Cross targeted by atheists will remain standing on Florida public property

[EdinVA]

The federal appeals court ruled the cross is constitutional, noting it has become “embedded in the fabric of the Pensacola community” and that removing it could “strike many as aggressively hostile to religion.”
Four individuals, represented by the American Humanist Association and the Freedom From Religion Foundation, sued the city in 2016, demanding the cross be torn down.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-cross-pensacola-christian-atheist-court

[PeteS in CA]

IIRC, this was the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. So there's still the USSC for the haters to appeal to, which I think they will.

[skeeter]

I have a special antipathy for these people. NO ONE was ever hurt by a cross standing on public property, yet they are relentless in their efforts to remove them.

What kind of mind obsesses about removing a symbol of love and redemption?

[verga]

I have a special antipathy for these people. NO ONE was ever hurt by a cross standing on public property, yet they are relentless in their efforts to remove them.

What kind of mind obsesses about removing a symbol of love and redemption?

These are the same people that are triggered by picture of a firearm, need safe spaces, and still sit sipping hot chocolater in their mommies basement while wearing a onesie.

[Hoodat]

Four individuals, represented by the American Humanist Association

Humanism is a religion.

[berdie]

I have a special antipathy for these people. NO ONE was ever hurt by a cross standing on public property, yet they are relentless in their efforts to remove them.

What kind of mind obsesses about removing a symbol of love and redemption?

Minds that have way, way too much time on their hands. The rest are working and don't have time to get "triggered".

[sneakypete]

I have a special antipathy for these people. NO ONE was ever hurt by a cross standing on public property, yet they are relentless in their efforts to remove them.

What kind of mind obsesses about removing a symbol of love and redemption?

@skeeter

You mean symbols of Islam? How about Satan Worshippers? The "spaceship crowd",whose title I can't remember? Or any other group of loons that gather around a coffee table and decide to call themselves a religion

This is America,bubba. If you let one religion do it,you have to allow ALL "religions" to do it.

I understand you are thinking from the POV of Christianity,but there are literally hundreds of "religions" in this country. Are you ready to allow them all to put up symbols of their faith on public property?

[skeeter]

@skeeter

You mean symbols of Islam? How about Satan Worshippers? The "spaceship crowd",whose title I can't remember? Or any other group of loons that gather around a coffee table and decide to call themselves a religion

This is America,bubba. If you let one religion do it,you have to allow ALL "religions" to do it.

I understand you are thinking from the POV of Christianity,but there are literally hundreds of "religions" in this country. Are you ready to allow them all to put up symbols of their faith on public property?

No, I'm not. Nor am I proposing to put up crosses all over the landscape.

I think anyone who makes it their life's work to take down monuments put up decades ago in this once predominantly Christian country to honor fallen soldiers or the nation's sacrifice in general because they, in their warped estimation, feel its constitutes a threat of some kind is demented and should seek help. But we shouldn't be compelled honor their wishes.

[mortarman]

These so-called Atheists are in all reality Faux Atheists. I can get away with calling them out because not only am I a true Atheist, butt I also personally know the founders of Freedom From Religion Foundation. They claim to not recognize religion butt their religion is Facsist Statism. They consider the Facsisr State to be their god. Anyone that doesn't bow an' worship the State is to be crushed. An' they use the courts to spread an' enforce their twisted doctrine.

Unlike them, a True Atheist is not offended by other religions or beliefs. A True Atheist does not proselytize or force their beliefs on others. A True Atheist unnerstanz that when someone sez "bless you" or "you're in my prayers" it is a sign of caring an' neither malice or ignorance. I actually thank my Christian friends when they offer me a Merry Christmas or Happy Easter. It means that they wish me well an' not ill. Unlike these foul mood Faux Atheists who get offended by symbols. I've never been harmed by a cross, which though it was a means of execution has been used for centuries as a symbol of love an' compassion.

I guess the Faux-Atheists become offended because they have absolutely no love an' compassion within themselves.

 

[skeeter]

These so-called Atheists are in all reality Faux Atheists. I can get away with calling them out because not only am I a true Atheist, butt I also personally know the founders of Freedom From Religion Foundation. They claim to not recognize religion butt their religion is Facsist Statism. They consider the Facsisr State to be their god. Anyone that doesn't bow an' worship the State is to be crushed. An' they use the courts to spread an' enforce their twisted doctrine.

Unlike them, a True Atheist is not offended by other religions or beliefs. A True Atheist does not proselytize or force their beliefs on others. A True Atheist unnerstanz that when someone sez "bless you" or "you're in my prayers" it is a sign of caring an' neither malice or ignorance. I actually thank my Christian friends when they offer me a Merry Christmas or Happy Easter. It means that they wish me well an' not ill. Unlike these foul mood Faux Atheists who get offended by symbols. I've never been harmed by a cross, which though it was a means of execution has been used for centuries as a symbol of love an' compassion.

I guess the Faux-Atheists become offended because they have absolutely no love an' compassion within themselves.

 

That makes perfect sense to me.

[sneakypete]

I think anyone who makes it their life's work to take down monuments put up decades ago in this once predominantly Christian country to honor fallen soldiers or the nation's sacrifice in general because they, in their warped estimation, feel its constitutes a threat of some kind is demented and should seek help. But we shouldn't be compelled honor their wishes.

@skeeter

There can be no question of that,and what NEEDS to be done is have federal laws passed that protect  historic public cemeteries/similar plots from destruction or modification.

Or,as a step in that direction,there are already laws on books against desecration of a cemetery/grave yard,so why not add public tributes to the dead to that list? There HAS to be some hungry lawyers out there that would like to have a little bit of teebee face time for free advertising that would be thrilled to take up that fight. Do it on the state level first because there is power in numbers,and then make it federal.

Frankly,this is such "low-hanging fruit" from the lawsuit POV,I am shocked it hasn't already happened.

[sneakypete]

These so-called Atheists are in all reality Faux Atheists. I can get away with calling them out because not only am I a true Atheist, butt I also personally know the founders of Freedom From Religion Foundation. They claim to not recognize religion butt their religion is Facsist Statism. They consider the Facsisr State to be their god. Anyone that doesn't bow an' worship the State is to be crushed. An' they use the courts to spread an' enforce their twisted doctrine.

Unlike them, a True Atheist is not offended by other religions or beliefs. A True Atheist does not proselytize or force their beliefs on others. A True Atheist unnerstanz that when someone sez "bless you" or "you're in my prayers" it is a sign of caring an' neither malice or ignorance. I actually thank my Christian friends when they offer me a Merry Christmas or Happy Easter. It means that they wish me well an' not ill. Unlike these foul mood Faux Atheists who get offended by symbols. I've never been harmed by a cross, which though it was a means of execution has been used for centuries as a symbol of love an' compassion.

I guess the Faux-Atheists become offended because they have absolutely no love an' compassion within themselves.

 

@mortarman      to every word you wrote!

I will only add that atheism might as well be recognized as an actual religion these days,because just like the nuttier religious loons,they are just as rabid about insisting that everybody else follow THEIR beliefs.

I admit to having gotten so frustrated over people just not listening and closing their minds to me the instant I say I am an atheist,and automatically lump me in with loons like Madaline O'hara that I don't even mention I am an atheist anymore. I just say I'm "not religious" and avoid getting mad trying to reason with closed minds.


Unfortunately,live and let live doesn't seem to exist much on either side of that argument. Everybody today it too radical to listen to reason.

[Cyber Liberty]

That makes perfect sense to me.

It does to me too, skeets.  @mortarman Makes excellent points.

Most people in these stories that call themselves "Atheists"  are really militant "anti-Theists."  The "A-" prefix suggests "indifference," not "revulsion."  To my limited, rigid mind, "A-Theist" translates to "I don't give a snot, and that's OK." 

For a philosopher, I guess that would be closer to agnostic than it is to crushing everybody else's talismans.

[skeeter]

@skeeter

There can be no question of that,and what NEEDS to be done is have federal laws passed that protect  historic public cemeteries/similar plots from destruction or modification.

Or,as a step in that direction,there are already laws on books against desecration of a cemetery/grave yard,so why not add public tributes to the dead to that list? There HAS to be some hungry lawyers out there that would like to have a little bit of teebee face time for free advertising that would be thrilled to take up that fight. Do it on the state level first because there is power in numbers,and then make it federal.

Frankly,this is such "low-hanging fruit" from the lawsuit POV,I am shocked it hasn't already happened.

Youre right, that shouldve been done already.

I recall a few years back some demented soul succeeded in removing the cross at Schofield Barrack’s Kolekole pass on Oahu which was erected to honor WWI dead and had great historical significance. That kind of thing really pizzes me off.

[sneakypete]

It does to me too, skeets.  @mortarman Makes excellent points.

Most people in these stories that call themselves "Atheists"  are really militant "anti-Theists."  The "A-" prefix suggests "indifference," not "revulsion."  To my limited, rigid mind, "A-Theist" translates to "I don't give a snot, and that's OK." 

For a philosopher, I guess that would be closer to agnostic than it is to crushing everybody else's talismans.

@Cyber Liberty

When you are talking to the faithful,that IS the "tag" you want to use unless you want to get into an endless arguement. Use the word "atheist" and they immediately think you are attacking them,and there is nothing you can say to make them change their minds.

"Agnostic" is how I identify myself to the faithful,and it really is more accurate because it applies to all religions,not just Christianity.

[sneakypete]

Youre right, that shouldve been done already.

I recall a few years back some demented soul succeeded in removing the cross at Schofield Barrack’s Kolekole pass on Oahu which was erected to honor WWI dead and had great historical significance. That kind of thing really pizzes me off.

@skeeter

 Yeah,you ain't by yourself on that one.

[roamer_1]

@skeeter

You mean symbols of Islam? How about Satan Worshippers? The "spaceship crowd",whose title I can't remember? Or any other group of loons that gather around a coffee table and decide to call themselves a religion

This is America,bubba. If you let one religion do it,you have to allow ALL "religions" to do it.

I understand you are thinking from the POV of Christianity,but there are literally hundreds of "religions" in this country. Are you ready to allow them all to put up symbols of their faith on public property?

I don't think that is right @sneakypete

It is freedom of religion, and I don't think that plausibly extends all the way to the ground.

I think that a community is free to express itself, or humanism is imposed. Even a county and state should likewise be treated as its citizens define it, or another morality is imposed (namely again, humanism). If you don't like it, move somewhere else.

As it is, The feral government is the one tearing out the 10 commandments from in front of courthouses and off of school walls - over the objection of the community. The feral government removes prayer and religious studies from the schools and community events, imposing humanism in its stead, again, against the desire of the community.

That is in FACT the imposition of religion in its own right.

[Hoodat]

I think that a community is free to express itself, or humanism is imposed. Even a county and state should likewise be treated as its citizens define it, or another morality is imposed (namely again, humanism). If you don't like it, move somewhere else.

As it is, The feral government is the one tearing out the 10 commandments from in front of courthouses and off of school walls - over the objection of the community. The feral government removes prayer and religious studies from the schools and community events, imposing humanism in its stead, again, against the desire of the community.

That is in FACT the imposition of religion in its own right.

Agree 100 %.  We as members of a society have the right to mold and shape our society as we see fit under the confines of our Constitution.  And our First Amendment places restriction on the power of the federal government.  It is not an expansion of power.

[sneakypete]

I don't think that is right @sneakypete

It is freedom of religion, and I don't think that plausibly extends all the way to the ground.

Ok,but I think it does. It was a freedom the FF's thought it was important enough to specifically guarantee in the Bill of Rights. You can NOT allow ONE religion to have more rights in a free country than you do other religions. If it's good for one,it's good for all of them

I think that a community is free to express itself, or humanism is imposed.

Well,"humanism" is,IMHO,just another form of religion. Humanists have ever right Catholics,for instance,have in America. Which includes the right to be wrong. We ALL get to make our own choices about what to believe and what to not believe. Ain't it wonderful?

 

Even a county and state should likewise be treated as its citizens define it, or another morality is imposed (namely again, humanism).

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say,there.

If you don't like it, move somewhere else.

Ahhh,but in America,the people you call "Humanists" have the RIGHT to tell YOU the same thing. That's the way freedom works.

As it is, The feral government is the one tearing out the 10 commandments from in front of courthouses and off of school walls - over the objection of the community.

Not really. The people have a right to petition the feral goobermint to stop that,and if some ambitious and greedy lawyer follows my suggestion,they can sue the feral goovermint and DEMAND that law be changed because it is denigrating an historic emblem.

Even though I don't really have a dog in this fight,I suspect that is due more to the savvy politicians figuring out they can pull in more donation money to let those laws stay in effect to they can pretend to want to repeal them,than they would ever get from actually doing it. Then again,I am probably more cynical than most people.

I can tell you with 100 percent truth that as an agnostic,*I* personally have no problem at all with religious symbols on historic public buildings or land,and no problem at all with them being displayed anywhere on private property.

 

The feral government removes prayer and religious studies from the schools and community events,

Nope! Did NOT  happen and can NOT happen. What they did,and rightly so or you would be kneeling on a prayer rug facing mecca today at things like HS graduation ceremonies today if what you THINK you want were to come to pass. Once again,if you make prayer mandatory,you are making ALL prayer mandatory.

As for YOU praying even today,who is going to stop you from speaking to your God in your mind? Does anyone try to stop you from entering a public building carrying a Bible and wearing a cross? Get back to me when that happens.

imposing humanism in its stead, again, against the desire of the community.

WRONG! Maybe against a SMALL segment of the local community,but your church damn sure doesn't speak for other churches or citizens that are agnostics or members of other faiths.

That is in FACT the imposition of religion in its own right.

Not even close. What you are calling for is for YOUR faith to be dominate over all others,and in fact,forced upon those who don't want it.

[roamer_1]

Agree 100 %.  We as members of a society have the right to mold and shape our society as we see fit under the confines of our Constitution.  And our First Amendment places restriction on the power of the federal government.  It is not an expansion of power.

Precisely. Federalism demands self-government. That means, as much as is humanly possible, government belongs closest to the people.

But more importantly, if the federal government is denying the people their religion as expressed, and imposing another morality in it's stead, That is EXACTLY what the Constitution is meant to prevent.

The federal government IS imposing a nationwide religion.

[Hoodat]

You mean symbols of Islam? How about Satan Worshippers? The "spaceship crowd",whose title I can't remember? Or any other group of loons that gather around a coffee table and decide to call themselves a religion

It should be left up to the local society.  If the citizens of my community vote to put an islamic crescent on the front of city hall, a satanic symbol in every school classroom, or hold some gaia festival on the courthouse square, then that is their right.  And there is nothing in Amendment I that empowers the federal government to deny them that right at the point of a gun.

[roamer_1]

Ok,but I think it does. It was a freedom the FF's thought it was important enough to specifically guarantee in the Bill of Rights. You can NOT allow ONE religion to have more rights in a free country than you do other religions. If it's good for one,it's good for all of them

@sneakypete
But that is exactly what is happening. The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is imposing Humanism, favoring humanism, indoctrinating our youth in Humanism.

Well,"humanism" is,IMHO,just another form of religion. Humanists have ever right Catholics,for instance,have in America. Which includes the right to be wrong. We ALL get to make our own choices about what to believe and what to not believe. Ain't it wonderful?

But that is just it - We do NOT get to make our own choices. The federal government is imposing Humanism.
 

Not really. The people have a right to petition the feral goobermint to stop that,and if some ambitious and greedy lawyer follows my suggestion,they can sue the feral goovermint and DEMAND that law be changed because it is denigrating an historic emblem.

Too Late - It has already been done nationwide. I was there the day they tore the 10 commandments out of in front of the courthouse. I was in that fight. I remember when the 10 commandments came down off the walls in public school.

Nope! Did NOT  happen and can NOT happen. What they did,and rightly so or you would be kneeling on a prayer rug facing mecca today at things like HS graduation ceremonies today if what you THINK you want were to come to pass. Once again,if you make prayer mandatory,you are making ALL prayer mandatory.

YES, IT DID HAPPEN. Nationwide. Federally imposed.

Not even close. What you are calling for is for YOUR faith to be dominate over all others,and in fact,forced upon those who don't want it.

I am not forcing you to live in my community, my county, or my state. I am imposing nothing on you.

If you don't like it, get together with like-minded folks and start your own community. Move there. Be happy.

[sneakypete]

It should be left up to the local society.  If the citizens of my community vote to put an islamic crescent on the front of city hall, a satanic symbol in every school classroom, or hold some gaia festival on the courthouse square, then that is their right.  And there is nothing in Amendment I that empowers the federal government to deny them that right at the point of a gun.

@Hoodat

So you are saying it is ok to shout "fire!" in a crowded theater?

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

But that is exactly what is happening. The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is imposing Humanism, favoring humanism, indoctrinating our youth in Humanism.
 

 

But that is just it - We do NOT get to make our own choices. The federal government is imposing Humanism.

Are you a human?

 

[roamer_1]

Are you a human?

 

What does that have to do with humanism?