Author Topic: Lindsey Graham to Introduce Bill Ending Birthright Citizenship ‘Magnet’ for Illegal Immigration  (Read 2751 times)

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Offline SirLinksALot

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SOURCE: BREITBART

URL: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/30/lindsey-graham-to-introduce-bill-ending-birthright-citizenship-magnet-for-illegal-immigration/

by Sean Moran



Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) announced on Tuesday that he plans to introduce legislation ending birthright citizenship for children born to illegal immigrants on American soil, citing it as a “magnet for illegal immigration.”

President Donald J. Trump announced on Tuesday that he plans to draft an executive order to end birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants born in America.

Trump told Axios’ Jonathan Swan: But now they’re saying I can do it with just an executive order. Now, how ridiculous–we are the only country in the world where a person comes in, has a baby, and the baby is essentially a citizen of the United States for 85 years with all of those benefits? It’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous–and it has to end.

Sen. Graham cheered Trump’s move against birthright citizenship, citing it as a significant “magnet” for illegal immigration.

“Finally, a president willing to take on this absurd policy of birthright citizenship,” Graham said in a statement. “I’ve always supported comprehensive immigration reform – and at the same time – the elimination of birthright citizenship.”

Graham continued explaining that birthright citizenship is a foreign concept in most modern countries.

The South Carolina Republican said, “The United States is one of two developed countries in the world who grant citizenship based on location of birth. This policy is a magnet for illegal immigration, out of the mainstream of the developed world, and needs to come to an end.”

Eliminating birthright citizenship would prevent children born of illegal aliens would not receive citizenship status and would likely deter the practice of foreigners having “anchor babies” where immigrants plan to give birth to children on American soil to obtain citizenship for their children.

(Excerpt) Read more at above link....

Offline SirLinksALot

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OK folks, let's discuss -- how do you write either an Executive Order OR a Congressional Bill ending birthright citizenship without bumping up against the 14th Amendment of our Constitution?

Here it is for your reminder (emphasis BOLDED ):

Quote
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Offline SirLinksALot

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Folks, this issue is one of an Executive Order or even a bill versus how we interpret the 14th Amendment of our constitution.

The Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment guarantees citizenship to any baby born in the United States, with one proviso: you have to be "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

The issue is over whether a baby born to illegal alien parents is subject to U.S. jurisdiction. One argument is that since a person within the United States is covered by the law generally, he is so "subject" and so is a citizen. OTOH, Senator Jacob Howard, who had authored the Citizenship Clause, said that they babies born in the United States of foreigners are not covered by that clause, because their allegiance is to the country of their parents and not to the United States.

The Supreme Court has interpreted the Citizenship Clause multiple times, but never this situation. President Trump's executive order would likely force the issue into the Supreme Court, because there will be Liberal federal judges who will strike it down. This issue could be before the Supreme Court in time for the 2020 campaign.

Offline Jazzhead

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All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, . . .

Note that the phrase at issue does not represent a conclusion, but rather a limitation.    If any person born in the United States is automatically a citizen, there would be no need for the limitation.   It would simply read that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens".

Clearly, not all persons born in the United States are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".    What persons are not so subject, at the time of their birth ?   Reasonably, those who are born here to persons not legally present.   If I am here legally,  temporarily or permanently, and whether I am a citizen or not,  then my child born here would appear to be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and therefore a citizen.    But if I am not here legally?    That's the question of interpretation that appears to be within the authority of the President, or Congress, to enact (subject, ultimately, to the SCOTUS agreeing or disagreeing with that interpretation).   

Also noteworthy is the language that one be "subject" to the jurisdiction of the United States.   Typically, jurisdiction relates to the authority of the courts, and most courts' authority is limited geographically.   If an illegal commits a crime in Pennsylvania,  he will be tried in a Pennsylvania court regardless of any argument that, because he's here illegally,  he is not subject to the court's jurisdiction.    But again, the issue here isn't the actions of the born child, but rather whether he is "born" subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.   And that depends, it seems to me, is whether there may be a competing jurisdiction when his mother has no legal right to be here.   
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 08:38:48 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline TomSea

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This was the big story, I don't think Paul Ryan can crusade and stop this bill if it is before the new house, whatever that is, is sworn in.

Online libertybele

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The amendment needs to be amended to change the verbage to the 14A to state that it "guarantees citizenship to any baby born in the United States, PROVIDED that at least one parent is a LEGAL citizen of the United States at the time of birth. Period.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Graham continues to pleasantly surprise time and time again.

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Offline Jazzhead

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The amendment needs to be amended to change the verbage to the 14A to state that it "guarantees citizenship to any baby born in the United States, PROVIDED that at least one parent is a LEGAL citizen of the United States at the time of birth. Period.

A mere act of Congress can't amend the 14A, any more than a Presidential EO can.   All it can do is codify an interpretation of the existing language.   And I doubt that the limitation you propose would be Constitutional.   

The leading case is from 1898,  and upheld the citizenship of a child born in San Francisco of Chinese parents who were barred from citizenship by the Chinese Exclusion Act.   The case,  U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark,   stated that " the 14th Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens."

So  the child of any "documented" immigrant becomes a citizen.   Resident aliens, to be sure,  but I'd think the rule would apply to anyone who is here legally, including someone here temporarily here on a green card.   

The question for the courts, in the wake of an  anticipated EO or law passed by Congress, is whether the 14th Amendment applies to children born here of undocumented immigrants - those not here under any color of legal authority or permission.    I think this goes to the meaning of "allegiance and protection" as used in the Wong Kim Ark opinion.   If neither the United States nor the individual herself acknowledges the legality of her presence,  she is not, arguably,  within the "allegiance and protection" of the United States.   Perhaps such an EO or law,  strictly limited to the undocumented,  would survive a court challenge. 

Anything broader, such as the rule you prescribe requiring full citizenship of a parent, is IMO likely to be unconstitutional in the absence of a true Constitutional amendment ratified by two-thirds of the States.     
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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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@Jazzhead
Note that the phrase at issue does not represent a conclusion, but rather a limitation.    If any person born in the United States is automatically a citizen, there would be no need for the limitation.   It would simply read that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens".

Clearly, not all persons born in the United States are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".    What persons are not so subject, at the time of their birth ?   Reasonably, those who are born here to persons not legally present.   If I am here legally,  temporarily or permanently, and whether I am a citizen or not,  then my child born here would appear to be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and therefore a citizen.    But if I am not here legally?    That's the question of interpretation that appears to be within the authority of the President, or Congress, to enact (subject, ultimately, to the SCOTUS agreeing or disagreeing with that interpretation).   

Also noteworthy is the language that one be "subject" to the jurisdiction of the United States.   Typically, jurisdiction relates to the authority of the courts, and most courts' authority is limited geographically.   If an illegal commits a crime in Pennsylvania,  he will be tried in a Pennsylvania court regardless of any argument that, because he's here illegally,  he is not subject to the court's jurisdiction.    But again, the issue here isn't the actions of the born child, but rather whether he is "born" subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.   And that depends, it seems to me, is whether there may be a competing jurisdiction when his mother has no legal right to be here.

I wish you were right, but....

Under your logic, it would seem that the courts would have to admit they have no legal jurisdiction over people who are here illegally.  In which case, how do we prosecute them for crimes they commit, or require them to appear in our courts?  They have to be subject to our jurisdiction, don't they?

The most obvious category of people who are here in the U.S. but over whom we don't have jurisdiction are representatives of foreign governments with diplomatic immunity.  So, if the Peruvian ambassador has a kid while stationed in the U.S., that kid doesn't get birthright citizenship.  It's a narrow category, but certainly legitimate and with some pretty strong legal support.

It's an interesting issue that may point out the difference between being an originalist, and a textualist.  An originalist might say "well, it was never intended to grant automatic citizenship to people who are here illegally", but a textualist would say "Hey, it says what it says."

But it is also kind of amusing that leftists who tend to run from the actual text of the document and argue that it is a "Living Document" whose interpretation should change as societal needs, expectations, and values change are now bitterly clinging to the strict textual language.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:44:16 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

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@Jazzhead
I wish you were right, but....

Under your logic, it would seem that the courts would have to admit they have no legal jurisdiction over people who are here illegally.  In which case, how do we prosecute them for crimes they commit, or require them to appear in our courts?  They have to be subject to our jurisdiction, don't they?

The most obvious category of people who are here in the U.S. but over whom we don't have jurisdiction are representatives of foreign governments with diplomatic immunity.  So, if the Peruvian ambassador has a kid while stationed in the U.S., that kid doesn't get birthright citizenship.  It's a narrow category, but certainly legitimate and with some pretty strong legal support.

It's an interesting issue that may point out the difference between being an originalist, and a textualist.  An originalist might say "well, it was never intended to grant automatic citizenship to people who are here illegally", but a textualist would say "Hey, it says what it says."

But it is also kind of amusing that leftists who tend to run from the actual text of the document and argue that it is a "Living Document" whose interpretation should chance as needs change are now bitterly clinging to the strict textual language.

@Maj. Bill Martin

From the Congressional Globe:



And then we have two Supreme Court opinions, both issued within the decade after ratification of the 14th Amendment are particularly relevant to construing the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision. Note that, because the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision did not determine the outcome in either case, the Court’s statements in both decisions are dicta, not binding holdings. But the Justices’ words should be considered authoritative insofar as they were expressed by Justices who lived through the enactment of the provision they were construing, and thus were well positioned to comprehend the meaning and intention of the words. These Court-expressed views on the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision should also be considered authoritative because the Justices were unanimous in making the statement in one case, and, in the other, the dissenters did not disagree with that particular point.

In the Slaughterhouse Cases the Court wrote that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of … citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” That is as absolute and complete a statement as can be imagined, and it would deny birthright citizenship to a child born in this country to undocumented immigrants or to a transient alien mother. Then, two years later, in Minor v. Happersett, the Court unanimously and expressly recognized the existence of “doubts” that citizenship was automatic for “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents,” after noting that citizenship attaches only when the immigrant owes “allegiance” to this country. These two Supreme Court rejections of automatic birthright citizenship for anyone born in this country, without regard to the parents’ citizenship status, are supported by facts undoubtedly known to those Justices, and certainly known to us.

During the same session in which Congress approved the 14th Amendment, it had already enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1866, providing that, for a U.S.-born baby to be a citizen, the baby must “not [be] subject to any foreign power.” A child, although born in this country, who, after birth, returns with foreign citizen parents to, and lives in, the foreign country of which the child remains a citizen, is subject to that foreign power. Thus, that statute mandated that such U.S.-born children be denied U.S. citizenship. The record makes clear that, in considering the 14th Amendment, Congress did not repudiate the statute it had just enacted. Not even a single member introduced a bill to rescind that legislation. The absence of any attempts to walk back the statute suggests that Congress remained satisfied with that law, and that the same-session approval of the 14th Amendment did not signal any change of view.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:50:46 pm by Bigun »
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Offline catfish1957

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OK folks, let's discuss -- how do you write either an Executive Order OR a Congressional Bill ending birthright citizenship without bumping up against the 14th Amendment of our Constitution?

Here it is for your reminder (emphasis BOLDED ):

This may be way out in left field but what if an invasion force (pregnant brigade) came in with the expressed purpose of implanting foreign citizens in masse?  National emergency/ War Powers?
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Offline skeeter

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This may be way out in left field but what if an invasion force (pregnant brigade) came in with the expressed purpose of implanting foreign citizens in masse?  National emergency/ War Powers?

Its not out in left field. It highlights the lunacy of our current policy. Because for all practical purposes this is whats happening today in detail.

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In the Slaughterhouse Cases the Court wrote that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of … citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” That is as absolute and complete a statement as can be imagined, and it would deny birthright citizenship to a child born in this country to undocumented immigrants or to a transient alien mother. Then, two years later, in Minor v. Happersett, the Court unanimously and expressly recognized the existence of “doubts” that citizenship was automatic for “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents,” after noting that citizenship attaches only when the immigrant owes “allegiance” to this country. These two Supreme Court rejections of automatic birthright citizenship for anyone born in this country, without regard to the parents’ citizenship status, are supported by facts undoubtedly known to those Justices, and certainly known to us.

During the same session in which Congress approved the 14th Amendment, it had already enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1866, providing that, for a U.S.-born baby to be a citizen, the baby must “not [be] subject to any foreign power.” A child, although born in this country, who, after birth, returns with foreign citizen parents to, and lives in, the foreign country of which the child remains a citizen, is subject to that foreign power. Thus, that statute mandated that such U.S.-born children be denied U.S. citizenship. The record makes clear that, in considering the 14th Amendment, Congress did not repudiate the statute it had just enacted. Not even a single member introduced a bill to rescind that legislation. The absence of any attempts to walk back the statute suggests that Congress remained satisfied with that law, and that the same-session approval of the 14th Amendment did not signal any change of view.

You're actually going further than @Jazzhead , and arguing that even if the parents are here legally, the child still isn't a citizen at birth because the parents are still citizens of another country.  Is that correct?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 03:09:33 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Jazzhead

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You're actually going further than @Jazzhead , and arguing that even if the parents are here legally, the child still isn't a citizen at birth because the parents are still citizens of another country.  Is that correct?

I think the Wong Kim Ark case is likely the closest we have to a controlling precedent,  and it clearly holds that the child of legal aliens is a citizen.   What is interesting,  I think, is the Court's use of the words "in the allegiance and protection of the country".   I'd draw the line between documented and undocumented aliens.   The former are here legally and both the alien and the United States acknowledge the protection of United States law.   I don't think the word "allegiance", in this context, means citizenship but rather the alien's acknowledgement,  by her presence being officially documented,  that she is here subject to our laws and protections.    @Maj. Bill Martin   @Bigun
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 03:25:50 pm by Jazzhead »
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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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I think the Wong Kim Ark case is likely the closest we have to a controlling precedent,  and it clearly holds that the child of legal aliens is a citizen.   What is interesting,  I think, is the Court's use of the words "in the allegiance and protection of the country".   I'd draw the line between documented and undocumented aliens.   The former are here legally and both the alien and the United States acknowledge the protection of United States law.   I don't think the word "allegiance", in this context, means citizenship but rather the alien's acknowledgement,  by her presence being officially documented,  that she is here subject to our laws and protections.    @Maj. Bill Martin   @Bigun

As a practical matter, i don't think the Supreme Court would (or even should) consider Wong Kim Ark and similar cases as precedent on the issue of the children of illegal/undocumented aliens because the statements at issue were dicta.  I think we're stuck with the 14th Amendment's "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof", and as I pointed out above, we had better hope that illegals and their children are subject to our jurisdiction, or we're in big trouble.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 03:39:55 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Sanguine

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As a practical matter, i don't think the Supreme Court would (or even should) consider Wong Kim Ark and similar cases as precedent on the issue of the children of illegal/undocumented aliens because the statements at issue were dicta.  I think we're stuck with the 14th Amendment's "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof", and as I pointed out above, we had better hope that illegals and their children are subject to our jurisdiction, or we're in big trouble.

Wouldn't the assumption be that since they are here illegally they should be deported or jailed?

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You're actually going further than @Jazzhead , and arguing that even if the parents are here legally, the child still isn't a citizen at birth because the parents are still citizens of another country.  Is that correct?

100% correct!
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Offline SirLinksALot

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For those who believe that we have to interpret the constitution ACCORDING TO ITS ORIGINAL INTENT, we actually have the writings of the very folks who helped to craft the 14th Amendment.

Talk Show host, Mark Levin replayed a clip from his show in 2015, in which he laid out the stated purpose of the 14th Amendment and read Senator Jacob Howard’s explanation.

For those who don't know, Jacob Howard was a U.S. Representative and U.S. Senator from the state of Michigan during and after the American Civil War.

During the debate over the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, Howard was the one who argued for including the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof:"

Here is what he said:

Quote
“‘This will not of course include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens … but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship.’ … Is it not plain English? Is he not as clear as can be that it does not include aliens, it does not include foreigners. … The republican basis for citizenship is consent! Consent of the country! You can’t self-immigrate. You can’t claim jurisdiction because you happen to walk into the United States.”

“What is the bottom line here? Let’s emphasize this:

Quote
They wanted to make certain that former slaves would be treated as citizens of the United States, because certain states were still resistant. … They exempted Indians, because Indians still, certainly back then, were often considered citizens of particular tribes. But these actually were very forward-looking individuals. They specifically excluded aliens and foreigners.”

Here's an Excerpt from the book : A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875 Congressional Globe, Senate, 39th Congress, 1st Session Page 2890 of 3840

Quote
...[E]very person born within the limits of the United State, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of person

So, the author of the citizenship clause intended to count foreigners, aliens and those born to ambassadors, foreign ministers, as outside the jurisdiction of the United States. That’s Senator Jacob Howard. He knew, as his reference to natural law indicates that the republican basis for citizenship is consent – consent of the country.

You can’t self-immigrate. You can’t claim jurisdiction because you happen to walk into the United States.

Here's another observation by Mark Levin:

Quote
“Senator Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee and a powerful supporter of the Fourteenth Amendment, remarked on May 30, 1866, that the jurisdiction clause includes those ‘not owing allegiance to anybody else … It’s only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.’

 Thus, it was clear, the idea of allegiance, ‘not subject to any foreign power,’ was central to understanding the jurisdiction clause of the Fourteenth Amendment

« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 08:08:29 pm by SirLinksALot »

Offline SirLinksALot

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Based on the above article by Mark Levin, I believe the original intent is NOT to include children born from illegals or even from parents who are not legal residents of this country ( even if they are here legally, say Tourists ) as citizens by birth.

The only problem is this -- What are we going to do with children ALREADY BORN under those conditions? MILLIONS OF THEM.

The only solution really is LEGISLATION which will NOT affect those ALREADY MADE citizens by birth but will only affect those born AFTER a certain date.



Offline Sanguine

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Based on the above article by Mark Levin, I believe the original intent is NOT to include children born from illegals or even from parents who are not legal residents of this country ( even if they are here legally, say Tourists ) as citizens by birth.

The only problem is this -- What are we going to do with children ALREADY BORN under those conditions? MILLIONS OF THEM.

The only solution really is LEGISLATION which will NOT affect those ALREADY MADE citizens by birth but will only affect those born AFTER a certain date.


We can accommodate them.  2 years from today or within one year of turning 18 to file for citizenship, must revoke any other citizenship (no dual citizenship).  No chain migration allowed.  Must have lived in the US for the past ____ years or since they were born. 

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Offline SirLinksALot

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Would it be more satisfactory if I copied and pasted the entire article?

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It would have been more satisfactory if you had - for I presume it was you - quoted Sen. Howard’s oral statement in full, and not elided out the key phrase that qualifies the types of “foreigners, aliens” who, in his view, would be excluded under the amendment as he proposed it; namely, individuals who “belong to the families of embassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States”.

Sen. Howard quite clearly contemplated that even temporary sojourners would qualify if born within the territorial reach of the US. 

His statement, as elided, misrepresents his position.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 02:46:58 am by SirLinksALot »

Offline Sanguine

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It would have been more satisfactory if you had - for I presume it was you - quoted Sen. Howard’s oral statement in full, and not elided out the key phrase that qualifies the types of “foreigners, aliens” who, in his view, would be excluded under the amendment as he proposed it; namely, individuals who “belong to the families of embassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States”.

Sen. Howard quite clearly contemplated that even temporary sojourners would qualify if born within the territorial reach of the US. 

His statement, as elided, misrepresents his position.

@SirLinksALot presented documentation to back up his position.  Can you do the same?  @Oceander