Author Topic: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute  (Read 5088 times)

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Bill Cipher

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2019, 12:25:17 pm »
In a word, "YES"!

IMO, the Supreme Court has made it's vote 5-4.   End of discussion.

Makes it easy now to add to the dollar limits allocated.

Answer the question.  Is Trump a dictator, not subject to review, or not?


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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2019, 12:28:47 pm »
Answer the question.  Is Trump a dictator, not subject to review, or not?

Some answer to the question:  "Are you Oceander"?    :laugh:

If he was a 'Dictator', he would have been installing fence on the border BEFORE the SCOTUS ruled.     :shrug:
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2019, 01:07:24 pm »
If you’re going to jump into the middle of a discussion, then answer the question asked.  Can Trump do anything he wants, utterly free of review by any court ever, if he simply says that what he does is to “protect” the country. 

It’s a simple yes/no answer.

@Bill Cipher

The answer is Yes he can so long as what he does is within the confines of the powers granted him in the Constitution.  Protecting us from invasion is well within those powers.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Bill Cipher

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2019, 01:13:37 pm »
@Bill Cipher

The answer is Yes he can so long as what he does is within the confines of the powers granted him in the Constitution.  Protecting us from invasion is well within those powers.

So your answer is no, Trump cannot act like a dictator, and he is subject to review by the courts. 

Which is directly contrary to the position of the person I actually responded to, who seems to think that Trump is above all review of he’s “protecting” the country. 

Maybe if you had read the post I was responding to, instead of assuming you know what I mean just because you hate me, you wouldn’t have made such a fool of yourself.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2019, 01:15:49 pm »
So your answer is no, Trump cannot act like a dictator, and he is subject to review by the courts. 

Which is directly contrary to the position of the person I actually responded to, who seems to think that Trump is above all review of he’s “protecting” the country. 

Maybe if you had read the post I was responding to, instead of assuming you know what I mean just because you hate me, you wouldn’t have made such a fool of yourself.

Whatever you say sport! The president is one of the three co-equal branches of our federal government.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 01:17:01 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EdJames

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2019, 01:17:28 pm »
@mrclose

LOL!   I thought you fully support President Trump.    :shrug:      My bad....will surely keep an eye on you going forward.    happy77
@DCPatriot

@mrclose is a Trump supporter.  He didn't look closely enough at your list...  he thought he was being excluded from a list of Trump supporters....

 wink777
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 01:18:24 pm by EdJames »

Bill Cipher

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2019, 01:19:20 pm »
Whatever you say sport!

You really are a [Personal Insult Removed]

I asked a simple question of someone else and you, instead of figuring out what I was responding to, just assume you know what I’m talking about.

In this case you clearly don’t.  I’m not saying that the lower court injunction was correct, I was responding to someone who said that the courts should never get involved at all in anything where Trump is “protecting” the country.  Only a dictator would say that.  Are you in favor of dictatorship?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 09:01:28 pm by Cyber Liberty »

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2019, 01:19:58 pm »
@DCPatriot

@mrclose is a Trump supporter.  He didn't look closely enough at your list...  he thought he was being excluded from a list of Trump supporters....

 wink777

LOL!   Felt bad that I completely forgot @Smokin Joe !!    :laugh:
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Offline EdJames

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2019, 01:24:37 pm »
LOL!   Felt bad that I completely forgot @Smokin Joe !!    :laugh:

Oh, I don't know...  @Smokin Joe seems to be a guy that calls them pretty fairly as he sees them...

The most obvious exclusion from your list was our good friend, @corbe !

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2019, 02:23:48 pm »
@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

I'm not so sure about that.  From what Elderberry posted above, it looks like what SCOTUS ruled was that the plaintiffs trying to stop him didn't have standing to get a court to do so.  That's a long way from even deciding that no plaintiffs would have standing, let alone that they or others can't get it stopped for other reasons.

Well...yes and no.  I made my comment about what I believe SCOTUS is "likely" to do if there is another district court injunction based on the following:

1) The language actually was "Among the reasons is that the government has made a sufficient showing at this stage that the plaintiffs have no cause of action to obtain review of the Acting Secretary's compliance with Section 8005."  That rather strongly suggests that there are reasons in addition to standing they didn't discuss in this slip opinion.

2) Standing in cases challenging a government policy like this is always going to be tough because just being a member of the public objecting to the President spending money isn't enough to create standing.  You have to show a particularized harm to you, and not simply be acting as a "private attorney general" challenging a government action you believe is unlawful.  However, the Court has -- though they wouldn't admit it -- applied standing requirements rather leniently in cases where they believe there really is a violation of the Constitution.  They chose not to bend standing rules here, which suggests to me the majority does not believe there is a Constitutional violation.

3.   In this particular case, standing is going to be even more difficult than usual to establish because the funds are only being used to turn existing fences into actual walls. So those seeking standing are going to have to show they are harmed personally by turning a pre-existing fence -- which is already permitted, with rights of way, environmental impact and property usage issues already baked in) into a wall.  That's going to be really tough.

4.  As noted by the dissent, there are factors other than likelihood of success on the merits that go into whether or not injunctive relief should have been granted.  In particular, the likelihood of irreparable harm.  This decision by the 5 judges in the majority meant that they agreed that the government will be irreparably harmed by any injunction preventing the use of these funds for the wall.  That's a really big deal, and will apply in any future cases that are brought.  SCOTUS has previously refused to take up some of these direct appeals of bogus injunctions because of the lack of immediate, irreparable harm.  That they did so in this case bodes very well for any future attempts by lower court judges to delay wall construction by issuing bogus injunctions they know would be eventually overturned.  In other words, SCOTUS won't let any of these stand simply by declining to intervene.

So like I said, I think this makes it likely that SCOTUS is going to slap down future attempts, and won't waste any time doing so because it already has recognized the irreparable harm.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 02:45:53 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2019, 02:28:38 pm »
Oh, I don't know...  @Smokin Joe seems to be a guy that calls them pretty fairly as he sees them...

The most obvious exclusion from your list was our good friend, @corbe !

Nope!  @Smokin Joe and @roamer_1  are like two peas in a can.   I huge can!

Nothing is going to make them admit they are wrong about the guy...given what he's had to work with and against.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2019, 02:52:25 pm »
By the way, this case perfectly illustrates the disingenuous nature of the semantic attacks on the Trump Administration for not building "any new fencing".  New fencing would necessarily be emplaced in areas that are of lower priority than those areas that already have fencing.  Higher priority areas that don't yet have actual walls already have fencing, so the most logical first step is to upgrade those crappy fences to actual walls.  That's what this particular case is about, and that's what the Administration has been doing.  That's why you see the critics always talk about "no new fencing", not "no new walls."  Because there has been a lot of those being built.

The other issue is that the permitting, environmental issues, and other potential roadblocks for upgraded existing fences into wall are much lesser than they are for completely new barriest (either fences or walls).  And since those challenges always take time to wind their way through the courts, the best course open to the Administration is to upgrade the somewhat useless fences into very useful walls while the rest of the permitting, etc., is winding its way through the process.


Offline Night Hides Not

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2019, 02:57:44 pm »
Oh, I don't know...  @Smokin Joe seems to be a guy that calls them pretty fairly as he sees them...

The most obvious exclusion from your list was our good friend, @corbe !

I made the list, but not @corbe ?

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2019, 03:06:38 pm »
I have an inspiration:  Let's discuss the topic, and not attack other Members....

This doesn't seem like a "clean victory."  This just allows the contracts to be put out for bid and surveying.  The lower court is free to slam the brakes on again when it comes time to start laying bricks.
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Offline corbe

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2019, 03:08:45 pm »
     Been absent of late, out of sight, out of mind, working in Houston last 4 days, back home now. @EdJames @Night Hides Not
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2019, 04:10:49 pm »
I have an inspiration:  Let's discuss the topic, and not attack other Members....

This doesn't seem like a "clean victory."  This just allows the contracts to be put out for bid and surveying.  The lower court is free to slam the brakes on again when it comes time to start laying bricks.

@Cyber Liberty

That is actually not correct.  Justice Breyer argued that they should only allow the contracts to go out for bid and surveying, and not permit actual construction.  But the majority disagreed, and that's why Justice Breyer concurred in part and dissented in part.

It is still possible for some other group to come up and file suit to stop contracts from going to for bid and/or letting construction start - essentially asking for the same relief as the cases that were just dismissed -- but for the reasons I gave in a post above, I think SCOTUS likely would intervene very quickly and strike down any such injunctions.

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2019, 04:31:28 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

That is actually not correct.  Justice Breyer argued that they should only allow the contracts to go out for bid and surveying, and not permit actual construction.  But the majority disagreed, and that's why Justice Breyer concurred in part and dissented in part.

It is still possible for some other group to come up and file suit to stop contracts from going to for bid and/or letting construction start - essentially asking for the same relief as the cases that were just dismissed -- but for the reasons I gave in a post above, I think SCOTUS likely would intervene very quickly and strike down any such injunctions.

Thanks for the clarification.  The post I read upthread is just her opinion, not the decision.  Doh!
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2019, 04:55:27 pm »
So Trump has free reign to act as a dictator if he just says it’s to “protect” the country?

No, didn't say that.  He has to rule within the confines of the authority granted to him as stipulated by the Constitution.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2019, 08:24:09 pm »
Nope!  @Smokin Joe and @roamer_1  are like two peas in a can. 

Compliments will get you nowhere at this point @DCPatriot

Quote
I huge can!

Are you saying this makes my butt look big?
Hey, I'll tell ya: It's my butt that makes my butt look big.
Don't be so jealous.

Quote
Nothing is going to make them admit they are wrong about the guy...given what he's had to work with and against.

Where have I been wrong about the guy?
By the numbers... What do we get to keep?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2019, 08:29:06 pm »
By the way, this case perfectly illustrates the disingenuous nature of the semantic attacks on the Trump Administration for not building "any new fencing".  New fencing would necessarily be emplaced in areas that are of lower priority than those areas that already have fencing.  Higher priority areas that don't yet have actual walls already have fencing, so the most logical first step is to upgrade those crappy fences to actual walls.  That's what this particular case is about, and that's what the Administration has been doing.  That's why you see the critics always talk about "no new fencing", not "no new walls."  Because there has been a lot of those being built.

I don't know where you are @Maj. Bill Martin , but around here, a fifty mile obstruction is no obstruction at all... We call that landscape, and live with it every day.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.


Quote
The other issue is that the permitting, environmental issues, and other potential roadblocks for upgraded existing fences into wall are much lesser than they are for completely new barriest (either fences or walls).  And since those challenges always take time to wind their way through the courts, the best course open to the Administration is to upgrade the somewhat useless fences into very useful walls while the rest of the permitting, etc., is winding its way through the process.

So low-hanging fruit, and more victory laps...

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2019, 08:39:27 pm »
I don't know where you are @Maj. Bill Martin , but around here, a fifty mile obstruction is no obstruction at all... We call that landscape, and live with it every day.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.


So low-hanging fruit, and more victory laps...

Around here, a 50-mile obstruction is a 100 mile hike to get around it, in a desert.  I'll take every mile I can get.   :shrug:
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2019, 08:46:53 pm »
Around here, a 50-mile obstruction is a 100 mile hike to get around it, in a desert.  I'll take every mile I can get.   :shrug:

It ain't no different here... especially in the winter. And the obstructions we have here already cannot be defeated. You're gonna go around. And you do.

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2019, 09:14:39 pm »


Are you saying this makes my butt look big?
Hey, I'll tell ya: It's my butt that makes my butt look big.
Don't be so jealous.



Nope...just observing that said two peas make a lot of noise rattling around in there.    :laugh:
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Offline mrclose

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2019, 09:20:04 pm »
@DCPatriot

@mrclose is a Trump supporter.  He didn't look closely enough at your list...  he thought he was being excluded from a list of Trump supporters....

 wink777

OOPS!
Thank You @EdJames

I didn't even think that there was anything like an anti-Trump crowd around here?
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Supreme Court rules for Trump in border wall funding dispute
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2019, 09:25:02 pm »
Around here, a 50-mile obstruction is a 100 mile hike to get around it, in a desert.  I'll take every mile I can get.   :shrug:

If you're at one end, it's only a few steps to walk around.

If you're in the middle, it's 50 miles, but that assumes you need to be at the same longitude when you get to the other side, you only want to get to the other side, and you can't take angles.  If you're in the middle, and you start at a 45 degree angle 25 miles before you get to the wall, and you need to be at the same longitude when you get to the other side, and you're going to continue north, you'll travel 71 miles to cover 50 miles northward.

All assuming of course that's it's a pedestrian border to begin with.
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