Author Topic: Can A Gun Store Be Held Liable For A Weapon Sold To A Mass Shooter? A Texas State Court Will Decide  (Read 921 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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On Thursday, Judge Karen Pozza for the 407th District in Bexar County, Texas heard arguments in a suit that could have wide-ranging ramifications for gun sellers' legal liability across the nation. At issue in the litigation is the extent to which San Antonio-based sporting goods retailer Academy Sports + Outdoors could be held liable for the mass shooting that occurred in November 2017 in Sutherland Springs, Texas.

The Dallas Morning News reports:

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On Thursday, lawyers for both Academy Sports + Outdoors and the families of those hurt and killed in the small central Texas community went head-to-head in what was at times a heated debate. During the nearly three-hour hearing, the attorneys argued over federal and state laws, and whether the store should have refused to sell...the gun with which [the shooter] killed and injured dozens at the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs on Nov. 5, 2017.

Judge Karen Pozza said she will issue a ruling by Monday. She could side with Academy's lawyers and throw out the case, or agree with the Sutherland Springs families and let the case continue to a jury trial. The families are asking for millions in damages for physical and mental anguish, disfigurement and medical expenses.

A federal law called the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act generally shields gun sellers from such liability, absent a dealer's negligence or willful violation of another operative federal or state law. The specific issue that Judge Pozza is set to grapple with is whether the federal law definition of a "firearm" includes the magazine with which it is sold — as well as the thorny question of whether a Colorado law banning the sale of "high-capacity" magazines applies to Coloradans who purchase firearms in Texas.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/42943/can-gun-store-be-held-liable-weapon-sold-mass-josh-hammer
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Offline txradioguy

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By the defense attorney's "logic" since I'm a Kentucky resident currently in Colorado because of my job...the gun shops in Colorado should be forced to sell me magazines that hold more than 15 rounds because my state of residence allows them.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

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You know the most restrictive possible application would apply, if this case is ruled in favor of the plaintiffs.

Actually, I think it works this way.

When you make a lawful purchase you are subject to the laws in the state in which the transaction is completed. If you purchase something in person, you can purchase what is legal in that state where you receive the goods.

By mail, you are subject to the laws of the address to where the item(s) are shipped. While sellers try to avoid shipping items to jurisdictions where they are illegal, purchasers are cautioned to check their State and Local laws so that they remain in compliance with those. Items illegal in the jurisdiction of origin are generally not offered for sale from that jurisdiction (IIRC why Magpul moved their AR magazine production out of Colorado).
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Under the case being pushed, and by their logic:
To use Colorado as an example, someone from Wyoming, staying in Colorado, could not go to a dispensary and purchase marijuana for use in Colorado, because marijuana is illegal in Wyoming.

Similarly, someone from Colorado, working in North Dakota, could not purchase a 30 round magazine for an AR-15 or even a magazine for a pistol that held more than 10 rounds, because it is illegal in their home State, even if they never remove the magazine from North Dakota (or bought it as a gift for someone in that State).
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Commerce doesn't work that way, but in either case, compliance with the laws of the jurisdiction a person is present in (including compliance with the laws 'back home' if they go home to different laws) is on the person, not the seller as long as the purchase is legal in that jurisdiction where the transaction takes place.

The pot buyer would not be able to legally take the weed legally purchased in Colorado across state lines into Wyoming, the magazine purchaser would not be able to legally take the magazine back to Colorado with them. But they would be able to legally possess them where the purchases were made.

Similarly, if you purchase something in a jurisdiction, in person, lawfully, you are subject to the rules and regulations of that jurisdiction: you pay their sales tax (if any), you comply with the local laws.

At that point it doesn't matter what the laws are where you came from, only where you are.

So, no, you wouldn't be able to purchase those 30 round mags, unless you had them shipped to Kentucky, where they are legal. In Colorado, they'd be a violation of the law. So despite retaining your KY residency, without a police or military exemption (and I am not sure how that might work for you, being active duty), you could not expect that a merchant in Colorado would be able to sell you a magazine they might not even be legally able to possess.

Needless to say, this presents problems for people who own rifles or handguns which have magazine options that exceed the legal capacity limitations of jurisdictions they travel in. While I may pass through several states which have reciprocity for my concealed weapons permit, Colorado included, it is on me to not take magazines into Colorado which exceed the 10 round limit, whether they are for my carry weapon or a rifle. If i need to replace a magazine, I'm stuck with the legal capacity limitations of the State in which I make the purchase.
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As for the case in question, the judge should dismiss.

It is sad that the firearm in question was misused, but the magazines above 15 rounds capacity are standard for the firearm in the jurisdiction in which the sale was made.

Because magazines are detachable and can be sold separately, they are often classified as "accessories",  and not an integral part of the firearm, despite being important to the optimal use of the firearm. Most firearms can be fired without the magazine in place (some pistols excepted--some have magazine safeties which prevent firing without the magazine in place), although loading single rounds into the firearm and firing them is a relatively cumbersome and time consuming process.

Whether the magazines had 15 rounds or 30 rounds, or more is generally moot, because the purchase was made legally in the jurisdiction.
The seller had no way to ascertain that the firearm or the magazines would be used illegally. The purchaser passed the background check.
Reducing the capacity of the magazines would only require the person using the firearm (for whatever purpose) to change magazines more frequently, something which can take as little as a couple of seconds. All they need do in order to fire a given number of rounds is reload.

To hold the seller liable would require the seller to do something not considered humanly possible: to predict the future use of that firearm and the future actions of all who handled it.

As I said, it is sad that the firearm was misused, in violation of the law. It is sad that these people lost their loved ones. But once we start down this slippery slope, will car dealers be held liable for those killed in accidents by the cars they sold? Will those who sell hand tools not generally used for administering lethal blunt force trauma be held liable in those instances where those tools are thus used?
Such logic could spell the end of the sale of anything which could be misused, from kitchen knives to claw hammers to semi Trucks. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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At that point it doesn't matter what the laws are where you came from, only where you are.

And that's how it should be.  That's the logical/common sense decision.  I just hope the judge sees it that way too.

If she doesn't and it goes to the jury I'm afraid it would start the country down a slippery slope towards what Hillary wants and that's the ability for victims to sue the gun manufacturers...with the unstated and unspoken mission to run them out of business.

First they came for the gun shops...

I'm always real careful and obey all the traffic laws when I drive through Denver.  They...along with Pueblo and Boulder have banned all "assault rifles" and limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds.  Which means I can't carry either one of my Sigs if I'm heading there for the day.  And if I'm heading through there on my way to Idaho to see my grandson I make sure I don't have to stop until at least Ft. Collins because I have it on good authority if the cops in Denver pull you over and you've got anything over 10 rounds they'll confiscate the gun and you're in a world of hurt...even if you were just passing through to somewhere else.


Quote
Because magazines are detachable and can be sold separately, they are often classified as "accessories",  and not an integral part of the firearm, despite being important to the optimal use of the firearm. Most firearms can be fired without the magazine in place (some pistols excepted--some have magazine safeties which prevent firing without the magazine in place), although loading single rounds into the firearm and firing them is a relatively cumbersome and time consuming process.

I can't find the article anymore I saw it earlier today and I wish I'd saved it...there was a story about a lawmaker wanting to reclassify the magazines as a weapon just like the gun and not an accessory.  IF that ever happens expect to have to undergo background checks and waiting periods just to get an extra magazine for your Bersa Thunder .380 that only comes with one in the box.

One thing about the Libs...they never stop prodding and probing the defense of those that support and defend the Second Amendment looking for a weakness they can exploit.

This case highlights that fact.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

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And that's how it should be.  That's the logical/common sense decision.  I just hope the judge sees it that way too.

If she doesn't and it goes to the jury I'm afraid it would start the country down a slippery slope towards what Hillary wants and that's the ability for victims to sue the gun manufacturers...with the unstated and unspoken mission to run them out of business.

First they came for the gun shops...

I'm always real careful and obey all the traffic laws when I drive through Denver.  They...along with Pueblo and Boulder have banned all "assault rifles" and limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds.  Which means I can't carry either one of my Sigs if I'm heading there for the day.  And if I'm heading through there on my way to Idaho to see my grandson I make sure I don't have to stop until at least Ft. Collins because I have it on good authority if the cops in Denver pull you over and you've got anything over 10 rounds they'll confiscate the gun and you're in a world of hurt...even if you were just passing through to somewhere else.
The risk if you are just passing through is that some idiot will try to occupy the same space your vehicle occupies with theirs. Even on the interstate up by Ft. Collins there are signs admonishing drivers to 'pull wrecked vehicles to the side' so as not to impede traffic. I have never seen signs like that anywhere else in the US, and I have only missed a few states. The inference is that there are a lot of accidents, and that the drivers involved don't have enough sense to get out of the way, which is a sobering prospect, especially for one who does not use the local herbal remedies for reality. Be careful out there, simply because the people around you might not obey the traffic laws and leave you a casualty of their stupidity in more ways than one.

Quote
I can't find the article anymore I saw it earlier today and I wish I'd saved it...there was a story about a lawmaker wanting to reclassify the magazines as a weapon just like the gun and not an accessory.  IF that ever happens expect to have to undergo background checks and waiting periods just to get an extra magazine for your Bersa Thunder .380 that only comes with one in the box.

One thing about the Libs...they never stop prodding and probing the defense of those that support and defend the Second Amendment looking for a weakness they can exploit.

This case highlights that fact.
I recall just such a push to have magazines serialized during the assault weapons ban under Clinton, simply because that law did not ban magazines obtained prior to the ban. Thy wanted a way to tell pre-ban from post-ban magazines.
(That ban made me a 'hero' to my boss's sons, who each got a 10/22 for Christmas: I gave them each two 25 round magazines that year, which could no longer be bought, and I think they were more excited to get those than even the rifles. )

Liberals, especially anti-gun Liberals are persistent, though. They know if America ever awakened to what they have done, they'd at a minimum lose power, and their dreams of world domination would be actively resisted by any means necessary. No surprise they bastardize the meaning of the 2nd, nor that they dream of limiting the means to resist their policy and rule.

If they float an idea, it will be back if it fails, and if it succeeds anywhere in being implemented, even the smallest toehold, they will seek to expand it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Liberals, especially anti-gun Liberals are persistent, though. They know if America ever awakened to what they have done, they'd at a minimum lose power, and their dreams of world domination would be actively resisted by any means necessary. No surprise they bastardize the meaning of the 2nd, nor that they dream of limiting the means to resist their policy and rule.

If they float an idea, it will be back if it fails, and if it succeeds anywhere in being implemented, even the smallest toehold, they will seek to expand it.

Just read a really interesting article in this months Shooting Illustrated that details just how far Justice Stevens went when he was on the Supreme Court to try and undermine the 2nd Amendment in the Heller and the McDonald cases.

He didn't get everything he was after in either case but he got enough concessions from the majority in their ruling to allow the lower court judges to thumb their nose at Heller and McDonald and continue to consistently rule against and violate the 2nd Amendment in their decisions.

It's disgusting.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Don't get your hopes up. Karen Pozza is a Democrat.
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Offline txradioguy

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Don't get your hopes up. Karen Pozza is a Democrat.

That's what I was afraid of.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Just read a really interesting article in this months Shooting Illustrated that details just how far Justice Stevens went when he was on the Supreme Court to try and undermine the 2nd Amendment in the Heller and the McDonald cases.

He didn't get everything he was after in either case but he got enough concessions from the majority in their ruling to allow the lower court judges to thumb their nose at Heller and McDonald and continue to consistently rule against and violate the 2nd Amendment in their decisions.

It's disgusting.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Why no one of course...because they are the smartest and wisest among us.  Who are we to dare question their thinking on such issues?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!