Author Topic: Smile! You're on Candid Camera  (Read 1148 times)

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Offline EasyAce

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Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« on: November 13, 2019, 05:21:53 pm »
Baseball's had Spygate scandals before the Astros' TV eye was opened. But . . .
By Yours Truly
https://throneberryfields.com/2019/11/13/smile-youre-on-candid-camera/


The Polo Grounds clubhouse behind center field.
Leo Durocher’s coach Herman Franks sat in one of
the windows with a spy glass buzzing stolen signs
to the Giants bullpen down the 1951 stretch and
possibly in the fabled pennant playoff.


Once upon a time there was a major league catcher whose eventual biography was called The Catcher Was a Spy. But Moe Berg took up his life with the old Office of Strategic Services after his baseball career expired.

Other than possible on-field gamesmanship, Berg wasn’t exactly known for applying advanced surveillance techniques to baseball when he played. The well-educated catcher about whom it was said he mastered a dozen languages but couldn’t hit in any of them waited until World War II to practise intelligence.

After that life ended for him, Berg lived as best he could as a nomadic shadow man who preferred the company of those who’d ask him anything except about himself. And his is the only known baseball card on display at the headquarters of the CIA.

There may be some now who think a few more ought to join Berg’s card there. A few Astros, a couple of Red Sox and Yankees, a Phillie or three, a couple of Braves and Tigers, a Giant or three yonder, and maybe a few more elsewhere.

That, of course, would depend on whether baseball’s government is serious about investigating espionage in the ranks, now that former Astros/current Athletics pitcher Mike Fiers has, shall we say, pulled some of the deep cover away from an apparent high-tech sign-stealing operation by the Astros Intelligence Agency.

An ESPN writer, Buster Olney, advises one and all not to hold their breaths. Partially because the Astros say they’re investigating their own cheating, which some might compare to a police department investigating its own corruption:

It probably took longer for the Astros to generate the statement about the forthcoming investigation than the actual investigation should require — that is to say, two phone calls, to ask two questions.

Astros owner Jim Crane can call Jeff Luhnow, Houston’s general manager and head of baseball operations, and ask: What happened?

And if Luhnow doesn’t know, he can call his video operator and ask: What happened? That’s all it should take.

As Groucho Marx once said, it’s so simple that a child of five could do it—now, somebody send for a child of five. All things considered, that might not be a half bad idea. But this isn’t five-year-old children playing Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. These are (it is alleged) grown men playing all’s fair in baseball and war.

Fiers told The Athletic‘s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Dillich that the 2017 Astros had a camera in center field tied to a large television set stationed adjacent to the steps from the clubhouse to the dugout. Assorted Astros (Fiers didn’t name names) would see the catcher’s signs on the set, decipher them, and relay them to Astro hitters in two shakes of a tail feather.

Runners on base or coaches on the lines catching, deciphering, and relaying stolen signs merely with their eyes and hands are guilty only of gamesmanship. Aided by technology off the field, it’s grand theft. And before anyone gets the brilliant idea that the Astros invented it, let it be said that they’ve taken it to its technologically logical 2010s extreme but they weren’t exactly the first to even think about it.

“Every team with a scoreboard in center field has a spy inside at one time or another,” wrote Hall of Famer Rogers Hornsby in his memoir—called My War with Baseball. Longtime catcher/coach/manager Birdie Tebbetts once told a Boston newspaper the 1940 Tigers didn’t have a spy in center field but a pitcher in the seats with binoculars—helping those Tigers lead the league in runs and win the pennant by a game.

Two decades later, the Braves were caught playing The Riddle of the Stands, when two presumed fans in the Wrigley Field bleachers turned out to be pitchers Bob Buhl and Joey Jay, posing as bleacher creatures but relaying signs stolen by binoculars to the Braves dugout.

But the 1951 Giants had a spy in the center field clubhouse of the Polo Grounds. When Leo Durocher discovered a former Cub now a Giant (Hank Schenz) owned a Wollensak spy glass—which he used to steal signs from Wrigley Field’s center field scoreboard—Durocher couldn’t resist, deploying coach Herman Franks to the clubhouse, spyglass in hand.

From there, Franks would catch the opposition catcher’s signs through the spyglass darkly and relay them to the Giants bullpen, from whence quick flashes of tiny but visible light would tell Giant hitters who wanted the purloined signals what was coming up to the plate. Yes, children, the Giants stole the pennant! The Giants stole the pennant!

The 1951 Dodgers suspected Durocher was up to something down that stretch—the Giants came back from thirteen games out to force the pennant playoff—but when they thought about catching his surveillance cold with their own pair of binoculars an umpire confiscated the field glasses post haste. Can’t have the cheated playing tit-for-tat against the cheaters, you know.

In due course, and after the Giants moved to San Francisco, an infielder on the 1951 pennant cheaters (er, winners), Bill Rigney, now managing the team, fashioned a simpler system in 1959 to keep the Braves at bay while two games ahead with ten left in the season: the spy would simply close and open certain scoreboard slats to relay pilfered signs.

Rigney also found a player objecting to that bright idea, relief pitcher Al Worthington. A man of deep Christian beliefs, Worthington persuaded Rigney to knock it off unless he wanted Worthington to walk off the team. Rigney knocked it off. The Braves ended up in a pennant playoff with the eventual winning Dodgers.

“I told Bill that I had been talking to church groups, telling people you don’t have to lie or cheat in this world if you trust Jesus Christ,” Worthington told a magazine writer. “How could I go on saying those things if I was winning games because my team was cheating?”

But when Worthington was traded to the White Sox, after their 1959 American League pennant, he was slightly surprised to discover general manager Hank Greenberg’s crew had a binocular sign-stealing system in full swing. And that he couldn’t discourage Greenberg quite the way he discouraged Rigney.

“Baseball is a game where you try to get away with everything you can,” Greenberg told the stolid relief pitcher. “You cut corners when you run the bases. If you trap a ball in the outfield, you swear you caught it. Everybody tries to cheat a little.” Worthington took a hike. Trying to trade him, the White Sox discovered Worthington now had a reputation as a nutbag.

Let’s see. Greenberg couldn’t quite enunciate the distinction between corner cutting on the bases, ball trapping in the outfield, and spying, buzzing, and binocularity. And Worthington needed psychiatric attention? (In due course, Worthington returned to the Show, first with the Reds, and then with the pennant-winning 1965 Twins.)

Sometimes teams have been caught red Octobered. In 2010 a Phillies bullpen coach, Mick Billmeyer, was caught on camera sitting on the bullpen bench with binoculars up to his eyes. Billmeyer claimed he was only monitoring Phillies catcher Carlos Ruiz’s positioning, but the Rockies television broadcast caught Billmeyer training his binoculars on Rockies catcher Miguel Olivo.

Charlie Manuel, then the Phillies’ manager, gave a beauty of an explanation afterward. “We were not trying to steal signs,” he told a reporter. “Would we try to steal somebody’s signs? Yeah, if we can. But we don’t do that. We’re not going to let a guy stand up there in the bullpen with binoculars looking in. We’re smarter than that.” Don’t ask.

Billmeyer may only have acted upon the impulse of franchise history. The 1899 Phillies got caught red handed with high tech for the time sign stealing, in which a buzzer under the third base coaching line would give a tiny shock to third base coach Pearce Chiles standing atop it—while it was hidden under wet grass.

Reds catcher Tommy Corcoran suspected the coach’s leg twitches and dug his spikes until he hit the board under which the shocker was tucked. Thus was spiked the Phillies’ prehistoric electrotheft, which began with third-string catcher Morgan Murphy hiding behind a center field ad using binoculars to get the opposing signs and relay them by buzzer to Chiles. As if that was liable to be the end of it.

The same year Billmeyer got bagged, Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina caught on to someone in Petco Park’s center field camera well, in a Padres’ sport shirt, brandishing binoculars and clutching a walkie talkie while he was at it. If you think he was chatting between innings with his kids in the grandstands, I have a cane .45 to sell you cheap.

In this decade, maybe the second most suspected of baseball intelligence operations was the Blue Jays, mostly around their once-infamous Man in White—believed to be sitting behind center field in Rogers Centre relaying signs. There were those who believed he was in business up to and including the 2015 American League Championship Series.

And while last year the Indians (eliminated in the division series) warned the Red Sox (who won the pennant and the World Series) to beware Astro infiltration, the previous year a Red Sox trainer was caught deploying an Apple Watch to steal Yankee signs. Which may have been the pot dressing the kettle black: the Red Sox complained the Empire Emeritus used cameras of their YES broadcast network to spy on the Olde Towne Team in-game.

That provided the only known instance in which current commissioner Rob Manfred has punished anyone for espionage, fining the Red Sox and harrumphing that “all thirty clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”

Lest you think baseball’s high-tech black bag jobbers get away with murder entirely, be advised. The 1899 Phillies finished third behind the National League pennant-winning Brooklyn Superbas (the Dodgers to be). The 1940 Tigers lost the World Series in seven to the Reds. The 1951 Giants were flattened by the Yankees in five in that Series. The 1960 Braves finished second and seven back of the pennant and World Series winning Pirates; the 1960 White Sox finished ten back of the pennant-winning Yankees.

The 2010 Phillies won the National League East but lost the National League Championship Series to the Giants; the 2010 Padres finished second to the Giants in the NL West. The Blue Jays still haven’t been seen anywhere near the World Series since the Clinton Administration. The 2017 Red Sox got pushed to one side by the Astros in the division series.

And, if you assume the Astros didn’t quite put the AIA out of business this year, it did them no favours in this year’s World Series. They had the postseason home field advantage, but the Nats won the Series on the road entirely. If the Astros were stealing signs electronically this time around, it qualifies as maybe the single most inept case of spy-ops since the Watergate burglary.

Reds pitcher Trevor Bauer is known as a drone builder and lover. Before the 2019 All-Star Game in Cleveland—and before the Indians traded him to the Reds—Bauer deployed one of his mechanical flying pets to tour the empty park taking footage, demonstrating potential television broadcast advancement. On another occasion, a Bauer drone followed Indians outfielder Tyler Naquin running out a game-winning inside-the-park home run.

How large a jump would it prove to be from Bauer’s hobbying to a team developing enough drone expertise to hover them over the park on behalf of a new kind of in-game intelligence operation? Would baseball’s next great technological development then be not robot umpires but teams developing strategic defense initiatives? (Will we spend the seventh-inning stretch singing, “Take me out to the spy games?”)

If Mike Fiers has hit the buzzer properly, and if baseball dicks perform the genuine investigation the Astros may not prefer to do, Manfred isn’t long before having the chance to do something more than harrumph that he’s going to . . . be very, very angry at anyone caught playing “Smile! You’re on Candid Camera!” again.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2019, 05:51:58 pm »
@EasyAce

Any article which quotes Groucho Marx, well, I have to respond.
 :cool:

(1) The issue currently at hand is the year 2017.
In the regular season, they were better on the road than at home.
If they were doing this at home, they weren't very good at it.

(2) While The Atlantic article says this was a major concern throughout the league, they only bring up the Astros, and Fiers and 3 other un-named sources.
Why just the Astros?

(3) Fiers was a starter, so he was in the bullpen 4 of of 5 games, until he wasn't, and became reliever. At best, he was in the dugout roughly 20 home games the entire year.
Current Mets manager Carlos Beltran (congratulations) was was in the dugout the whole year, and his story in the New York Post seems more plausible than Fiers, for that reason alone, I side with Beltran, but I think overall Beltran has a higher character, in my own opinion of the two.

(4) I've watch the video that the Yankee fan Jonboy, or whatever his name was, released with Evan Gattis at the plate, facing Farquhar, and it seems inconclusive that it was real-time video sign stealing. Perhaps a "tell" or a previous runner on second?
The rest of the game doesn't have those "bangs" in it, so it is only at that at bat?
Seems odd.

(5) Perhaps some NY-BOS-LA media disgruntlement? Surely, those lowly Astros couldn't beat NY-BOS-LA in the same year without cheating could they?/sarc.

(6) Without electronic surveillance, someone on 2nd base steals a sign and relays it to the dugout, who in turn, relays a sign to the batter, and this is legal.
Electronically, it is not, which is fine, but neither is audibly, evidently, according to this years "whistling"  scandal vs the Yankees in Game one of the ALCS, which, again, the Astros lost.
 
(7) How much, if anything, does the Astros handling of the Taubman/Osuna/Reporter debacle play in t this? Did it help to insure that they will have a targer on their back, which every move being scrutinized? Or, is this just a product of winning, ala the New England Patriots/Dallas Cowboys/New York Yankees/Boston Celtics/L.A. Lakers (teams people seem to love to hate)?

« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:00:07 pm by GrouchoTex »

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2019, 06:07:55 pm »
@EasyAce

Any article which quotes Groucho Marx, well, I have to respond.
 :cool:
@GrouchoTex

I knew that one was coming! (And I didn't need a camera or a spy glass and buzzer, either.)  wink777

(1) The issue currently at hand is the year 2017.
In the regular season, they were better on the road than at home.
If they were doing this at home, they weren't very good at it.
Which is also why I said that if anyone suspects they were also doing it this year (nobody's accused them formally yet, and even regarding 2017 they're only thought to have done it at home) it was the most inept case of spy-ops since the Watergate burglary.

(2) While The Atlantic article says this was a major concern throughout the league, they only bring up the astros, and Fiers and 3 other un-named sources.
Why just the Astros?
Probably because Fiers spoke of the Astros specifically.

(3) Fiers was a starter, so he was in the bullpen 4 of of 5 games, until he wasn't, and became reliever. At best, he was in the dugout roughly 20 home games the entire year.
Current Mets manager Carlos Beltran (congratulations) was was in the dugout the whole year, and his story in the New York Post seems more plausible than Fiers, for that reason alone, I side with Beltran, but I think overall Beltran has a higher character, in my own opinion of the two.
It's also possible Beltran wasn't a player who liked using stolen signs. I think I mentioned in an earlier piece that, in 1951, Leo Durocher was absolutely astonished that at least two of his Giants---Hall of Famers Monte Irvin and Willie Mays---didn't want stolen signs, too. As if it showed character flaws---on their part, so far as Durocher was concerned.

But even if you're only in the dugout twenty times a year, you can still catch on to what the Astro setup in 2017 was.

(4) I've watch the video that the Yankee fan Jonboy, or whatever his name was, released with Evan Gattis at the plate, facing Farquhar, and it seems inconclusive that it was real-time video sign stealing. Perhaps a "tell" or a previous runner on second?
The rest of the game doesn't have those "bangs" in it, so it is only at that at bat?
Seems odd.
Many things seem odd regarding stuff like this.

(5) Perhaps some NY-BOS-LA media disgruntlement? Surely, those lowly Astros couldn't beat NY-BOS-LA in the same year without cheating could they?/sarc.
I said myself in the first piece I wrote---it would have been tough to do in a World Series (never mind the Astros winning it in a road game) because of the stadium racket, if they were using banging on a can to send a pilfered sign to the dugout and the hitters, you wouldn't have been able to hear it.

(6) Without electronic surveillance, someone on 2nd base steals a sign and relays it to the dugout, who in turn, relays a sign to the batter, and this is legal.
That's what I made a point of saying, in both essays.

Electronically, it is not, which is fine, but neither is audibly, evidently, according to this years "whistling"  scandal vs the Yankees in Game one of the ALCS, which, again, the Astros lost.
Keep in mind, too, what I noted in this piece---the high-tech cheaters, the spyglassers, buzzers, binocularity boys, bullpen light flashers (remember, that's how the '51 Giants transmitted stolen signs to the hitters who wanted them) don't always win in the end. Reference the 1889 Phillies, the 1940 Tigers, the 1951 Giants, the 1960 Braves and White Sox, the 2010 Phillies and Padres, maybe most of the 2010s Blue Jays. (I've just done a little more reading and the 1980s White Sox were often suspected of a little off-field spy work, too, it turns out.)
 
(7) how much, if anything, does the Astros handling of the Taubman/Osuna/Reporter debacle play in t this? Did it help to insure that they will have a targer on their back, which every move being scrutinized? Or, is this just a product of winning, ala the New England Patriots/Dallas Cowboys/New York Yankees/Boston Celtics/L.A. Lakers (teams people seem to love to hate)?
By itself, the Taubman-viz-domestic violence-viz-Sports Illustrated reporter debacle doesn't. But if baseball's government is going to investigate the Astros over their camera crime, and they're still questioning Taubman over the domestic violence/Osuna/reporter incident, they may think to ask him as well what he knows and how much he knows about the camera sign-stealing. Taubman wouldn't be baseball's first front office executive to have that kind of knowledge if he has it, as Hank Greenberg could have told you.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline xyno

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2019, 06:24:56 pm »
Here is the referenced video.  Be sure to have sound on.


Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:28:04 pm by xyno »

Online Bigun

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 06:29:42 pm »
Stealing signs is as old as baseball. So what if the Astros have used modern tech to aid their efforts in doing it?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 06:47:27 pm »
Did they cheat?
Of course, I do not know 100%.
I will say that my first reaction was disappointment, as in "Dang, the rumors are true"!"
Part of my disappointment comes from when the Astros started the re-building process, and started winning in 2015, their marketing slogan , was "Root for the Good Guys".
Supposedly, they were using character as one of their metrics, regarding the hiring and acquiring of players and personnel.
Perhaps, naively, I bought into it.

The first let down came when we traded for Osuna.
In fairness, he's been a model citizen in Houston, and the charges were dropped in Canada.
Yet, MLB did suspend him, so there must something to this, unless MLB got it wrong somehow, which seems unlikely.

First Taubman, and now this.

Both Reid Ryan and Nolan are both leaving.
Also, their PR Twitter guy is leaving.
All sounded very gracious in their goodbye speeches.

Did they know something?
Were they complicit?
Did the Astros front office know this was coming and wanted to make sure they protected the reputation of these 3?
I wonder if we will ever know.

Been a heckuva off season, and it is only November.

If this were another team, like the dreaded Yankees, I'd hate to admit it, but I'd be yelling "Hang'em, Hang'em High! Never mind, Hangin's too good for 'em", which is what the reaction has been towards the Astros from all the fans of the other 29 teams on twitter last night.

 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:57:35 pm by GrouchoTex »

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 07:13:45 pm »
Stealing signs is as old as baseball. So what if the Astros have used modern tech to aid their efforts in doing it?

Stealing is a sin.

No true Conservative would steal a thing.

Don't believe me?   Ask @roamer_1     


 :laugh:
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Online Bigun

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 07:20:10 pm »
Did they cheat?
Of course, I do not know 100%.
I will say that my first reaction was disappointment, as in "Dang, the rumors are true"!"
Part of my disappointment comes from when the Astros started the re-building process, and started winning in 2015, their marketing slogan , was "Root for the Good Guys".
Supposedly, they were using character as one of their metrics, regarding the hiring and acquiring of players and personnel.
Perhaps, naively, I bought into it.

The first let down came when we traded for Osuna.
In fairness, he's been a model citizen in Houston, and the charges were dropped in Canada.
Yet, MLB did suspend him, so there must something to this, unless MLB got it wrong somehow, which seems unlikely.

First Taubman, and now this.

Both Reid Ryan and Nolan are both leaving.
Also, their PR Twitter guy is leaving.
All sounded very gracious in their goodbye speeches.

Did they know something?
Were they complicit?
Did the Astros front office know this was coming and wanted to make sure they protected the reputation of these 3?
I wonder if we will ever know.

Been a heckuva off season, and it is only November.

If this were another team, like the dreaded Yankees, I'd hate to admit it, but I'd be yelling "Hang'em, Hang'em High! Never mind, Hangin's too good for 'em", which is what the reaction has been towards the Astros from all the fans of the other 29 teams on twitter last night.

 

I would make a sizeable bet that every team in both leagues does something similar.  Been going on since signs were invented in baseball and will be going on when the last game is played.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 07:29:49 pm »
Stealing signs is as old as baseball. So what if the Astros have used modern tech to aid their efforts in doing it?

I think teams finally got the definition of what "modern tech" applies, as of the beginning of this year, but I think they knew anyway.
Steal signs with your eyes and transmit the info via sign language only (the baseball variety), seems to be the bottom line.

As @EasyAce points out, it would be hard to do this in the world Series with all to noise going on.
How about during a regular season game?
It seems kind of stupid to audibly pass on the type of upcoming pitch.
If the batter can hear it, can't the catcher, the umpire, etc?



Offline EasyAce

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 07:34:02 pm »
Did they cheat?
Of course, I do not know 100%.
I will say that my first reaction was disappointment, as in "Dang, the rumors are true"!"
Part of my disappointment comes from when the Astros started the re-building process, and started winning in 2015, their marketing slogan , was "Root for the Good Guys".
Supposedly, they were using character as one of their metrics, regarding the hiring and acquiring of players and personnel.
Perhaps, naively, I bought into it.
The number one image the Astros seem to have is that the team on the field is gifted and engaging---I agree with that, enough that when they won the 2017 World Series I bought an Astros game hat with the World Series champions logo on the right side---but the front office is lacking very seriously in people skills.

The first let down came when we traded for Osuna.
In fairness, he's been a model citizen in Houston, and the charges were dropped in Canada.
Yet, MLB did suspend him, so there must something to this, unless MLB got it wrong somehow, which seems unlikely.
The charges were dropped after Osuna signed a formal agreement to have no contact with the woman in question for a year to follow.

What you may not know (I didn't until recently) is that the deal to acquire Osuna wasn't even close to adored around the front office. (Maybe not in the whole clubhouse, either, if you remember pitcher Justin Verlander being very outspoken against domestic violence and very ambivalent when the Osuna deal was made.) In The MVP Machine, which focuses on forward-thinking teams including the Astros, authors Ben Lindbergh and Travis Sawchik wrote thus:

Front office members have clashed over a series of subjects, including how much information to share with scouts, how many scouts to employ, and whether to trade for reliever Roberto Osuna, whose 2018 acquisition in the middle of a domestic violence suspension---followed by Luhnow's convoluted attempt to square the swap with a supposed "zero-tolerance policy related to abuse of any kind"---caused a public backlash. According to multiple sources, most or all of the front office was strongly opposed to that trade, but Luhnow---who had earlier been talked out of drafting Oregon State pitcher and convicted child molester Luke Heimlich---rammed it through regardless, with [owner Jim] Crane's support. The same pursuit of inefficiencies that prompted the GM and owner to strip-mine the roster and revamp player development convinced them to cross a line that many of their own recruits considered morally reprehensible.

Now Taubman and this.

Been a heckuva off season, and it is only November.
Jeff Luhnow isn't helping Astro fans any by saying things such as this, which he said during a break for media interviews at this week's general managers meetings:

I know in the last couple of weeks there’s been a lot of news surrounding the Houston Astros and it’s not been good news. I’m disappointed in that. I think these incidents and topics are not tied together, but they obviously have come one after another, it seems like. It is disappointing and if there is an issue we need to address we will address it.
Disappointed? A leader who discovers plausibly that there's high-tech cheating in the ranks shouldn't be "disappointed," he should be finding which heads should roll and dropping the guillotine blade himself.

Unfortunately, it doesn't and hasn't worked that way. Ask, for example, any police department riddled with corruption but doing nothing about it until a Frank Serpico in New York gets shot in the face in an apparent (suspected, anyway) setup after he begins trying to expose that corruption. They tried to call him just another disgruntled cop, too (when the then-police commissioner wasn't calling him a "psycho"), before the Knapp Commission hearings finished the job Serpico and the late David Durk started in pulling the covers on just how corrupt the NYPD was at the time.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 07:44:14 pm »
Stealing signs is as old as baseball. So what if the Astros have used modern tech to aid their efforts in doing it?
@Bigun
Because it just so happens to be, specifically, against the rules to use any kind technology off the playing field---whether spy glasses and buzzers and lights in the stands, the clubhouse (in the case of the old Polo Grounds clubhouse out behind center field), or the scoreboard (as was once done through such scoreboards as Wrigley Field and Seals Stadium, to name two), or cameras to television sets---to do it, that's so what.

Stealing signs from a position on the bases or on the coaching lines or from the dugouts? Old fashioned gamesmanship.* Stealing signs the high tech way and away from the actual playing field? Official no-no.

* Though sometimes, even old-fashioned gamesmanship backfires. Once upon a time, when Dwight Evans was still playing right field for the Red Sox, and Marty Barrett was still their second baseman, Evans hatched an idea: he wanted Barrett to send him the Red Sox catchers' signs (Barrett had a better bead on them playing second base than Evans possibly could in right field) the better to enable Evans to adjust his field positioning on the fly on batted balls. Barrett would give Evans a decoded sign with a hand gesture behind his back.

Their little plan lasted only long enough before the Blue Jays' bullpen caught onto Barrett's behind-the-back sign relays . . . and flashed them back to their hitters in turn, giving the hitters a shot at hitting 'em where Evans ain't, so to say. There went the Evans/Barrett positioning plan.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 07:47:17 pm by EasyAce »


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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2019, 07:48:52 pm »
@Bigun
Because it just so happens to be, specifically, against the rules to use any kind technology off the playing field---whether spy glasses and buzzers and lights in the stands, the clubhouse (in the case of the old Polo Grounds clubhouse out behind center field), or the scoreboard (as was once done through such scoreboards as Wrigley Field and Seals Stadium, to name two), or cameras to television sets---to do it, that's so what.

OK, now tell me when that has ever stopped such things @EasyAce.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2019, 07:55:38 pm »
Stealing is a sin.

No true Conservative would steal a thing.

Don't believe me?   Ask @roamer_1     


 :laugh:
@DCPatriot
Which suddenly reminds me of Billy Martin---once, when he was managing the Yankees, Martin had a sign he'd flash to put a double steal on: he'd touch his nose almost in a blink, giving the runners the cue to take off.

The problem: One fine day, with the Yankees having first and second, Martin had to sneeze. Instinctively, he reached to cover his nose with his hand---and the two Yankees took off. And were dead ducks, since the lead Yankee had a fat lead off the pad and a pickoff play was on. Martin's double-steal sneeze inadvertently ran the Yankees into a double play without the ball even being batted. As you might expect, Martin found another sign for a double steal post haste.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2019, 08:00:00 pm »
What you may not know (I didn't until recently) is that the deal to acquire Osuna wasn't even close to adored around the front office. (Maybe not in the whole clubhouse, either, if you remember pitcher Justin Verlander being very outspoken against domestic violence and very ambivalent when the Osuna deal was made.)

@EasyAce

We heard rumblings.
We knew the players didn't like the idea, Verlander spoke out, he wasn't alone, and that was public knowledge.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2019, 08:05:41 pm »
OK, now tell me when that has ever stopped such things @EasyAce.
@Bigun
Of course it doesn't. OK, now tell me whether that makes such things right.

[Acts of cheating are] not the result of impulse, borne of frustration or anger or zeal as violence is, but are rather acts of a cool, deliberate, premeditated kind. Unlike acts of impulse or violence, intended at the moment to vent frustration or abuse another, acts of cheating are intended to alter the very conditions of play to favour one person. [Or team.] They are secretive, covert acts that strike at and seek to undermine the basic foundation of any contest declaring the winner---that all participants play under identical rules and conditions. Acts of cheating destroy that necessary foundation and thus strike at the essence of a contest. They destroy faith in the games' integrity and fairness; if participants and spectators alike cannot assume integrity and fairness and proceed from there, the contest cannot in its essence exist . . . Cheating is contrary to the whole purpose of playing to determine a winner fairly and cannot be simply contained; if the game is to flourish and engage public confidence, cheating must be clearly condemned with an eye to expunging it.

---A. Bartlett Giamatti, when he was president of the National League, in 1987.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline xyno

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2019, 08:08:42 pm »
Making the leap to another sport here.  Football teams have always spied on opponent's practices when possible.  Most all teams have moved their practices to a controlled environment or banned the public for this reason.  Yet, Bill Belichick surrogates basically got caught filming another team's practice.  The "GOAT" coach was fined $500,000. 

The game(s) needs to preserve its integrity.  Dishonestly using technology to impact the game towards the favor of one team or player over another will ultimately ruin the game's integrity, the game's spirit, and the game itself. 

You can't be illegally deflating footballs to gain an advantage.

You can't gamble on games you are managing.

It will ruin the game.  And sport itself.

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2019, 08:09:29 pm »
@Bigun
Of course it doesn't. OK, now tell me whether that makes such things right.

No, it doesn't but it's big business now and playing for the love of the game has long since gone by the wayside.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2019, 08:11:22 pm »
Making the leap to another sport here.  Football teams have always spied on opponent's practices when possible.  Most all teams have moved their practices to a controlled environment or banned the public for this reason.  Yet, Bill Belichick surrogates basically got caught filming another team's practice.  The "GOAT" coach was fined $500,000. 

The game(s) needs to preserve its integrity.  Dishonestly using technology to impact the game towards the favor of one team or player over another will ultimately ruin the game's integrity, the game's spirit, and the game itself. 

You can't be illegally deflating footballs to gain an advantage.

You can't gamble on games you are managing.

It will ruin the game.  And sport itself.

You cannot re-ruin that which is already ruined @xyno.  Just sayin.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline xyno

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2019, 08:14:37 pm »
You cannot re-ruin that which is already ruined @xyno.  Just sayin.

I love the game I knew as a boy.  Not today's.  Not even a little.  There are parallels to society, aren't there?  I can cite many.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2019, 08:14:58 pm »
@EasyAce

We heard rumblings.
We knew the players didn't like the idea, Verlander spoke out, he wasn't alone, and that was public knowledge.
@GrouchoTex
I think that until The MVP Machine was published earlier this year the extent to which the Osuna trade was actually despised around the Astros' front office wasn't really well known.

Justin Verlander wasn't alone but he was probably the single most outspoken Astro about domestic violence. A few months before the Osuna deal, an Astro farmhand named Danry Vasquez was released by the 'Stros when a video of him attacking his girl friend on a staircase surfaced. When it did, Verlander tweeted, "[Eff] you man. I hope the rest of your life without baseball is horrible.  You deserve all that is coming your way!"

Another Astro pitcher, Lance McCullers, Jr., tweeted similarly: "The issue here is no one cared as much until a video was leaked & now everyone is outraged!? This is the reality of domestic violence. It’s always brutal, always sickening. We must fight for the victims, video or not. He should be in jail. If you need help, find it. People care."


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2019, 08:16:16 pm »
I love the game I knew as a boy.  Not today's.  Not even a little.  There are parallels to society, aren't there?  I can cite many.

Yeah! Me to! and yes the parallels are many.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2019, 08:30:34 pm »
I love the game I knew as a boy.  Not today's.  Not even a little.  There are parallels to society, aren't there?  I can cite many.

After the strikes and the steroids, I turned a jaundiced eye towards baseball. Cal Ripken, Jr. breaking Lou Gerhig's consecutive game streak is what started to bring me back into the fold.
Then, this "Good Guys" team comes around, and I jump back into it, only the have a jaundiced eye all over again.

So what is the cure for a jaundiced eye?

Offline xyno

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2019, 08:34:34 pm »

So what is the cure for a jaundiced eye?


The light of day.

I understand your point, though.  My response was more than a little facetious. 


Offline xyno

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Re: Smile! You're on Candid Camera
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2019, 02:49:00 pm »
With everyone now delving into the video record, evidence is really mounting.  It is always easy after the fact, but wow.  Countless smart baseball observers, fans, players never made a serious connection.  No whistleblowers.  Wow.