Author Topic: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy  (Read 843 times)

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Offline goatprairie

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2019, 07:19:54 pm »
The way I remember it was the usually just shot the gun out of the bad-guy's hand,without even making it bleed.

I honestly don't remember if Dillion ever killed anyone or not,and it really doesn't matter because your point is on target,even if the focus is off a little.

"The Message being sent" was YOU DO NOT KILL ANYONE UNLESS YOU HAVE NO CHOICE" .

The whole "base" of the western tv shows was that you never get violent unless you are attacked,and then you defeat the attacker using the least amount of force to become "A HERO!"

What little boy back then didn't want to grow up to become a hero?

With todays videos and movies,the "hero" is almost as likely to be a villain as a former Boy Scout.  There just doesn't seem to be many lines separating the good from the evil.

And as movies got more realistic,even the genuine heroes of a movie or tv show did plenty of killing and maiming.

You can watch Braveheart or any other Mel Gibson movie to find an example of this,and Mel generally didn't seem to go for the gore compared to others. The thing is you and I were watching these movies through the eyes of adults who know something of the historical background,and kids are just watching them for excitement.
Yes, the "shooting the gun out of the bad guy's hand" was  a staple of many westerns.
In fact, I was mightily surprised to read where The Lone Ranger never killed anybody in the numerous tv westerns they filmed. He just shot the gun out of their hands. He always defeated the bad guy in a fist fight at the end.  Watching these shows when I was older, I was always puzzled why he just didn't pull out his gun and either shoot the bad guy or hold his gun on them when they were disarmed. He would actually run over to the bad guy with his pistols in his holsters and knock the bad guy out.
However, Marshall Dillon definitely did in hundreds of bad guys. I can never remember him shooting the gun out of a bad guy's hand. He usually just killed them or tried to kill them.  Ditto for Lucas McCain in "The Rifleman" and many other westerns.

Bill Cipher

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2019, 07:24:31 pm »
Yes, the "shooting the gun out of the bad guy's hand" was  a staple of many westerns.
In fact, I was mightily surprised to read where The Lone Ranger never killed anybody in the numerous tv westerns they filmed. He just shot the gun out of their hands. He always defeated the bad guy in a fist fight at the end.  Watching these shows when I was older, I was always puzzled why he just didn't pull out his gun and either shoot the bad guy or hold his gun on them when they were disarmed. He would actually run over to the bad guy with his pistols in his holsters and knock the bad guy out.
However, Marshall Dillon definitely did in hundreds of bad guys. I can never remember him shooting the gun out of a bad guy's hand. He usually just killed them or tried to kill them.  Ditto for Lucas McCain in "The Rifleman" and many other westerns.


In most of the westerns, the good guy usually did end up having to shoot the bad guy - most of them didn’t try the shoot-the-gun-out-of-the-hand routine - but they didn’t shoot unprovoked, and the provocation was almost always that the bad guys were already shooting at them, or had guns drawn and were aiming to shoot, and the good guys never went after the bad guys to kill them for revenge or vengeance.  The good guy who crossed that line usually suffered for it. 

Offline goatprairie

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2019, 07:26:27 pm »
I was also very surprised when I was older  to hear some expert on the west when asked the question debunk "the shooting the gun out of the bad guy's hand" cliche.
He said the pistols of that day weren't very accurate, and it would have been near impossible as well as stupid to try to shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand.
Of course the western expert's words made sense. If someone was trying to shoot you, why wouldn't try to shoot the gun out of their hands.  You'd aim for center mass.  The good guys in the old west shot to kill and not to destroy a shooting iron.

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2019, 07:29:13 pm »
I was also very surprised when I was older  to hear some expert on the west when asked the question debunk "the shooting the gun out of the bad guy's hand" cliche.
He said the pistols of that day weren't very accurate, and it would have been near impossible as well as stupid to try to shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand.
Of course the western expert's words made sense. If someone was trying to shoot you, why wouldn't try to shoot the gun out of their hands.  You'd aim for center mass.  The good guys in the old west shot to kill and not to destroy a shooting iron.

Makes sense.  Even today, I think you’d have to be a damned good marksman to be able to reliably shoot guns out of people’s hands with a pistol. 

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2019, 08:33:51 pm »
@truth_seeker go read this one and tell me what you think?  http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,370918.msg2025268.html#msg2025268

@Sanguine

Honestly I am kind of numb from this.

I expect the media will arrange for "experts" to characterize them as victims of bullying, or other nonsense.

They are the product of bad parenting, bad educations, bad government, bad "friends," no military, no consequences, etc.

Complete lack of remorse, or mention of right and wrong.

I favor laws to make it more likely to become confined for "mental illness."


Drug addicted "homeless underfoot. Mental misfits gunning down citizens.

Of course that means judges caould not override legislation.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2019, 08:43:59 pm »
@Sanguine

Honestly I am kind of numb from this.

I expect the media will arrange for "experts" to characterize them as victims of bullying, or other nonsense.

They are the product of bad parenting, bad educations, bad government, bad "friends," no military, no consequences, etc.

Complete lack of remorse, or mention of right and wrong.

I favor laws to make it more likely to become confined for "mental illness."


Drug addicted "homeless underfoot. Mental misfits gunning down citizens.

Of course that means judges caould not override legislation.

I hear you.  It is mind-numbing.

Offline Absalom

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2019, 08:52:12 pm »
@truth_seeker
This is a problem with multiple-roots,and none of them involve guns.
What the roots are is a result of the culture change in America in the last 30 or so years. Below is a list of what *I* see as the root problems,not necessarily in importance.
1: No more "Leave it to Beave" typical homelife,where the dad works,the mom stays home to mind the children,and the children are raised to know and accept they have  responsibilities. The typical parent of today barely even knows their children. They both go off to work each morning pretty much leaving the kids to manage their own lives until 5 PM or so. What eventually happens is you get a group of strangers living together than don't really have much in common. The kids can relate to each other,but their parents are little more than adults that happen to share living space with them.
2:Technological advances. Oftentimes today children have "I-POD Babysitters",and the sad,sad truth is the video games and smart phones are probably the best babysitters ever if you seek a babysitter that keeps your kid mostly quiet and totally distracted. There damn sure ain't any actual human contact/interaction happening there though,so a LOT more kids grow up with the label "troubled loner" now than ever before. Making this MUCH worse is the abundance and popularity of the violent "shoot 'em up!" games. These kids "kill" hundreds of people daily,sometimes with very real images. They are pretty much immune to the IDEA of violent deaths by the time they are 10. Doesn't mean a thing to them because children have a hard time separating reality from fiction when the fiction they see is so life-like.
3: The inclination of what amounts to "part-time parents" to overlook problems when they first start,and the reluctance they have to do or say anything because they feel a little guilty about neglecting them. NOT guilty enough to lower their standard of living to the point one of them has to drive a used car and they can no longer live in a neighborhood they can't afford,mind you. Most of this could be avoided if mom or dad,it doesn't matter which,was there in the morning to make their breakfast and see them off to school,and there again in the afternoon,where they are EXPECTED to return immediately after school to discuss today's issues,if any, with a parent,and to ASK PERMISSION to go to a friends house,etc,etc,etc. Kids like this know that things are expected of them,and that gives them a sense of belonging.
I am sure there are others you could mention,but this ain't my book to write,so please feel free to add any  you think of.
--------------------------------
You thoughtful comments are certainly worthy.
Yet suggest you avoid ZERO, a relentless windbag whose, only interest
is argumentative yip-yap but never pause, reflection and counter-point.
As a result, all postings terminate in a predictable urinary contest.
-----------
Instead a reflection for you on the Gun Issue.
Our 2nd Amendment of 1791, protected the right to keep and bear arms,
a statutory right that is virtually non-existent in the rest of the world.
Then in 1871, the NRA was formed and self-labeled as a civil rights
organization protecting the 2nd Amendment, raising a serious question.
During the preceding 80 years, there was no record in our history of
any political pressure to abrogate or repeal the right to bear arms.
As such, what was the NRA protecting???
While giving Capitalism its fair due you have been one who
sees crony capitalism for what it is. So let me pose a question.
Is the NRA the protector of the 2nd Amendment or rather are they the
DC Lobbyists for our Firearms Industry or is this just a matter of semantics?
Dayton and El Paso are only the latest in an increasing crescendo of gun
violence engulfing our urban centers.
As a result, it is increasingly likely that serious restrictions are coming.
This question is now being asked, yet unfortunately its our political
assholery and cowards who will decide the answer!!!


 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 08:53:11 pm by Absalom »

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2019, 10:52:00 pm »
goat wrote:
"The Wild Bunch" (1969) I believe was the first movie that supposedly shocked a lot of people with the  amounts of blood and gore never  before seen in such quantities and much of it done in slow motion. Previous westerns had shown a little blood and gore. Many older westerns and cop shows didn't show any.  Even army shows didn't show much blood."

I think that "Bonnie & Clyde" (1967) had a lot to do with "changing the standards" of what was portrayed on the screen, as well.

Offline mountaineer

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2019, 10:57:53 pm »
Quote
(((AG)))  @AG_Conservative
In other words, we had one mass shooter ok the far-right (though he also backed climate alarmism and single-payer) in El Paso and one on the far-left in Daytona.

Yet the media has declared that we only need to be concerned about rhetoric from one side. You see the issue?
6:44 PM · Aug 4, 2019
The Dayton shooter: not white supremacist. None of the violence in Chicago, Baltimore, St. Louis, L.A., various other urban environments, etc., was perpetrated by white supremacists.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2019, 11:15:28 pm »
This isn't about white supremacy, in fact it's the exact opposite.

What we know about human nature tells us that you if you treat young men like evil children, punish rather than redirect natural impulses, and tell them repeatedly that they are bad, wrong and need to become something that is contrary to who they actually are, you will create problems.  Add to that, you sublimate those natural characteristics with gory games and violent movies that instead tend to increase and misdirect those violent impulses, they also remove young males from the normal socialization that should be occurring as they mature. 

Not that these two are good examples of men, but they are men, just warped.  Men with no purpose, focus, or foreseeable future.  They've had their birthright taken away from them by a society that rejects anything powerful and masculine.  Not surprisingly they lash out in antisocial ways.

And, then there's the "white men" thing.  Not only are they born "wrong", they are born as exploiters and abusers of all "good" humankind.

Marriage, the great socializer of men in the past, becomes a masochistic chore rather than something to look forward to when you are seen as a burden and exploiter.  They've not been socialized and what they see in movies and video games is aberrant sex and male-female relations.  So, the greatest instinctual driver of human males becomes impossible and undesirable.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 12:14:04 am by Sanguine »

Offline sneakypete

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2019, 12:18:43 am »
Laugh all you want to, boy, that merely demonstrates your lack of argument.  You may have been one of the psychological defectives as a child, but most of us weren’t and aren’t.

@Bill Cipher

"Dungeons and Dragons"!

Yeah,you really have a grip on how society has changed since the 40's!

Not to mention violence amongst meterosexual youts.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2019, 12:22:52 am »
The main blame should be placed on Hollywood, and it’s constant pitch that violence is the only legitimate way to “solve” problems.  The Punisher, Denzel Washington’s Equalizer movies, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

Advertising works.  And advertising violence in the soft-porn way that Hollywood has been doing for decades is clearly paying dividends now.
I agree. It is the mother's milk of budding psychopaths, desensitized to violence. I watched John Wyck, and couldn't even keep a Joe Bob Briggs' style body count through the first half of the movie.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2019, 12:26:52 am »
This isn't about white supremacy, in fact it's the exact opposite.

What we know about human nature tells us that you if you treat young men like evil children, punish rather than redirect natural impulses, and tell them repeatedly that they are bad, wrong and need to become something that is contrary to who they actually are, you will create problems.  Add to that, you sublimate those natural characteristics with gory games and violent movies that instead tend to increase and misdirect those violent impulses, they also remove young males from the normal socialization that should be occurring as they mature. 

Not that these two are good examples of men, but they are men, just warped.  Men with no purpose, focus, or foreseeable future.  They've had their birthright taken away from them by a society that rejects anything powerful and masculine.  Not surprisingly they lash out in antisocial ways.

And, then there's the "white men" thing.  Not only are they born "wrong", they are born as exploiters and abusers of all "good" humankind.

Marriage, the great socializer of men in the past, becomes a masochistic chore rather than something to look forward to when you are seen as a burden and exploiter.  They've not been socialized and what they see in movies and video games is aberrant sex and male-female relations.  So, the greatest instinctual driver of human males becomes impossible and undesirable.
Yep. Add in easy divorce, and mentoring is a crap shoot. Only the lucky get it, only the very lucky from a decent source.

When people are brazenly hated for being Male, white, and heterosexual, from school and media, it's going to have an effect on those who can't shake off the nonsense. Tough to do without guidance from people who 'get it'.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline goatprairie

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Re: The left's big blame game after El Paso: Guns, Trump, white supremacy
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2019, 01:49:38 am »
goat wrote:
"The Wild Bunch" (1969) I believe was the first movie that supposedly shocked a lot of people with the  amounts of blood and gore never  before seen in such quantities and much of it done in slow motion. Previous westerns had shown a little blood and gore. Many older westerns and cop shows didn't show any.  Even army shows didn't show much blood."

I think that "Bonnie & Clyde" (1967) had a lot to do with "changing the standards" of what was portrayed on the screen, as well.
That was another one. B and C was another "new" type of movie. Directors like Arthur Penn did things different than old style directors. Of course Warren Beatty had a lot of influence on the flick as well. The theme of vicious outlaws portrayed as thirties Robin Hoods irritated a lot of people. They were probably right. B and C were not very nice.
I liked it when it came out, but it doesn't look as good to me on repeated viewings.