Faulty Equipment, Lapsed Training, Repeated Warnings: How a Preventable Disaster Killed Six Marines

[SZonian]

@SZonian

It's enough to make you wonder about how corporate CEO's can be held legally responsible for the wrongs THEIR organizations do,yet the military version of CEO's goes blame free because they are allowed to pass the blame down the ladder.

How can this be possible in any rational world? Corporate CEO's are only responsible for profits. Military "CEO's" are responsible for the safety of the nation. Shouldn't THEY be held to the same standards as corporate CEO's,at a MINIMUM?

@sneakypete
The corporate structure isn't much better. I work for a Fortune 500 aerospace company and I see much of the same thing. People placed into positions not based on merit, but on how they're "perceived". I saw it in the military where people of equal rank were in line for a position and the "golden boy" was chosen for the plum assignment that would "help" him get promoted. I imagine the officer corps isn't much different.

The one thing I see is that pushing "accountability" and programs like it are more about shielding than actually teaching. In my example above about meeting a deadline, yet doing it "by the book"; If I caved to the pressure to meet the deadline and didn't work by the book and got caught by QA, it was my ass and my ass alone. Supervision had "cover" for telling me to do it by the book. If I did it by the book and missed the schedule, I'd get nicked in my performance reports for not meeting "standards".

So I chose sleeping good at night vs. the gnawing uncertainty of whether or not I missed a step or some other act that made the aircraft questionable. Because I had been taught a lesson back in 1987, early in my career, by a certain MSgt at Dover AFB. I screwed up, huge. It was a pressure type mistake, but it was mine and he made me own it (accountability). Made me go back out on the line riding with the dayshift crew (I worked mids), open up every engine cowling I'd worked in until I found the tool I left behind. He was waiting for me when I returned with a Letter of Counseling and an ass chewing of epic proportions.  Now some would say, "What's the big deal in that?" The loss of trust by your peers and one's supervisors meant something back then. Sitting in a truck with a crew that's not your own and knowing that they know you screwed up. "Fixing" my lapse in judgement by myself, giving me time to ponder my decision. I've never allowed something like that to creep into my thinking again.

I see the same in my current job from many of those in management. They accept unrealistic schedules and flow those down to us doing the work. I see where others have made impactful decisions and were not held accountable. I see where so-called "leaders" are afraid to act and behave as leaders towards those in their charge. Verbal counseling of a screw-up is rarely meted out, let alone actual discipline. I'm currently aware of a situation where a program manager has intentionally falsified engineering data to a customer. He's been reported to "Ethics" and upper level management, yet nothing has been done. Our people are removing themselves from the chain so to speak, memos for records, meetings with peers, etc. in order to ensure we've documented all that we can in preparation for the shit storm that's going to occur once it's "discovered" by the customer. And I've witnessed many of these same things at a USAF base while assigned to a unit with active military and USG civilians.

"Leaders" in today's world are either simply lazy or afraid to do what needs to be done to teach true accountability. It also doesn't help that, at least in the USAF, it's a "one mistake" service. "I don't want to hurt this kid's career by writing him up." Well, you've just taught him that he's not accountable and guaranteed that he will screw up again. I personally don't want to work with people who won't accept responsibility for their actions in my line of work. The lives of aircrew and very expensive aircraft are at stake.

Our society is failing many of our children because they're not taught properly what true accountability is and the role that responsibility plays in it.

[SZonian]

There are a lot of fighter pilots that are field grade (04 -06) officers.

Yep. I've known quite a few in the USAF.

Even had a "mustang" make O-6 and command a flight test squadron while still flying.

[don-o]

@sneakypete @jpsb @EdinVA @SZonian @truth_seeker @rangerrebew @LonestarDream @roamer_1 @Cyber Liberty

Thanks to all who have posted to this thread. I have an appointment with my Congressman's (Roe TN-1) aide. Roe is a vet - was a doctor served in Korea. The aide asked me for my major concerns in written form. Here's what I got.
I figure I can expound  when we meet.

   My concerns were raised from reading an article. Published Dec 30, 2019
Faulty Equipment, Lapsed Training, Repeated Warnings: How a Preventable Disaster Killed Six Marines
https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard
One F-18 fighter jet and one KC-130 tanker crashed. Six Marines died.
Among my concerns:
1. A non fatal refueling accident occurred in 2016 which was not investigated until the 2018 fatal accident.

2. The Squadron Commander, Lt. Col. James Compton  had previously advised his superiors, repeatedly, of his concerns regarding combat readiness of his squadron, citing lack of parts for repair, lack of experienced maintainers and as a result of that, actual flight hours, well below minimum standards (9.4 actual vs 15.7 actual). Nothing was done to address his warnings.

3. As a result of the official investigation, Compton, along with other field grade officers were relieved of command. He consequently left the  marines and cooperated with the private investigation mentioned above, To my mind. This lends great credibility.

4. The immediate run up to the accident raises questions of real accountability, which the official report, which placed it at squadron level.  Maj. Gen. Thomas Weidley, the top Marine Corps aviation commander in the region, despite President Trump's cancellation of war games with South Korea, ordered several squadrons to proceed with a week of 24/7 operations.

5. Protocol is for pilots to be given four weeks to adjust their sleep schedules. In this instance, they were given a few days.

6. In addition to the official report (1600+ pages of it), a safety board conducted a separate investigation. It was not made public, but the private investigators got it. Compton's allegations are confirmed.

7. Back to the event itself...it took over 12 hours to recover the dead F-18 pilot. He had survived for 11 hours. This itself is an astounding chain of sheer idiocy in action. Refer to the private investigation for details.

[don-o]

@sneakypete
The corporate structure isn't much better. 

We need "like" buttons or some such on here. 

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete @jpsb @EdinVA @SZonian @truth_seeker @rangerrebew @LonestarDream @roamer_1 @Cyber Liberty

Thanks to all who have posted to this thread. I have an appointment with my Congressman's (Roe TN-1) aide. Roe is a vet - was a doctor served in Korea. The aide asked me for my major concerns in written form. Here's what I got.
I figure I can expound  when we meet.

 My concerns were raised from reading an article. 

@don-o

I sincerely hope you retracted your last name and your son's name from that letter,or you just killed his career in the USMC. If you didn't,PLEASE contact that Congresscritter and SERIOUSLY ask  him to take both your name,your son's name,and his squadron off of any paperwork he presents to the USMC,or anyone else.

Try to see if you rewrite it as "a friend of a friend reports.......",or at least get it referred to that way.

If you think Corporate America doesn't like whistle-blowers,ask your son how the US Navy/USMC thinks about them.

To any others reading this with children or other relatives in the military that you think are getting hosed,or put into danger due to official neglect,it is perfectly fine to name your child or relative/friend/whatever as long as they are lower-ranked enlisted personnel with no career to lose. It they are career NCO's or Officers,go out of your way to avoid mentioning their name or any other identifier on the record.

Yeah,I know. It really shouldn't be that way,but it is.

BTW,this very issue is one of the big reasons I was so opposed to ending the draft. A E-3 draftee that has less than two years to go before he gets discharged and hates the freaking military has nothing to lose and doesn't give a damn won't hesitate an instant to get his congressman on the phone to complain about anything he sees or hears about that is illegal or unsafe. Someone with a career at risk has a lot more to lose.

BTW,MY favorite trick before I became a NCO and wanted something done or undone,like getting a weekend off at least once a month,was to go to the company SGM and tell him I wanted to file an application to be accepted at West Point. That NEVER failed. LOTS of paperwork involved,and I had the test scores and good recommendations in my 201 file that would get me there,so there was no way he could refuse.

The truth is,and the SGM knew it,was that nobody would have been more horrified than me if he had done it and I got accepted. With VERY few exceptions,I did NOT play well with ring-knockers,and at that time there were VERY few of them in SF because SF wasn't a branch,and that was a career-killer.  To this very day there is nothing on this planet that is a finer thing to be than an SF NCO in MY mind. I even turned down a chance to go to OCS to get a commission,and then straight back to SF to be a XO on an A team because NCO's had more fun and didn't have to operate under all the restrictions that officers had to deal with. I was even promised they would bring me right back to the 1st Group on Okinawa right after I graduated from the SF Officers course. That was some sweet duty back in the 60's.

I took a discharge and turned down a promotion if I would re-enlist after being medi-evaced from VN and being transferred  out of SF because I was on a permanent physical profile that kept me from wearing web gear or a parachute harness,or that would have prevented me from taking daily showers. I tried being an NCO in a conventional unit for a few months,and hated it. It was more like being a prison guard or a babysitter than it was being a NCO. I literally had no other work to do than babysit people who didn't want to be there and whose prime concern was seeing who could do the least. Worst of all,I couldn't really blame them given the way they were treated by their NCO's and officers. Nobody respected anybody.

[don-o]

@don-o

I sincerely hope you retracted your last name and your son's name from that letter,or you just killed his career in the USMC. If you didn't,PLEASE contact that Congresscritter and SERIOUSLY ask  him to take both your name,your son's name,and his squadron off of any paperwork he presents to the USMC,or anyone else.

 

@sneakypete
Point well taken. I already spoke on the phone but nothing has been delivered in writing. I will delete any personal reference, but he already knows he was speaking with a constituent. He is not going to proceed with anything until we meet. Off your warning, I just put in a call to the aide to relay your apt thought. Though upper East Tennessee is is mostly full of normal Americans, I do realize the dangers of which you speak once the snakes in DC get involved.

[don-o]

@sneakypete
I deleted the personal in my post. Would you detente it in the quote you made in reply?

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete
I deleted the personal in my post. Would you detente it in the quote you made in reply?

@don-o

Done!

You might want to ask Myst and see if she can remove it from the archives,or whatever needs to be done to make sure it is never seen again.

[don-o]

@don-o

Done!

You might want to ask Myst and see if she can remove it from the archives,or whatever needs to be done to make sure it is never seen again.

Thanks Pete

@mystery-ak
I put in some personal info in my reply 27 on this thread which @sneakypete copied down thread when he suggested that might not be wise to share. Both have been deleted by me and Pete. My question is does the original exist in any archive and if so can it be deleted. Maybe a little paranoid, but better safe that sorry. Any blowback my son got would kill me.

[thackney]

@sneakypete
The corporate structure isn't much better.

Contractor creed:  Schedule, Quality and Cost.  The client only gets to pick two.

[mystery-ak]

Thanks Pete

@mystery-ak
I put in some personal info in my reply 27 on this thread which @sneakypete copied down thread when he suggested that might not be wise to share. Both have been deleted by me and Pete. My question is does the original exist in any archive and if so can it be deleted. Maybe a little paranoid, but better safe that sorry. Any blowback my son got would kill me.

@don-o you're safe...you edited your post...if you deleted it it would show up in the archives...

[don-o]

@don-o you're safe...you edited your post...if you deleted it it would show up in the archives...

Thanks a lot @mystery-ak