Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria

[TomSea]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11198326/Who-are-the-Kurds-A-users-guide-to-Kurdish-politics.html

This article from the Daily Telegraph explains pretty well how not all of these Kurds are PKK/YPG affiliated, I have heard that the largest Kurd party is not aligned with the more extremist sect that may be the ones who want to carve out a Kurdistan just like all Latinos here, by far, do not care for parts of the USA to be returned to Mexico.

Tom, we're not going to stay in Syria as a private police force for the Kurds.  The only other way to make the Kurds, and apparently Lindsey Graham, happy is for the United States to help the Kurds form their own independent state.  And we're not going to do this either. 

Although you keep overlooking it, the "why" we're not going to provide this help to the Kurds is vital to understanding and accepting that our military assistance has reasonable, appropriate and necessary limitations:

So, your assertion is built on a problematic assumption that this is the aim of all Kurds, they are not all fighting for this.

@Right_in_Virginia

[Right_in_Virginia]

We're also not going to remain in Syria to prevent ISIS from reappearing.  It's now up to the region to take care of this.  We've done all we can and all we will do.

Besides, my money is on the square that says the third iteration of ISIS is already underway.  Turkey, Syria, SA and Jordan should be prepared to knock it out early.

And Graham should know better.

[TomSea]

We're also not going to remain in Syria to prevent ISIS from reappearing.  It's now up to the region to take care of this.  We've done all we can and all we will do.

Besides, my money is on the square that says the third iteration of ISIS is already underway.  Turkey, Syria, SA and Jordan should be prepared to knock it out early.

And Graham should know better.

And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.

Obama should have known better, Trump should have known better.

You break it, you buy it.

Great, pushing our allies who helped defeat a great evil in ISIS into the hands of someone who killed Americans.

Now, an argument that might wash is that the Kurds would not come to an agreement on the safe-zone, that might be the crux of the natter, not these other theories.

[TomSea]

This is actually a truth, some have said that the Kurds in Syria are not those in Turkey, I've given Turkey the benefit of the doubt that they could cross over the border but I'm not sure if this is mostly a truth `100%. One would have to figure that some might be there.

[mystery-ak]

Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants

Monday, 14 October 2019 10:54 AM



Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar said on Monday Syrian Kurdish YPG fighters had emptied a jail holding Islamic State prisoners in a part of Syria where Ankara is mounting an offensive, and that the prisoners there had been abducted.

Turkey launched a cross-border operation against the YPG militia in northeastern Syria last week, after U.S. President Donald Trump decided to withdraw forces from two posts in the area in a move that drew strong international criticism.

The Turkish assault has prompted alarm that it could allow Islamic State (ISIS) militants to escape Kurdish-run prisons in northern Syria and regroup. Ankara has dismissed those concerns.

Turkey's stated objective is to clear its southern frontier region of the YPG, which it views as a terrorist organization, and form a "safe zone" 30 km (20 miles) into Syrian territory where it wants to settle millions of Syrian refugees. Ankara also pledged to take responsibility for ISIS militants within the "safe zone," but said it would not be accountable for others.

Speaking to reporters in Ankara on Monday, Akar said the YPG had emptied the only Islamic State prison that Turkish forces had so far reached in the envisaged "safe zone" area, and that the inmates had already been removed.

more
https://www.newsmax.com/headline/syria-kurds-prison-islamic-state/2019/10/14/id/936983/

[Right_in_Virginia]

And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.

ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.

[jpsb]

Ah, here you go, @Right_in_Virginia.  Here are your Trump promises.  This is what he said in January:


And later that same month:

Erdogan took Trump to the cleaners

[TomSea]

ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.

The statement was not "ISIS is defeated", it's whether ISIS is 100% defeated, good, we agree that that is a false statement.

Deflection.

Missioned Accomplished - George Bush, Barak Obama, Donald Trump

[DCPatriot]

ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.

And let's not forget the vegeanceful Baathists who went postal on supporters of the USA after the fall of Saddam.

[kidd]

There was never any kind of declaration of war from Congress or anything resembling invocation of the War Powers Act by Trump.

As such, there was never any kind of military goal to be achieved.

Congress has essentially let Trump have his own private military force. The military can come and go as Trump pleases, because Congress lets him.

If Lindsey Graham want the US Military to protect the Kurds, then he has the power to initiate a declaration of war that Trump would have to comply with, if passed.

[TomSea]

This woman who was killed might not even have been born in Turkey, anyway, she belonged to the Syrian Future Party and she was a Syrian politician:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hevrin_Khalaf

So, not all Kurds might be envisioning this greater Kurdistan idea. 

[TomSea]

There was never any kind of declaration of war from Congress or anything resembling invocation of the War Powers Act by Trump.

As such, there was never any kind of military goal to be achieved.

Congress has essentially let Trump have his own private military force. The military can come and go as Trump pleases, because Congress lets him.

If Lindsey Graham want the US Military to protect the Kurds, then he has the power to initiate a declaration of war that Trump would have to comply with, if passed.

SDF was formed in 2015, Obama was president.

ISIS rose to power because of Obama's mismanagement of the Iraq war, things were pacified, "Mission Accomplished".  That proved hollow.

US policy should not be to go into places, mess things up and then leave.

[Right_in_Virginia]

The statement was not "ISIS is defeated", it's whether ISIS is 100% defeated, good, we agree that that is a false statement.

Don't start splitting hairs, Tom.  ISIS is defeated, even as some cockroaches always survive.  If you expect the US to stay in Syria with a can of Raid .... you're losing it.   

[jpsb]

Tom, we're not going to stay in Syria as a private police force for the Kurds.  The only other way to make the Kurds, and apparently Lindsey Graham, happy is for the United States to help the Kurds form their own independent state.  And we're not going to do this either. 

Although you keep overlooking it, the "why" we're not going to provide this help to the Kurds is vital to understanding and accepting that our military assistance has reasonable, appropriate and necessary limitations:

@Right_in_Virginia

There is a difference between keeping the peace and endless wars. Trump has no problem renting US armed forces to Saudi Arabia. US forces in Syria were preventing Turkey from attacking our ally the Kurds. Do tell
when is Trump going to pull our troops out of S. Korea, Germany, Japan or any of the hundred other place they
are stationed at? Erdogan took Trump to the cleaners and EVERYONE but you knows it. No one is ever going
to trust the USA or Trump ever again.

[TomSea]

What I'm hearing this morning is maybe the Kurds, whomever made up the negotiators, just might have been stubborn about the "Safe Zone", "Buffer Zone",

Turkey wanted 30 Kms in, Kurds, only 10 Kms, Kurds couldn't wouldn't bend on the negotiations.

https://ahvalnews.com/safe-zone/turkey-not-satisfied-us-proposal-safe-zone-northern-syria 

This seems to be a part of it at least, whatever the specifics.

On the other hand, what the Turks are doing to the Kurds in Turkey, well, you know, I don't know.

The Kurds have their own party over there and some are in congress but other reading and things I heard might suggest some minimal rights in all of this, not being able to teach their language, something like that. What some call apartheid, I don't know the situation.

And Brett McGurk, he's the one who apparently helped negotiate the SDF agreement where the PKK got in there.

[TomSea]

Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
Turkish officials today released a footage from a prison in Tal Abyad, they claim SDF released all ISIS suspects because they didn’t see any forensic evidence suggesting there was a breakout

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1183756694280646656

Lara Seligman
@laraseligman
Senior U.S. administration official says there's no evidence the Kurds released ISIS prisoners.

"That has enraged our forces in Syria," the official says. "Incredibly reckless and dishonest thing to say."

SDC confirms: "We didn't release any prisoners and will never do that."

https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status/1183755889771188224

So, we do not know the truth. It is an allegation.

[TomSea]

Anyway, if Trump's mindset was to let the military do their job as in fighting ISIS or using drones in  Yemen or what ever, why is Trump making the decision about withdrawing these troops then? It's obvious, in these instances, the military does not care for this.

Yes, one could say, it is in the interest of the military to stay in these countries or speak of the military industrial complex, I'd gather.

[jpsb]

US policy should not be to go into places, mess things up and then leave.

 

[kidd]

SDF was formed in 2015, Obama was president.

ISIS rose to power because of Obama's mismanagement of the Iraq war, things were pacified, "Mission Accomplished".  That proved hollow.

US policy should not be to go into places, mess things up and then leave.

No disagreement.

But there should have been some goal established by a formal declaration that can be traced back to Constitutional authority.
Instead, we're left with a lot of actions based on what "feels right". We went into Syria because it felt right. Now we are leaving because Trump feels its right.
And Lindsey Graham, who has the power to initiate formal military action, has instead ran to the press to whine.

[jpsb]

Turkey is a known ally of ISIS, if anyone released ISIS figthers it's Turkey. Don't believe a damn thing either
Erdogan or Trump says about northern Syria or the Kurds. I do believe the Kurds allowed ISIS followers (women
and children) to leave a camp Turkey was bombarding.

[TomSea]

No disagreement.

But there should have been some goal established by a formal declaration that can be traced back to Constitutional authority.
Instead, we're left with a lot of actions based on what "feels right". We went into Syria because it felt right. Now we are leaving because Trump feels its right.
And Lindsey Graham, who has the power to initiate formal military action, has instead ran to the press to whine.

I'd disagree with our going into Syria because it felt right, we went in because ISIS was slaughtering people including Christians, Assad was too busy fighting regular rebels, from my understanding and this may be a bit of dated information, Russia and Assad did not fight ISIS that much. In fact, at times, they may have been opportune with them to fight the rebels.  ISIS rose at least, in part,  because Obama decided to withdraw practically all US troops out of Iraq in 2011. ISIS spread their Caliphate in both Iraq and Syria.

Bush warned against sectarianism, that is what we got.

[TomSea]

Now, this may not be significant and we may be saying we are withdrawing troops out of Syria but the fact remains, we will maintain one installation there, mainly to watch the Iranians, it has been said in the past:

"Only a small garrison of U.S. troops will remain at al-Tanf near Syria's border with Iraq and Jordan."
https://www.nhpr.org/post/endangered-turkish-offensive-us-troops-prepare-evacuate-syria

Also, except for this place, we may be moving towards a full withdrawal but so far, I thought, it's basically been moving troops around in Syria, so this doesn't appear to be this "Bring Them Home" motif, we have heard about.  Per the story, we may be now, withdrawing, it is a fluid situation.

[XenaLee]

Now, this may not be significant and we may be saying we are withdrawing troops out of Syria but the fact remains, we will maintain one installation there, mainly to watch the Iranians, it has been said in the past:

"Only a small garrison of U.S. troops will remain at al-Tanf near Syria's border with Iraq and Jordan."
https://www.nhpr.org/post/endangered-turkish-offensive-us-troops-prepare-evacuate-syria

Also, except for this place, we may be moving towards a full withdrawal but so far, I thought, it's basically been moving troops around in Syria, so this doesn't appear to be this "Bring Them Home" motif, we have heard about.  Per the story, we may be now, withdrawing, it is a fluid situation.

No!!!  You don't say.

You mean.... the kneejerk propagandists were wrong?   

I'm shocked, I tell ya!    (I know, I know, done to death, but sue me)

[Right_in_Virginia]

  @Right_in_Virginia
There is a difference between keeping the peace and endless wars. Trump has no problem renting US armed forces to Saudi Arabia. US forces in Syria were preventing Turkey from attacking our ally the Kurds. Do tell.

Oh, dear Mother of God, it's like talking to a wall.  Read the article, not just the headline, and educate yourself on what our "alliance" with the Kurds was.

when is Trump going to pull our troops out of S. Korea, Germany, Japan or any of the hundred other place they are stationed at?

Please stop mixing kumquats and sourdough bread.  There's more than enough drama and confusion in the world.

Erdogan took Trump to the cleaners and EVERYONE but you knows it.

The Kurds have now given up the fight against Syria for regional independence and will fight alongside their nation's military to push back the Turks.  The Kurds are now safer than before, and the Syrian government has one more militant group off its back.  The world is one step closer to an end to this long civil war.

Turkey will be stopped by Syria/Russia/Kurds and, if necessary, US sanctions.  Erdogan has stepped in one huge mess that will not end well for him.  It shouldn't surprise us if/when the Turks replace him --- making the whole world happy.   Seems to me if this should come to pass    Erdogan will have been played as a useful idiot.

No one is ever going to trust the USA or Trump ever again.

Again with the drama       Most everyone, especially in the Middle East understands what's happening here ---Syria is being returned to Syria.   (And another Obama legacy notch is turning to dust.)

[TomSea]

SDF to be 'abolished' under Kurdish-Syria deal: reports
The New Arab

The deal between the Kurdish authority and Bashar al-Assad's regime would allegedly give the Kurds full autonomy and safeguard their rights under a new Syrian constitution, according to the reports.

In return, the Kurdish and Arab fighters would coordinate with the regime to confront Turkey who have launched an offensive with Syrian rebel fighters into SDF territories.

"Within one month Kurdish leadership with start to take up some official roles within the current Syrian government to ease the transition period of N. #Syria until an new constitution/government is formed in the future," Syria analyst Danny Makki tweeted on Monday.

Read more at: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/10/14/sdf-to-be-abolished-under-kurdish-syria-deal-reports

See, apparently, there is already a sort of Kurd homeland in Syria, it's called "ROJAVA" (obviously, an old map as ISIS has been rolled back but ROJAVA is in the area shown, see wkiipedia article link below).



So, if this report is true, it's good news... too bad, we've probably got them mad at us! ALSO, I hope and somewhat assume, the Christians will be treated well in this. They kind of get along with the Kurds but there are the odd stories of friction between them.

Rojava flag, see, none of that Communist stuff on this, colors are like Lithuania's at that I believe.



Rojava:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava

Even reporter Jenan Moussa seems to be mentioning this:

Jenan Moussa
@jenanmoussa
Farewell Rojava...
(with video)
https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183690152826290177Jenan Moussa

So, hopefully, this might be a positive, you don't know. We are almost into 2020, maybe that area can finally get up to date, actually, they were saying this area was fairly peaceful because of the SDF.

Could the Russians have influenced this some? I think maybe. Maybe and apparently, there are some lines of communication between the USA and Russia over there.  Looks a bit positive. Sad for any civilians who died these past several days.