Author Topic: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?  (Read 396 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« on: January 28, 2020, 03:09:02 pm »
 Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?

There may be neoconservatives cheering that drone strike, as neoconservatives are wont to do, but it is unlikely that they are the ones driving policy.

By Sumantra Maitra
January 28, 2020

Jacob Heilbrunn wrote a provocative new essay in which he claimed that neoconservatism, “the discredited foreign policy of the last two decades,” has somehow managed to crawl back in the least likely of all places: a Donald Trump presidency.

Heilbrunn, the editor of The National Interest, is no ordinary political commentator. He has written a book on the rise of neoconservatism, from its origins in Marxist-Trotskyist internationalism of the 1930s, to disillusioned defection, to a Wilsonian liberal-internationalism in the 1960s, to the George W. Bush administration’s ill-fated attempt at re-shaping the culture of the most semi-feudal region on the planet, to the Never-Trump movement. Notice how the internationalism didn’t change, even when the ideology morphed.

Heilbrunn cites veteran neocon Mike Ledeen from the Bush era, “Creative destruction is our middle name. … We tear down the old order every day.” Nothing about that was “conservative,” but a radical restructuring. One can argue that included tearing down the old order at home.

Naturally, some of the strongest opponents of a non-interventionist and paleo-conservative right, and the rise of the Trump phenomenon, were the neoconservatives, from Bill Kristol to Max Boot to The Bulwark. In fact, some, like Peter Hitchens, have argued that a few neoconservatives (like his brother Christopher) never really gave up on their internal Trotskyism and internationalism, but hijacked actual conservatism from within.

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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 03:20:07 pm »
In my years of participation in various conservative-oriented discussion sites, the only meaningful "definition" of Neocon I discern from usage was, Someone I disagree with and bogeymanize because I don't want to discuss their ideas. "Neocon" is to some conservative what "Fascist" is to many liberals, an epithet without serious meaning. Both bogeymen need to be retired.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 03:31:11 pm »
In my years of participation in various conservative-oriented discussion sites, the only meaningful "definition" of Neocon I discern from usage was, Someone I disagree with and bogeymanize because I don't want to discuss their ideas. "Neocon" is to some conservative what "Fascist" is to many liberals, an epithet without serious meaning. Both bogeymen need to be retired.

I always considered Neocon to mean that specific cohort that converted from rat to republican in the wake of Reagan's popularity. They never really had much to do with 'conservative'. Anyway, you're right the term has since become an epithet and is largely meaningless now.

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2020, 05:28:19 pm »
I always considered Neocon to mean that specific cohort that converted from rat to republican in the wake of Reagan's popularity. They never really had much to do with 'conservative'. Anyway, you're right the term has since become an epithet and is largely meaningless now.

That was the origin of the term. But usage I've seen in the past 15 years has made me unable to discern whether I might be a "Neocon". BTW, I've been more or less conservative since elementary school (allowing for age). Believing in right and wrong inclined me that way, even in the 1960s; and now ......, yeah.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2020, 06:05:51 pm »
That was the origin of the term. But usage I've seen in the past 15 years has made me unable to discern whether I might be a "Neocon". BTW, I've been more or less conservative since elementary school (allowing for age). Believing in right and wrong inclined me that way, even in the 1960s; and now ......, yeah.
Yes, a person who used to be liberal but converted to conservatism i.e. neocon is definitely a horrible person.  :whistle:
Then I guess I'm  a horrible person, because I was a lot more liberal fifty years ago.
Some people don't know that certain people use the term to describe Jews who became conservatives. A lot easier to call somebody a neocon (nod, nod, wink, wink) than a filthy Jew .
The question is: would these people rather the neocons remained liberals and voted for Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, or Barack Obama?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2020, 08:43:03 pm »
No, the Neocons are the moderate Republican wing. Globalism. New World Order.

Rejecting civil-libertarianism, fiscal conservatism, paying lip service to the Christian Right for the votes, and DEFCONS for the power they need to shape their version of utopia.

They coined the term 'Neoconservative'. Kinder, gentler conservatism...  *****rollingeyes*****

They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2020, 03:09:09 am »
No, the Neocons are the moderate Republican wing. Globalism. New World Order.

Rejecting civil-libertarianism, fiscal conservatism, paying lip service to the Christian Right for the votes, and DEFCONS for the power they need to shape their version of utopia.

They coined the term 'Neoconservative'. Kinder, gentler conservatism...  *****rollingeyes*****

They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.
"They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.
That's a ridiculous statement.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2020, 04:36:19 am »
"They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.
That's a ridiculous statement.
-------------------------------
Ridiculous??? Hardly!
Put Krissy Kristol on the left side of the couch and Maxie Boot on the right side.
Then let them run off at the mouth for 5 minutes about policy and they'll
sound like clones of Marx and Rousseau!!!!!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 04:35:21 pm by Absalom »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2020, 04:50:39 am »
"They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.
That's a ridiculous statement.

Sorry to rain light on your Republican Parade. Consider for a moment the Hegelian dialectic - Absolute opposites to encourage the compromise - The moderate way... Put that in political terms and guess who is going to win.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2020, 07:45:08 am »
No, the Neocons are the moderate Republican wing. Globalism. New World Order.

Rejecting civil-libertarianism, fiscal conservatism, paying lip service to the Christian Right for the votes, and DEFCONS for the power they need to shape their version of utopia.

They coined the term 'Neoconservative'. Kinder, gentler conservatism...  *****rollingeyes*****

They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.

@roamer_1

I couldn't agree more,and will add that a more despicable creature can't be found anywhere.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2020, 07:47:10 am »
"They are every bit as dangerous to the Right as the liberals are.
That's a ridiculous statement.

@goatprairie

WRONG! It is the absolute truth. The formal left are easier to fight because they are trying to stab in the front,not your back.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 07:48:26 am »
@roamer_1

I couldn't agree more,and will add that a more despicable creature can't be found anywhere.

 :beer:

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2020, 11:27:45 am »
@goatprairie

WRONG! It is the absolute truth. The formal left are easier to fight because they are trying to stab in the front,not your back.
Baloney.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Are Neocons Really Back In The Trump Administration?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2020, 02:24:32 pm »
Baloney.

@goatprairie

You are still maintaining the backstabbing RINO's are less dangerous than their Dim masters?

Who is more dangerous to you,a crackhead child living at home with keys to the house and cars,or a burglar that has to make sure no one is home before breaking in and hoping there is no alarm?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!