really suffered the consequences of illegal sign stealing.
Perhaps what is making this a bigger deal than in the past is social media, new and improved, with instant outrage.


(4) I agree with your statement, a better idea than mine:

He should have convened a rules committee right after the Red Sox's AppleWatch incident and had them write it into the rule book, once and for all time, that electronic and other device-abetted, off-field-based sign-stealing, is prohibited, and developed proportionate punishment for violating it.

Skaggs's death was big news, for about 3 days here.
I hope they get to the bottom of that.
A sad story, addiction is never an easy life.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 07:21:04 pm by GrouchoTex »

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 07:13:44 pm »
"According to the unwritten rules of baseball, stealing the signs that are given by the third base coach, or those of the catcher by a baserunner on second base, is acceptable, and it is up to the team giving the signs to protect them so they are not stolen."

According to the unwritten rules of baseball, if it is acceptable for a runner on second base to try and steal signs from the catcher or given to the catcher from the third base coach, why aren't other forms of sign stealing acceptable?
I notice that during football games coaches will put a  play diagram or other piece of paper/plastic up to their face to hide their lips when they give instructions to the off. team. Nobody gets much exercised about the fact that the opposing team will try to read his lips or use other methods to discover what play he's calling.
Even if a baseball player knows what's coming, he still has to hit the pitch. Nolan Ryan mostly threw fastballs. Few could hit his fastball. Everybody knew Hoyt Wilhelm was going to throw a knuckleball, but they still couldn't hit it.
Maybe baseball teams should come up with better ways to send signals to the pitcher.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 07:44:40 pm by goatprairie »

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 07:19:04 pm »
@goatprairie

The genie is now out of the bottle, or the toothpaste is out of the tube, whichever metaphor you like.
I would think, just as technology has driven this latest scandal, it should also be used to solve it.
Electronic means, like earpieces, or something else , can have the signals relayed between manager (or coach) catcher and pitcher.
The technology exist.

Or is the used to say at the beginning of The Six Million Dollar Man,

We have the technology..........

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 08:54:27 pm »
No one has really suffered the consequences of illegal sign stealing.
Perhaps what is making this a bigger deal than in the past is social media, new and improved, with instant outrage.
@GrouchoTex
I can't help thinking about this: The 1951 Dodgers suspected Durocher's Giants were up to something. Cookie Lavagetto, '47 World Series hero turned coach, actually thought about bringing binoculars to the Dodger dugout to try catching the Giants in the act in the Polo Grounds. An umpire confiscated the binoculars. (Cracked Thomas Boswell, writing about Joshua Prager's final expose: "Why, it wouldn't be fair to use binoculars to expose the telescopic cheaters!")

Now, I wonder---if there'd been a Twitterverse then, can you imagine the already nuclear Dodger-Giant rivalry exploding all over social media?


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Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 09:01:01 pm »
According to the unwritten rules of baseball, if it is acceptable for a runner on second base to try and steal signs from the catcher or given to the catcher from the third base coach, why aren't other forms of sign stealing acceptable?
Perhaps because it's expected from on the field but not always detected or expected when it comes from off the field. There isn't a baseball person alive who'd object to on-field gamesmanship. About off-field-based cheating, perhaps this from a certain Hall of Famer might clarify further:

Quote
There is another form of sign stealing which is reprehensible and should be so regarded. That is where mechanical devices worked from outside sources, such as the use of field glasses, mirrors and so on, are used . . . Signal-tipping on the fields is not against the rules, while the use of outside devices is against all the laws of baseball and the playing rules. It is obviously unfair.

That, sirs and ladies, came from Ty Cobb, in 1926.

Allow me, too, to remind you about this:

Quote
Acts of cheating are not the result of impulse, borne of frustration or anger or zeal as violence is, but are rather acts of a cool, deliberate, premeditated kind. Unlike acts of impulse or violence, intended at the moment to vent frustration or abuse another, acts of cheating are intended to alter the very conditions of play to favour one person. They are secretive, covert acts that strike at and seek to undermine the basic foundation of any contest declaring the winner—that all participants play under identical rules and conditions. Acts of cheating destroy that necessary foundation and thus strike at the essence of a contest. They destroy faith in the games’ integrity and fairness; if participants and spectators alike cannot assume integrity and fairness and proceed from there, the contest cannot in its essence exist . . . Cheating is contrary to the whole purpose of playing to determine a winner fairly and cannot be simply contained; if the game is to flourish and engage public confidence, cheating must be clearly condemned with an eye to expunging it. (Emphasis added.)

That was A. Bartlett Giamatti, upholding the suspension of pitcher Kevin Gross for being caught scuffing balls, when Giamatti was still the president of the National League.



"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 09:33:18 pm »
@GrouchoTex
I can't help thinking about this: The 1951 Dodgers suspected Durocher's Giants were up to something. Cookie Lavagetto, '47 World Series hero turned coach, actually thought about bringing binoculars to the Dodger dugout to try catching the Giants in the act in the Polo Grounds. An umpire confiscated the binoculars. (Cracked Thomas Boswell, writing about Joshua Prager's final expose: "Why, it wouldn't be fair to use binoculars to expose the telescopic cheaters!")

Now, I wonder---if there'd been a Twitterverse then, can you imagine the already nuclear Dodger-Giant rivalry exploding all over social media?

ABSOLUTELY!
It would have been epic, and left this whole fiasco we are talking about here, in the dust.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 09:42:32 pm »
I can't think of a better commissioner in my lifetime than A. Bartlett Giamatti.
There hasn't been one that spoke so eloquently.

“[Baseball] breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall all alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.”

This broken-hearted city full of Astros fans is waiting for spring, when everything else begins again.
Waiting for that greatest of stories, found in great literature, found in the Bible.
Hoping against hope for
....
Rebirth and Redemption.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2020, 12:10:38 am »
I can't think of a better commissioner in my lifetime than A. Bartlett Giamatti.
There hasn't been one that spoke so eloquently.

“[Baseball] breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall all alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.”

This broken-hearted city full of Astros fans is waiting for spring, when everything else begins again.
Waiting for that greatest of stories, found in great literature, found in the Bible.
Hoping against hope for
....
Rebirth and Redemption.
@GrouchoTex
You need this book . . .



"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Jay Hook won't call himself a whistleblower
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2020, 12:12:11 am »
ABSOLUTELY!
It would have been epic, and left this whole fiasco we are talking about here, in the dust.
@GrouchoTex
People forget now that Leo Durocher was quite the celebrity in his own right in those years. (My old-time radio collection includes several guest shots he made on shows like Fred Allen's, Jack Benny's, and Tallulah Bankhead's splashy variety offering The Big Show.) He'd have guaranteed how epic it was.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline GrouchoTex

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