Author Topic: Moscow furious after Ukraine leader points out Soviet collusion with Nazis  (Read 576 times)

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Offline TomSea

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Moscow furious after Ukraine leader points out Soviet collusion with Nazis
As Zelensky mentions pact that carved up Poland and started World War II, Putin’s spokesperson claims that is ‘erroneous and offensive’

MOSCOW, Russia — The Kremlin reacted with fury on Tuesday after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Soviet collusion with Nazi Germany led to the outbreak of World War II.

“We categorically disagree with this statement,” Russian President Vladimir Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters, accusing Zelensky of backing the “highly erroneous” position of Poland on the historical events.

The Soviet collaboration with the Nazis remains highly sensitive in the ex-Soviet bloc and frequently crops up in political rhetoric.

Read more at: https://www.timesofisrael.com/moscow-furious-after-ukraine-leader-points-out-soviet-collusion-with-nazis



Offline PeteS in CA

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The Russians actually deny this? How does the Russian government explain the Stalin invading eastern Poland a couple of weeks after Hitler invaded western Poland? And dividing Poland with Hitler? And the massive shift of Poland's borders westward after WW2 due to Stalin keeping the Polish territory he conquered in 1939?

There is more context to this spat, however. During the Russian civil war, the Whites found some support in Ukraine. A decade and more after the Reds won, Stalin caused the Holodomor, a government caused/engineered famine that starved some 5 or 10 million innocent Ukrainians to death. So when Hitler invaded the USSR, the Nazis found some support, at first, from Ukrainians. He lost that quickly by treating Ukrainians brutally, but to this day some Russians call Ukrainians "Nazis".
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline TomSea

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The Russians actually deny this? How does the Russian government explain the Stalin invading eastern Poland a couple of weeks after Hitler invaded western Poland? And dividing Poland with Hitler? And the massive shift of Poland's borders westward after WW2 due to Stalin keeping the Polish territory he conquered in 1939?

There is more context to this spat, however. During the Russian civil war, the Whites found some support in Ukraine. A decade and more after the Reds won, Stalin caused the Holodomor, a government caused/engineered famine that starved some 5 or 10 million innocent Ukrainians to death. So when Hitler invaded the USSR, the Nazis found some support, at first, from Ukrainians. He lost that quickly by treating Ukrainians brutally, but to this day some Russians call Ukrainians "Nazis".

Yes, there is a lot of context to all of this.  There were many Ukrainians in the Red Army,  many, really from the whole USSR.

I once saw a list of the top 10 snipers for the Red Army, 3 or even 4 must have been Ukrainian.

8 Red Army female snipers: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/8-red-army-female-snipers-world-war-ii
#8 at the least, is Ukrainian. The Red Army was diverse per those countries over there. They had soldiers too, with Asian features.

Then, in a similar discussion on twitter,  someone said Lviv was a part of Poland at one time.

So, there's a lot to all of this and yes, throughout the centuries, borders have shifted a number of times.

Offline sneakypete

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Yeah,just because the Soviets rented out a huge section of the USSR for the Nazi's to use to develop their weapons and battle strategies,and because they had a mutual defense pact if either was invaded,and both were a form of socialist totalitarians that dreamed of world conquest,that doesn't mean anything.
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Offline sneakypete

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Yes, there is a lot of context to all of this.  There were many Ukrainians in the Red Army,  many, really from the whole USSR.

@TomSea

Well,it's not like they had a choice. To insure attacking red army soldiers "gave it their all",the Red Army had NKVD agents with machine guns following along the front lines during attacks. They were there to use the machine guns on any Red Army troops that tried to retreat. They were called "Blocking Squads".


 
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8 Red Army female snipers: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/8-red-army-female-snipers-world-war-ii
#8 at the least, is Ukrainian. The Red Army was diverse per those countries over there. They had soldiers too, with Asian features.

Caucasians were always outnumbered in the USSR,and Stalin and the Red Army Generals LOVED using non-Slavs as the front line assault troops. It was his way of making them useful while reducing their numbers.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline jafo2010

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Stalin was a real sweetheart, and Russia has not divorced themselves from his legacy.  They still see him as a hero, despite 30 million Russians dead in WWII, like he held no responsibility for those losses.  Stalin used to sit every night and make list of up to 5,000 people he wanted executed.  People were taken off the streets to feed the gulags and never seen again.

You want to read a shocker of a book, read the book Gulag by a woman named Applebaum(Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn also had a book by the same name).  When I finished the book, I literally broke down and wept.  Lenin and Stalin were two of the most evil men ever to live.  Between them, they murdered somewhere between 70 - 100 million Russians, not to mention Poles and others.  Stalin had his gulag/concentration camps/death camps long before Hitler ever did!!!  Survival was about one year, and death occurred for a variety of reasons, exposure, starvation, disease, and outright execution.  And for those sentenced to the gulags, their children became enemies of the state and treated horribly.

Putin is a ruthless dictator, and it is time the world recognizes it.  Oppose him at your peril.  Trump praising this horrible man, ugggh.  Where the F are advisors to set him straight?  Too many losers and men not to be trusted clearly with all the crap going on with our worthless Congress. 

My third trip to Russia, I was down in the southern region of Russia (which I did not know that westerners were warned away from going for safety threats) visiting my inlaws, and we traveled to a place called Kislovosk, a resort town where people would vacation for one month each year during the USSR days.  Went for a walk with my wife and her parents and as we passed a building that was easily one block square and multiple stories high, he would say at the start of the building that it was a health sanitorium back in the USSR days, and Stalin named the building after such and such friend.  By the time we got to the other end of the building, he said that Stalin had that friend executed.  Well, after walking past about six or eight of these buildings, all named after a friend of Stalin, each and every  one of them executed by Stalin, I just could not keep a straight face.

They still have Stalin I believe in Red Square with Lenin.  Both of them should have their bodies burned and scattered never to be seen again rather than worshipped.

On our way back from Kislovosk, we took a bus back to my wife's family's city.  We were stopped in the middle of nowhere, boarded by police, every one of them carrying machine guns, and as soon as they saw my American passport, I was hauled off to their station.  My wife accompanied me.  They started with the normal routine, declaring my papers were not in order, that I would be imprisoned and deported.  I paid a large sum of money to have the right papers for a 2 week visit.  After this happening for about the 10th time, and knowing they were trying to put the squeeze on me for my money, I had.  I told my wife to tell them that if they continue to F*&^ with me, I will call my friend in Putin's office, and the best job any of them will have in the future is picking potatoes.  My wife responded, I can't tell them that, they can take us out in the field and shoot us dead.   I told tell them.  She did clearly, a F*&^ being every third word as I instructed.  There was about six of them standing there, and their eyes went buy eye wide like Schiff, and they looked at each other in a big group Aw sh*t moment, and they waved us to leave. 

We had to walk about one two miles back to the bus in the dark.  I cannot believe my wife knew the way.  We got on the bus, and I swear, the bus driver laid tire driving away as quickly as he could.  Couple days later, we went to the airport of my wife's town that requires you to go through security as you enter the terminal, and immediately they snagged me again.  For about the 11th time, I had to pay what amounted to $38 at the time, and then the baggage woman put the hit on me for the weight of my bags.  I told my wife, this is the last time I come to your f*&^ing country, thieves one and all.

Putin should be scorned by western nations at every turn.  He is a mass murderer, for believe me, his opposition become fertilizer.  Trump should get better advisors, for he sure does say the dumbest crap regarding Russia.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 04:18:20 pm by jafo2010 »

Offline dfwgator

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Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

7 Weeks Before the Start of Operation Barbarossa.

They sure looked like allies to me.

Offline dfwgator

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I still believe Stalin knew where most of the Jews in the Soviet Union lived, and knew not to heavily defend those areas when the Nazis invaded, knowing Hitler would take care of Stalin's "Jewish Problem" for him.

Offline dfwgator

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The bottom line is, when the Nazis invaded France, the Soviets supported Germany.

If Nazi Germany had invaded Britain, instead of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union would have supported Nazi Germany.

Offline sneakypete

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Stalin was a real sweetheart, and Russia has not divorced themselves from his legacy.  They still see him as a hero, despite 30 million Russians dead in WWII, like he held no responsibility for those losses.

@jafo2010 

I spent a few weeks in Moscow right after the collapse of the USSR,and even in Moscow,where the typical Russian lived MUCH better than anywhere else in Russia,it was hard to find anyone that had anything positive to say about him,or about communism. They all admitted to having to play the "pretend game" until Communism collapsed and Yeltsin took over,but there was a LOT of resentment about it. Thanks to stuff like Radio Free America and videos and newspapers smuggled in they knew they had been lied to,but it was a police state,so they played the game they needed to play to stay alive and out of labor camps.

People used to having their parents or grandparents live with them so there was someone to stand in line at the fish store,the meat store,the bakery store,the milk store,and even the light bulb store (you had to turn in a burnt out one to be allowed to buy a new one. No kidding) because all the stores closed at 5 PM so the workers could go home,and which meant they were closed when the other workers got off work. No refrigeration in some of the stores,so you could walk past them the next morning and smell rotting fish and beef in the dumpsters outside that weren't sold the day before.

These people weren't fooled at all about how corrupt and incompetent their masters were.

This was even more noticeable on my second trip there two years later. That time I went to the Mari Republic several hundred miles from Moscow. This was originally the home of a tribe of Russian "Indians" (no kidding,feathers in their hair,teepees,birch bark canoes,red skin,the whole deal),and under communism,the place where stuff like the SS-20 nuclear missiles were built. Never seen so many children anywhere in my life who were born crippled,blind,and/or retarded.  All living in apartment buildings several stories high that didn't have working elevators.

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Stalin used to sit every night and make list of up to 5,000 people he wanted executed.


I don't believe that for a minute. He had plenty of people available to do that for him.

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People were taken off the streets to feed the gulags and never seen again.

Not in the way that sounds. People who had been caught stealing at work,or who were reported for suspicious  behavior were arrested and hauled off for questioning,but not random people walking down the street. ESPECIALLY not in Moscow or St.Petersburg,where most of the important families and their relatives lived.

   
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Lenin and Stalin were two of the most evil men ever to live.


No question about that,but Mao wasn't exactly a charmer,either. Or the guy whose name I can't remember right now that lead East Germany. Eric something or another,I think. He was so nasty he even freaked out the Soviets occasionally.

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Between them, they murdered somewhere between 70 - 100 million Russians,


Don't think so. Most of that number includes the losses of WW-1 and WW-2,and you can't blame the Commies for that. They didn't start either.

 
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Stalin had his gulag/concentration camps/death camps long before Hitler ever did!!!


Stalin got started in 1919 or so,and Hitler gained power in the early 30's,so not much difference.

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Survival was about one year, and death occurred for a variety of reasons, exposure, starvation, disease, and outright execution.


A gross exaggeration. There were many different types of labor camps. Russia is one BIG-ass place and mostly empty of humans. In 1918 it was also almost totally like it was 100 years before,and Stalin (and indeed,the Czar before him) needed laborers to build roads,bridges,power plants,trucks,work on collective farms,etc,etc,etc to modernize the nation and join the 20th Century. Part of that was a program to shut down rural villages and bring all those people into a nearby city to work in the factories to build things needed to modernize,plus they HAD to be gathered together in cities to have them all in one place so they could feed and clothe them. Russia was an incredibly primitive place under the Czars once you got out of Moscow and St.Petersburg.

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And for those sentenced to the gulags, their children became enemies of the state and treated horribly.

In more ways than one. Many were declared to be enemies of the state because their parents were declared to be enemies of the state. This happened mostly because it was the excuse the Soviets used to basically enslave workers in places and jobs the state needed them to live and work. Because the parents were treated this way,many of the children came to secretly hate the state. The ones that didn't keep it a secret didn't last long.

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Putin is a ruthless dictator, and it is time the world recognizes it.


Compared to Lenin and Stalin,he is a pussycat.

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Oppose him at your peril.  Trump praising this horrible man, ugggh.


It's called "international politics". The US and Russia need to be allies when it comes to fighting Islam.

 
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Where the F are advisors to set him straight?


Have you lost your freaking mind? WHAT is to be gained by going to war with Russia,when Russia is our natural ally when it comes to defeating Islam? Also,it would be kinda nice to arrange things so there are no more world wars in Europe,while we are at it.

As for Putin,he IS a "moderate" compared to what passed before him,and sadly,probably more moderate than what is going to replace him if Russia once again becomes separated from the western world. There is BIG money trying to make this happen because Russia dropping her assets on the international markets will cause some of the protected assets like gold to drop in value. In FACT,that is the very reason so many people wanted to shut down markets to Russia and gave aid to the communists so they would take over.

 



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They still have Stalin I believe in Red Square with Lenin.


I don't think so. I remember reading several years ago that Stalin had been moved somewhere,but Lenin's Tomb is a tourist attraction.

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Both of them should have their bodies burned and scattered never to be seen again rather than worshipped.

There are probably more people in the US that workship them than there are in Russia. The Russians KNEW them for what they are,not what the NYT reported them to be.

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On our way back from Kislovosk, we took a bus back to my wife's family's city.  We were stopped in the middle of nowhere, boarded by police, every one of them carrying machine guns, and as soon as they saw my Russian passport, I was hauled off to their station.


What were you doing with a Russian passport?

 

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We had to walk about one two miles back to the bus in the dark.  I cannot believe my wife knew the way.  We got on the bus, and I swear, the bus driver laid tire driving away as quickly as he could.  Couple days later, we went to the airport of my wife's town that requires you to go through security as you enter the terminal, and immediately they snagged me again.  For about the 11th time, I had to pay what amounted to $38 at the time, and then the baggage woman put the hit on me for the weight of my bags.  I told my wife, this is the last time I come to your f*&^ing country, thieves one and all.

I don't know what to say to this. I visited Russia twice right after the collapse of Communism as a solo tourist with a US passport,and if anything,the Russian customs people treated me like a retarded child that just didn't  know any better. More than once I would see them shaking their heads in frustration and muttering,and then just waving me through. Truth to tell,they may still think I am in Russia because on my last trip I kinda sneaked past customs and left without the passport stamp because I might have had a few items with me they didn't want me to have. I honestly can't believe how easy it was to do that. I just hung back until I saw a few people just walking through a gate without stopping or showing any ID,so I did the same thing. In a police state,if you act arrogant like the police,everybody is scared to question you,and all of them at that time grew up in a police state and it was all they knew. No way in hell you could get away with that now,though.

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Putin should be scorned by western nations at every turn.  He is a mass murderer, for believe me, his opposition become fertilizer.


He is a pussycat compared to what passed before him. Everything is relative.

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Trump should get better advisors, for he sure does say the dumbest crap regarding Russia.


Like it or not,and you obviously don't,the US NEEDS to get along with Russia in order to defeat Islam.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 03:54:15 am by sneakypete »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Moscow furious after Ukraine leader points out Soviet collusion with Nazis
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2020, 01:10:16 pm »
They still have Stalin I believe in Red Square with Lenin.

Stalin body was removed from display in Lenin tomb and buried back in 1961.

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Offline jafo2010

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Re: Moscow furious after Ukraine leader points out Soviet collusion with Nazis
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2020, 04:42:21 pm »
Sneakypete...so quick to refute every word I say based on trips to Russia 30 years ago? 

I have read many books on Russia, and the numbers vary on how many died at the hands of Lenin and Stalin.  But after reading Applebaum's book, I an inclined to believe her numbers over many other sources.

Stalin is presently buried in the Kremlin Wall, and my point was his existence should be destroyed not to ever be seen.

And making light of Putin and comparing him to Stalin?  Never said he was as bad a monster as Stalin.  But he does eliminate those he considers his enemies.  People today do not have the freedom to say what they think.  A few years back, we had a touring group of journalists from Russia come to our newspaper, and one of us asked them if they have the freedom to accurately report the goings of politicians, and they kind of looked at each other in silence, and two or three subtlely shook their heads to indicate NO.  No one spoke.

And I got news for you, Moscow and St. Petersburg are unique while the rest of Russia is treated like village communities.  My wife and family come from the same city as Gorbachov in southern Russia, population about 450,000, and it does have the feeling of a small village.  The statue of Lenin with arm outstretched still stands in one of the main squares, and the communists there still control governance.

Again, Moscow and St. Pete are not as bad, but it was almost a daily event my being stopped and told my papers were not in order, and then they were asking for a bribe.  First time I went, it was about $7 or $8 each time, but the last time I went, it was $38 each time.  Got old.  I have no desire to go back.

I typed the passport sentence incorrectly, meant American passport. My wife still had dual citizenship, so she had her Russian passport.

And read her book, see the level of detail before you criticize her account. 

And I do not see how you EVER got what I said that we should go to war with Russia!!!  I feel just the opposite.  I think one of the greatest hoaxes was the threat of Russia, and more so today.  Yes, they are a present threat to Ukraine, and may have been to some of the Baltic states, but most if not all are now part of NATO.  Ukraine chose not to join NATO.  I just do not see them as our problem.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Moscow furious after Ukraine leader points out Soviet collusion with Nazis
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2020, 05:32:33 pm »

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Sneakypete...so quick to refute every word I say based on trips to Russia 30 years ago? 


Yes. I take my own word and opinion over those of others. Go figure!


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I have read many books on Russia, and the numbers vary on how many died at the hands of Lenin and Stalin.


The actual number is unimportant. What is important is it was an official government program,carried out and supervised by the government. It is also important to recognize that a big part of it was designed to spread terror amongst their own citizens in order to suppress dissent. The hallmark of a police state.

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Stalin is presently buried in the Kremlin Wall, and my point was his existence should be destroyed not to ever be seen.

As I wrote,I remember reading a short article saying he had been moved and reburied elsewhere after the collapse of the USSR. Yeltsin had it done,but I don't remember,or really care,where he was moved to. The new government probably did this because for some insane reason there were still Russians who worshiped Stalin
and hated Yeltsin and the "new state" ,and they wanted to remove a possible Soviet Shrine/rally point for those people to make trouble.


 
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But he does eliminate those he considers his enemies.  People today do not have the freedom to say what they think.  A few years back, we had a touring group of journalists from Russia come to our newspaper, and one of us asked them if they have the freedom to accurately report the goings of politicians, and they kind of looked at each other in silence, and two or three subtlely shook their heads to indicate NO.  No one spoke.

Jesus! How could you possibly be so ignorant? Did you NOT read "Russia Today" or the "St.Petersburg Times" right after the collapse of the USSR? They were telling truths that were shocking in practically every edition,and the editors and reporters did NOT like Communists. Nor did they like Bill Clinton and his comrades,either.

I did get interested in something else right after Putin got elected and haven't read either in years,but I seem to have a vague sense that Putin/The Russian Mafia/sometimes the same thing started causing their editors and reporters problems. I can only guess that this got worse after Putin took office the second time as some sort of "President for Life". He was a Colonel in the KBG before the collapse of Communism,so you can believe he knows some dirty players and dirty tricks. I have zero evidence of this,but since his primary focus as a KGB Colonel gathering intelligence was the west,I sincerely believe he had a LOT of financial backing from corrupt western banks and their owners. Nothing else can explain to me how a mere former Colonel in the KGB could suddenly jump ahead of all the other candidates at a time when NOBODY liked or trusted the KGB,and become the 2nd President of Russia.  I am GUESSING he had financial backing from globalists like Soros.

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And I got news for you, Moscow and St. Petersburg are unique while the rest of Russia is treated like village communities.

Duh,ya think? Did I not mention this and the facts that the ruling elites and their families lived in those two cities?

 
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My wife and family come from the same city as Gorbachov in southern Russia, population about 450,000, and it does have the feeling of a small village.

Well,in Soviet Russia,that was the equivalent of a small village. Stalin sent the Red Army to move the residents out of the vast majority of the small villages traditional to Russia,and move them into the new Soviet Cities to provide the labor he needed to rebuild and rearm Russia,and frankly,to make it easier to keep an eye on them so he could control them.

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The statue of Lenin with arm outstretched still stands in one of the main squares, and the communists there still control governance.

BTW,there is STILL a statue of Lenin standing in the park of a western US city. I THINK it is Portland,but am not positive. The statue was put up by the wealthy family of a doctor that went to Russia in 1917 to work with the Soviets,and he eventually became Lenin's personal physician. If you have ever seen the movie "Reds",he has a prominent role in the movie. I have no idea of that family still exists or are still wealthy,but I hope not.

The Communists were the ONLY ones with any administrative knowledge that were capable of running the cities after the collapse of Communism because the USSR was a police state,and city leadership were appointees of the Central Party. Who did you expect to run the cities,if not them?

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Again, Moscow and St. Pete are not as bad, but it was almost a daily event my being stopped and told my papers were not in order, and then they were asking for a bribe.  First time I went, it was about $7 or $8 each time, but the last time I went, it was $38 each time.  Got old.  I have no desire to go back.

I had ZERO problems with the police in either Moscow or Yoshkar-Ola. I also didn't go drinking in any Russian nightclubs. Russia was,and probably still is,a VERY bad place for a drunken western tourist to go stumbling around in bars populated almost entirely by Russians. It was probably more dangerous when I was there soon after the collapse and everybody's life savings just disappeared because desperate people do desperate things,but I still wouldn't recommend it.

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And I do not see how you EVER got what I said that we should go to war with Russia!!!

That SEEMED to me to be what you were saying,and if I am wrong I apologize.

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I feel just the opposite.  I think one of the greatest hoaxes was the threat of Russia,


It was a serious threat,alright. The Russians were primitive paranoids armed with nuclear weapons and a desire to control the world.  Anybody that doesn't see THAT as a threat to world peace ain't thinking clearly.

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and more so today.


They are NO threat to anyone today that doesn't directly attack them. Truth to tell,it drives me nuts that American presidents haven't made a greater effort to turn them into allies,because in MY not so humble opinion,if the world is to have a future as a place for free people to live,the US,Russia,and GB MUST become allies or none of us are going to survive the war Islam is waging on us all now.

 
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Yes, they are a present threat to Ukraine,

More of a political threat than a military threat.

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and may have been to some of the Baltic states,

See the above. This,of course,is mostly because of all the ethnic Russians who have been living in those places for generations,and still consider themselves to be Russians. Kind of like so many Americans consider themselves to be German,Irish,Africans,etc,etc,etc because some ancient ancestor of theirs was born there hundreds of years ago. Everybody wants to be "special". Human nature. Same motivation as sports fans becoming rabid fans of local sports teams,even if THEY never played themselves,and really know nothing about the sport.

 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 05:42:31 pm by sneakypete »
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