Author Topic: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?  (Read 775 times)

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Offline Elderberry

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Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« on: September 02, 2019, 03:06:49 pm »
American Thinker by Ewa Thompson  9/1/2019

In modern English, nationalism has become a dirty word.  It is lumped together with racism, xenophobia, chauvinism, and intolerance.  To accuse someone of harboring nationalistic views is a formula for exclusion.  Few scholars can survive carrying such charges in their professional luggage.  Accusations of nationalism are directed at politicians as well, with predictable results.  In academia and the press, attempts to discredit and condemn nationalism are numerous.  A recent example is "An Open Letter Against the New Nationalism" published August 19, 2019 in the Commonweal magazine.

It has to be emphasized that aggressiveness toward neighbors and attempts to destroy them for the sake of one's own Lebensraum are not nationalism.  They are a pathology prompted by greed and arrogance.  One of the shortcomings of the aforementioned Letter is unjustified attribution of aggressiveness to what I call defensive nationalism, bent on preservation of identity and history.

Nationalism was not created by the French Revolution, as some scholars maintain, nor was it a product of literacy, as Marxist scholar Benedict Anderson wanted.  It has many parents.  It involves defense and protection of group identity that took generations to develop.  It contributes to the individual's personhood.

Liberal democracy was supposed to dissolve nationalism and bring an end to history, but even within Professor Fukuyama's lifetime, it has failed to do so.  History rushed past his predictions and doled out to humanity new wars and new ways of fighting wars.  It is true that Western democracies have avoided war on their territory, but they have participated in numerous proxy wars.  In 2019, the world is as unlikely to erupt into eternal peace as ever.  Wars are being fought, and nothing indicates that they won't be fought in the future, even though liberal democracy seems strongly embedded in first-world countries.

More: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/09/can_democracy_survive_without_nationalism.html

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2019, 05:12:49 pm »
I'm more concerned with, "Can a Republic survive?"
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Offline Absalom

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2019, 07:42:21 pm »
Suggest Mankind would be much better off w/far fewer isms!!!

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2019, 08:29:13 pm »
I don't see how.  Democracy is an inherently unstable system.  Nationalism might extend its time, but it will eventually fall.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2019, 12:45:37 am »
The question:
"Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?"

"Democracy"?
History says no.

But... we are a "Republic"?
And in that case, probably no.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2019, 12:54:44 am »
We are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

Quote
John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2019, 01:18:27 am »
We are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

Except that we have a constitution which overrides the will of the people unless the constitution is amended.  This alone removes it from the democracy arena.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 01:26:37 am »
A representative democracy is an indirect democracy where sovereignty is held by the people's representatives.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2019, 01:30:56 am »
I'm more concerned with, "Can a Republic survive?"

I think this is rather splitting hairs --- for the purposes of this essay.  The author is making a case that something greater than our political system binds us @Cyber Liberty

FTA:

Quote
What is the foundation of our defense against such hostile plans?  I contend that it is the sense of nationhood, otherwise called nationalism.  American soldiers in Afghanistan fight not to preserve liberal democracy.  They fight out of loyalty to their nation and their military unit.  When it comes to collective survival, it is patriotism and not the right to vote that is being appealed to.  As an anonymous tweeter recently stated, "loving America is what holds us together and what many have fought and died for."  Yes, America gives us freedom of speech and the right to vote, but so do many other countries.  It is American nationhood, its long story in history, and its innumerable unique characteristics that are the object of love, not its liberal democratic format.

[...]

When democracies were in direct danger in WW2, no appeal was made to their political systems.  Rather, the concept of nationhood was invoked.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2019, 01:33:44 am »
A representative democracy is an indirect democracy where sovereignty is held by the people's representatives.

But, that's not the case here.  I must be missing what you are saying.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2019, 01:34:11 am »
I think this is rather splitting hairs --- for the purposes of this essay.  The author is making a case that something greater than our political system binds us @Cyber Liberty

FTA:

You're right, I was splitting.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2019, 01:36:07 am »
You're right, I was splitting.

The difference between a democracy and a republic is vital.  It's just that this essay transcended both.   happy77



« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 01:37:04 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2019, 01:43:02 am »
You're right, I was splitting.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a concerted effort on part of the left to push the term "democracy" into the public's mind as our form of government.  We can let them have their way, or push back.  Part of pushing back is reminding ourselves not to get caught up in their word games.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2019, 01:51:06 am »
I don't give a rat's A$$ about what democracies can or cannot do!  Thank God the USA is not, never has been, and I pray, never will be one. 

I defy anyone to find a single use of the word "Democracy" in any of our founding documents.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2019, 02:11:02 am »
A representative democracy is an indirect democracy where sovereignty is held by the people's representatives.

"Liberty and security in government depend not on the limits, which the rulers may please to assign to the exercise of their own powers, but on the boundaries, within which their powers are circumscribed by the constitution. With us, the powers of magistrates, call them by whatever name you please, are the grants of the people . . . The supreme power is in them, and in them, even when a constitution is formed, and government is in operation, the supreme power still remains. A portion of their authority they, indeed, delegate; but they delegate that portion in whatever manner, in whatever measure, for whatever time, to whatever persons, and on whatever conditions they choose to fix."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice James Wilson (Lectures, 1790-1791)

@Elderberry
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2019, 02:17:28 am »
And there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a concerted effort on part of the left to push the term "democracy" into the public's mind as our form of government.  We can let them have their way, or push back.  Part of pushing back is reminding ourselves not to get caught up in their word games.

 :yowsa:  I prefer to push back!  HARD!

"Communism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."

Leon Trotsky
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2019, 03:35:19 am »
The Left and weak Republicans, have been on this "nationalism"
 narrative, with which the media have called every GOP candidate since Goldwater, a Nazi.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline EdJames

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2019, 04:07:30 am »
:yowsa:  I prefer to push back!  HARD!

"Communism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."

Leon Trotsky

 :thumbsup:

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2019, 10:51:32 am »
I don't give a rat's A$$ about what democracies can or cannot do!  Thank God the USA is not, never has been, and I pray, never will be one. 

I defy anyone to find a single use of the word "Democracy" in any of our founding documents.

You'll get no argument from me on this @Bigun   But this essay is in defense of nationalism....and the role it plays in uniting us as one people.  In essence the author is saying in times of crisis what brings us together against a common enemy is not our political system.  We do not go to war to save "Federalism".  We go to war to save a nation --- that unique entity of shared history, beliefs and hopes of which we are a member.  No soldier has put his or her life on the line to save the states' right to determine gun laws.  He or she goes to war to defend and protect his homeland.   

Throughout the essay he is raising the question:  What happens if we replace the nation state with globalism?

Offline Bigun

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2019, 01:28:53 pm »
You'll get no argument from me on this @Bigun   But this essay is in defense of nationalism....and the role it plays in uniting us as one people.  In essence the author is saying in times of crisis what brings us together against a common enemy is not our political system.  We do not go to war to save "Federalism".  We go to war to save a nation --- that unique entity of shared history, beliefs and hopes of which we are a member.  No soldier has put his or her life on the line to save the states' right to determine gun laws.  He or she goes to war to defend and protect his homeland.   

Throughout the essay he is raising the question:  What happens if we replace the nation state with globalism?

Sorry @Right_in_Virginia but you are very wrong when you say we do not go to war to save Federalism!  There was in fact a HUGE fight over that very thing and it took the lives of 800,000 Americans!  That is going to happen again if we are not VERY careful. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2019, 01:37:54 pm »
Sorry @Right_in_Virginia but you are very wrong when you say we do not go to war to save Federalism!  There was in fact a HUGE fight over that very thing and it took the lives of 800,000 Americans!  That is going to happen again if we are not VERY careful.

Not to get us off in the thicket of the war fought in the 1860's (I've already dragged the thread off topic once), but would the Founders have considered Lincoln's actions to have been "Federal" in nature? 
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2019, 01:42:00 pm »
Not to get us off in the thicket of the war fought in the 1860's (I've already dragged the thread off topic once), but would the Founders have considered Lincoln's actions to have been "Federal" in nature?

Nope!  Not a chance in hell!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2019, 07:22:18 pm »
Sorry @Right_in_Virginia but you are very wrong when you say we do not go to war to save Federalism!  There was in fact a HUGE fight over that very thing and it took the lives of 800,000 Americans!  That is going to happen again if we are not VERY careful.
 

Maybe @Bigun   My I'm more inclined to believe soldiers fight for "our way of life" and HOME. 

What military recruiter have you heard say:  "Son:  Federalism needs you"???   :laugh:


Offline dfwgator

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2019, 07:25:12 pm »
Suggest Mankind would be much better off w/far fewer isms!!!

Ferris agrees...


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Offline dfwgator

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Re: Can Democracy Survive without Nationalism?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2019, 07:27:32 pm »
I don't see how.  Democracy is an inherently unstable system.  Nationalism might extend its time, but it will eventually fall.

Multi-Culturalism is certain to fail.   Nationalism is having a population with common beliefs and culture,  it's not a race thing.