At least five dead in Florida bank shooting standoff

[bigheadfred]

You can say broad, as long as you don-t follow it with brush.

uh-oh

I thought "owner's manual" meant they were Spanish.

[ConstitutionRose]

Well, when government fails to deliver justice.... it is (and will be again some day) up to citizens to deliver said justice.   An expected result from too many liberal judges inexplicably giving perps a slap on the wrist for heinous crimes...(too many instances of the truly guilty getting away with it).

That kind of justice depends upon which state you're in, of course.

The daughter of one of my female co-workers was raped.  The trial was delayed and the perp repeated the act (he was walking around free on bail).  When my co-worker contacted the AG to express her concern, he shrugged and said "usually the family takes care of these issues".   My co-worker allowed as how her ex-husband was a drunk and useless, so she had been depending on the legal system for justice.  The perp raped a third girl and ended up dead in a ravine way up in the mountains.  Tennessee mountain people.

[Dexter]

Uh... he opened fire and killed five people in a bank.... and he's still alive?   Am I the only one here that thinks wackos like this should be shot and killed like the rabid dogs they are, thus saving the taxpayers the cost of the ahole's trial, defense, and imprisonment for the rest of their miserable lives...?  Forget the ""negotiations"".  He lost that perk the moment he took an innocent life.  I bet if it became the norm for the cops to shoot to kill in these instances (no negotiating), fewer of these morons would be so willing to get their 15 minutes of fame by killing others.

The truth is the cops did a good job by not shooting him. If he's not a lethal threat anymore you're not supposed to kill him; that's how our laws work. It stings a little in situations like this, but these standards exist for good reasons.

[Cyber Liberty]

The daughter of one of my female co-workers was raped.  The trial was delayed and the perp repeated the act (he was walking around free on bail).  When my co-worker contacted the AG to express her concern, he shrugged and said "usually the family takes care of these issues".   My co-worker allowed as how her ex-husband was a drunk and useless, so she had been depending on the legal system for justice.  The perp raped a third girl and ended up dead in a ravine way up in the mountains.  Tennessee mountain people.

Sounds like the Prosecutor had it right.

[Cyber Liberty]

The truth is the cops did a good job by not shooting him. If he's not a lethal threat anymore you're not supposed to kill him; that's how our laws work. It stings a little in situations like this, but these standards exist for good reasons.

That's how it works.  Had an Officer shot the perp after he was no longer a risk, that would be Murder.

[XenaLee]

The truth is the cops did a good job by not shooting him. If he's not a lethal threat anymore you're not supposed to kill him; that's how our laws work. It stings a little in situations like this, but these standards exist for good reasons.

My point is... you don't ""negotiate"" with a rabid dog.  You eliminate the danger that rabid dog presents.  Too often, in these mass shooting incidents... whether due to political correctness or the idiocy/liberalness of the law enforcement PTBs... the officers are ordered to 'stand down' or 'negotiate' after innocent lives have been taken.  Why negotiate with someone that just killed everyone in the bank?  There were no (live) hostaqes to negotiate for.   

[Cyber Liberty]

My point is... you don't ""negotiate"" with a rabid dog.  You eliminate the danger that rabid dog presents.  Too often, in these mass shooting incidents... whether due to political correctness or the idiocy/liberalness of the law enforcement PTBs... the officers are ordered to 'stand down' or 'negotiate' after innocent lives have been taken.  Why negotiate with someone that just killed everyone in the bank?  There were no (live) hostaqes to negotiate for.   

There was still one "hostage," the perp.  If the Police had shot him after he surrendered his weapon, they'd be tried for Murder (and probably convicted, too).  I have to agree with @Dexter on this one.

[XenaLee]

There was still one "hostage," the perp.  If the Police had shot him after he surrendered his weapon, they'd be tried for Murder (and probably convicted, too).  I have to agree with @Dexter on this one.

And notice.... that I said "Too often, in these mass shooting incidents....".

I don't know the exact timing of these "negotiations" and how it went down in this incident.  But I do know, from past history, how it has gone down previously.   That's all I'm saying.

[Cyber Liberty]

And notice.... that I said "Too often, in these mass shooting incidents....".

I don't know the exact timing of these "negotiations" and how it went down in this incident.  But I do know, from past history, how it has gone down previously.   That's all I'm saying.

It is unusual for a perp to surrender...they usually go down shooting.  "Suicide by Cop."

[XenaLee]

It is unusual for a perp to surrender...they usually go down shooting.  "Suicide by Cop."

Usually they are already suicidal and thus, mentally unbalanced. 

This one looks like a "mommy's basement" dwelling man-child to me.   Fine with gunning down innocent women... as if he was back in da basement playing his video games, but doesn't want to get gunned down himself.  Which tells me his only mental problems are hate and cowardice.   

[Sanguine]

There was still one "hostage," the perp.  If the Police had shot him after he surrendered his weapon, they'd be tried for Murder (and probably convicted, too).  I have to agree with @Dexter on this one.

Me too.  If I were a cop, I would be willing to risk my life for live hostages, but not to extra-judiciously kill an alleged perpetrator.   The cop would pay dearly for doing so, and so would his family and co-workers.

[bigheadfred]

Sutherland Springs church shooting.

I wonder if this shooter would have peacefully surrendered to police if he hadn't been shot by a "bystander" when he left the church? It appears he was attempting to run away and not make his last stand at the church.

[Cyber Liberty]

Sutherland Springs church shooting.

I wonder if this shooter would have peacefully surrendered to police if he hadn't been shot by a "bystander" when he left the church? It appears he was attempting to run away and not make his last stand at the church.

When a perp is fleeing, he must be considered by the Cops to still be a threat to others.  Shooting him under those circumstances would not be considered Murder by anybody other than a cop-hating DA.

[txradioguy]

My point is... you don't ""negotiate"" with a rabid dog.  You eliminate the danger that rabid dog presents. Too often, in these mass shooting incidents... whether due to political correctness or the idiocy/liberalness of the law enforcement PTBs... the officers are ordered to 'stand down' or 'negotiate' after innocent lives have been taken.  Why negotiate with someone that just killed everyone in the bank?  There were no (live) hostaqes to negotiate for.   

Pakland HS is a textbook example of what I bolded.  In that case the shooter could have been stopped by a teacher before he ever entered the building and wasn't.  And then there was the cowdarice displayed by the BCSO.

[txradioguy]

Sutherland Springs church shooting.

I wonder if this shooter would have peacefully surrendered to police if he hadn't been shot by a "bystander" when he left the church? It appears he was attempting to run away and not make his last stand at the church.

Nope he was attempting to evade capture.  He only stopped shooting in the church IIRC when he was engaged by a civilian with a firearm.

[bigheadfred]

When a perp is fleeing, he must be considered by the Cops to still be a threat to others.  Shooting him under those circumstances would not be considered Murder by anybody other than a cop-hating DA.

During the chase, Kelley called his father to tell him that he was injured and thought that he would not survive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

Shot while fleeing, yes. Maybe I am reading too much into this. But if he used the word "survive" then it points me in the direction that he intended to survive if he hadn't been shot by the neighbor.

[XenaLee]

Pakland HS is a textbook example of what I bolded.  In that case the shooter could have been stopped by a teacher before he ever entered the building and wasn't.  And then there was the cowdarice displayed by the BCSO.

Right.  That's one incident I was thinking of.   Thanks.

[Cyber Liberty]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

Shot while fleeing, yes. Maybe I am reading too much into this. But if he used the word "survive" then it points me in the direction that he intended to survive if he hadn't been shot by the neighbor.

Other than people being murdered there is not much similarity between this bank and Sutherland.

My point is and was, if this fellow surrendered and gave up his weapon, killing him at that point would be Murder, and would be charged as such.

[bigheadfred]

Nope he was attempting to evade capture.  He only stopped shooting in the church IIRC when he was engaged by a civilian with a firearm.

Also in the same Wikipedia article:

He was shot twice by a male civilian as he exited the church.

As Kelley left the church, he was confronted by and traded fire with Stephen Willeford, a local resident and former NRA firearms instructor[12] who was armed with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.

I don't know. I wasn't there. It appears he had stopped his rampage and was only attempting to flee and only fired at the neighbor after being confronted.

[Cyber Liberty]

Also in the same Wikipedia article:

I don't know. I wasn't there. It appears he had stopped his rampage and was only attempting to flee and only fired at the neighbor after being confronted.

He neither surrendered to the neighbor nor gave up his weapon.  That made him armed and a danger to others.  That's why I say the cases are not similar.

[GtHawk]

Maybe because SWAT has a bit more on the professional (legal) side and not so much on the vigilante side?

More Kersey, less SWAT!

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Uh... he opened fire and killed five people in a bank.... and he's still alive?   Am I the only one here that thinks wackos like this should be shot and killed like the rabid dogs they are, thus saving the taxpayers the cost of the ahole's trial, defense, and imprisonment for the rest of their miserable lives...?  Forget the ""negotiations"".  He lost that perk the moment he took an innocent life.  I bet if it became the norm for the cops to shoot to kill in these instances (no negotiating), fewer of these morons would be so willing to get their 15 minutes of fame by killing others.

The other side of that is once they kill one person, . . . . they have nothing to lose so it's sky's the limit.