Author Topic: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...  (Read 11007 times)

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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #200 on: September 21, 2018, 11:59:49 pm »
@Mesaclone
That's because Augustine was a pedantic 3rd grader.

I understand where your thinking comes from, as Greco-Roman thought undoubtedly forms the basis of what the western philosophers call 'reason'... But in that I would point out a certain romanticized view... While both were successful enough to produce an elite class that had time enough to sit on their fat rumps and ponder their navels, both were also extremely brutal caste driven societies, whose underclasses and slaves suffered bitterly in order to sustain those heightened seats for those glorified asses. As was American society, particularly in the South, at the time of the Constitution's signing. While the excesses of 18th century America do not reach the levels of Greek and Roman society, it should not be disregarded that, though ours was a "class" rather than a "caste" driven system, it involved an underclass of slaves and wage serfs. It is little wonder that both of these are identified as 'beast' systems in the Word.

As the West would have it, there was nothing but grunting and farting before Pythagoras penned his worthy tomes, but that is largely described by the hubris of our historians, leaning upon earlier works in the West, which were by every account, ignorant of history beyond that described by Rome, as the West crawled from the muddy and bloody depths of the dark ages, to stand once again... No doubt the educated classes sitting in the rubble pined for the Pax Romana, and forgot entirely that it had been imposed upon them at the tip of  very brutal sword.

And yet all the truly great works in history - Those hallmarks of culture that many would point to, suggest that the Greeks were hardly the start of things... The pyramids put Pythagoras, Euclid, and even Isaac Newton to shame, in their construction, and confound the best minds all the way to today in their construction. And I do not mean merely the pyramids of Egypt, but the pyramids everywhere - And they are everywhere. You are correct, of course, that the Greeks did not spring from the ether...and that great works were achieved prior to their rise...sadly, much of what came before was simply lost to the perils of war, disease and societal collapse. Greek thought certainly was drawn from that which preceded it....Egyptian, Sumerian, Minoan, etcetera...its preservation made it a foundation upon which both Rome and Enlightenment thought could build.

We could no more build them today than we could lift and transport the 3 sisters of Baalbek. It is beyond us even now.Its not beyond us in a physical sense, though the desire and drive to build such monuments may be lacking. Walking on the moon, for example, is every bit the engineering miracle that the pyramids were.

Likewise in philosophy. Torah extends far before the Greeks, as evidenced in the ground, and contains all the prerequisites of a Republican form, albeit designed around familial patriarchs. Zoroaster likewise, came far before the Greeks, to name just two.
While Torah and Zoroastrianism are not irrelevant to Western thought, its a real stretch to argue that they contain "all" the prerequisites of Republican form...as both are deeply patriarchal AND Monarchical in nature. So on this point, I would have to mostly disagree with your assertion.

In part, that is true.
I have often said that an American Conservative's conscience should rightly be formed by civil-libertariansim in friendly opposition to the Judeo-Christian Ethic... And it is through that prism that reason can be applied.

But let's not forget which one of those two inherently marks the culture - It is ethos that forms a society, and makes it governable. not reason. Law is a function of ethic, more so that reason. We could debate this point ad infinitum, but I would argue that I fall more on the spectrum of believing law arises out of utilitarianism...though it clearly advances and is enhanced by ethics and reason and cannot exist independent of these traits.

In that we agree, most profoundly, to the extent it can be done.
 :beer:

And that.
 :beer:

Well stated...very well stated. Kudos and  :beer:to you in return!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 12:02:28 am by Mesaclone »
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline jpsb

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #201 on: September 22, 2018, 12:11:47 am »
--------------------------------
So America is the greatest ever???
Reflect on these a moment.
* Representative Governance in the form of a Republic or Democracy (Pericles and Solon).
* Geometry, which showed the creation of structure in 3-dimensi space (Euclid and Pythagoras).
* History, a timeline of the past identifying place and person (Herodotus and Thucydides).
* Stories reflecting the experiences of Man in the form of the:
   #Novel (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey),
   #Drama (such as the Comedies of Aristophanes or the Tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles),
   #Poetry (Pindar).
* Architecture, including the Acropolis and Parthenon.
* Logic and Philosophy (Plato and Aristotle).
* Science, among them:
   #Botany which measured the economic importance of plant life; the catalyst for formal Agriculture,
   #Biology which determined the life span of living organisms,
   #Medicine which identified and sought the cure of disease, leading to Surgery,
   #Physics which measured energy, force and motion within mature.
These are a few of the creations from the Greeks of Athens, Corinth, Thebes
and the rest; spanning dozens of pages in the Britannica.
Humility not hubris is the prerequisite for reflection and learning; understanding that we are mere
dwarfs who understand what we do because of the legacy of knowledge and wisdom created by the Giants of Antiquity who preceded us and upon whose shoulders we stand!!!

It should be pointed out that the Greeks "borrowed" quite a lot from the Egyptians.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #202 on: September 22, 2018, 12:25:11 am »
You should stop by our home when we're drinking our morning coffee and reviewing your late night spewing.  We feel zero shame over our snot laughing.  In fact, we share it and the reasons with rational people across the District. 

And we ALL thank you.   88devil   888high58888
That is damning criticism from your personalities. 88sorry88
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 12:27:06 am by Once-Ler »

Offline Emjay

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #203 on: September 22, 2018, 01:27:41 am »
Emjay,
Corbe has gone into full petulant troll mode so its futile trying to have a discussion with him. Some get angry when they've lost an argument...some disappear from the board and presumably sulk...some engage in ranting and diatribes...Corbe trolls.

When he emerges from his butt healing phase, rational discussion will once again be possible. As for Absalom, seems more like a kid who just studied a small section on ancient history...ran to Wiki to get a list of ancient achievements...and then slapped them into a post in which only a few of the items he used were salient to the discussion. 

You are a clear and reasonable thinker and I enjoy nearly everything you write. Keep doing what you do and know that most here greatly enjoy you.

@Emjay

@Mesaclone   Thank you so much.  I appreciate everything you write and it restores at least part of my faith on the odd assorted group of humanity gathered here.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Emjay

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #204 on: September 22, 2018, 01:31:28 am »
Emjay, what the heck is all that?  Wow.

Nothing but @corbe being corbe and me trying really hard not to kick his butt.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline corbe

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #205 on: September 22, 2018, 01:35:17 am »
    It seems like only yesterday @Emjay that I was your favorite, now, of all times, with my ol lady in rehab you're going to throw me under the bus.  You Trumpers never cease to amaze me at how low your loyalty quotient really is.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #206 on: September 22, 2018, 01:37:28 am »
Nothing but @corbe being corbe and me trying really hard not to kick his butt.

OK, we all need out butts kicked every now and then.

Offline corbe

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #207 on: September 22, 2018, 01:41:19 am »
   Et Tu @Sanguine I'll go back over to huffpo where I share a commonality.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #208 on: September 22, 2018, 01:45:25 am »
   Et Tu @Sanguine I'll go back over to huffpo where I share a commonality.

No, I can't have it said I drove anyone to HuffPo. 

 0052

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #209 on: September 22, 2018, 01:46:35 am »
   Et Tu @Sanguine I'll go back over to huffpo where I share a commonality.
Even though @Emjay tried very hard, and IMHO actually succeeded in every way measurable, to not kick your ass?  You also lack gratitude @corbe

Offline corbe

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #210 on: September 22, 2018, 01:54:00 am »
   @Once-Ler
   Deep down @Emjay is still a Texas Woman and they scare the $hit out of me, sometimes.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Online roamer_1

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #211 on: September 22, 2018, 03:36:20 am »
As was American society, particularly in the South, at the time of the Constitution's signing. While the excesses of 18th century America do not reach the levels of Greek and Roman society, it should not be disregarded that, though ours was a "class" rather than a "caste" driven system, it involved an underclass of slaves and wage serfs.

@Mesaclone

I will return the volley on this a bit, though I accept your point. But in that acceptance, two things should be remembered:

Firstly, a class system is inherently more fluid than a caste system, though ours was a hybrid of both to start with... Free men being class-born, and undesirables being caste-born. Putting the racism of that aside for a moment (not to ignore it), class was an extraordinary new thing, creditable largely to the rise of the English middle class - A thing the elitists have tried to stifle ever since, it having trounced feudalism, which is the last caste system that gave the elites their due.

Which brings me to my foremost point, in that:
Because of this weird eclectic mix... The Anglo-Celtic Common Law, The Judeo-Christian Ethic, the rise of class over caste... Because of the confluence of these things, it became incumbent upon the governments of both the British and (especially) the Yanks, to finally put their money where their mouths were, and to defend at last the premise that all men are created equal in the sight of God, and that He alone has endowed them with inalienable rights...

The rough start be damned... If there is one thing that has sprung uniquely from the more Protestant strains of the West, it is that one insurmountable statement, pealing forth like thunder, echoing down the halls of history - And that, despite all the claims otherwise, is very profound - As profound as any other thing -  and creditable to Britain and even more, to America. There simply is not an argument otherwise.

Quote
[Pyramids, 3 sisters of Baalbek...]
Its not beyond us in a physical sense [...]

Yes in fact, it is. We have no means by which to construct cyclopean architecture, nor the means to quarry, move, or erect such massive stones. Not to mention the remarkable precision of fit. We cannot do it.

Quote
[...]
though the desire and drive to build such monuments may be lacking. Walking on the moon, for example, is every bit the engineering miracle that the pyramids were.

Accepted... to the point that it can be, not knowing how they did what they did... Even so, walking on the moon is a tremendous feat.

Quote
While Torah and Zoroastrianism are not irrelevant to Western thought, its a real stretch to argue that they contain "all" the prerequisites of Republican form...as both are deeply patriarchal AND Monarchical in nature. So on this point, I would have to mostly disagree with your assertion.

To be specific, I gave that value to Torah, and not to Zoroaster. And I will challenge you on that.

Firstly, Torah was given without a king, and YHWH expressly told them they would regret it when they asked for one.

And a patriarchate need not be a bad thing - Families within Houses, Houses within Clans, Clans within Tribes... Governance at the gate by judicial elders (county seat, appeal outside of the patriarchal structure), a supreme appellate court in the Sanhedrin (and lastly the King)... That is Representative Republic in form, if not like to our own, still very familiar, to include election, to a degree, as needed. My own family runs quite the same way, and historically, at least in the Northern Tribes, this is the most natural form of governance.


Offline jafo2010

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #212 on: September 22, 2018, 03:44:13 am »
The president of the USA has every right to declassify anything he deems appropriate.  Anyone standing in the way of his order should be immediately terminated.  That includes Wray, who I think is a POS, Rosenstein, who I consider a traitor, and Sessions, who I consider the swamp's inside man.

Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff and the other dummy that signed this document combined are not worth a good BM!

Offline libertybele

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #213 on: September 22, 2018, 10:55:57 am »
The president of the USA has every right to declassify anything he deems appropriate.  Anyone standing in the way of his order should be immediately terminated.  That includes Wray, who I think is a POS, Rosenstein, who I consider a traitor, and Sessions, who I consider the swamp's inside man.

Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff and the other dummy that signed this document combined are not worth a good BM!

You have that exactly right.  By the way, welcome to TBR.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Emjay

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #214 on: September 22, 2018, 04:31:39 pm »
    It seems like only yesterday @Emjay that I was your favorite, now, of all times, with my ol lady in rehab you're going to throw me under the bus.  You Trumpers never cease to amaze me at how low your loyalty quotient really is.

Believe me, @corbe if I didn't have a soft spot for you, you would have seen my dark side way before this.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Absalom

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #215 on: September 23, 2018, 05:00:59 am »
Emjay,
Corbe has gone into full petulant troll mode so its futile trying to have a discussion with him. Some get angry when they've lost an argument...some disappear from the board and presumably sulk...some engage in ranting and diatribes...Corbe trolls.

When he emerges from his butt healing phase, rational discussion will once again be possible. As for Absalom, seems more like a kid who just studied a small section on ancient history...ran to Wiki to get a list of ancient achievements...and then slapped them into a post in which only a few of the items he used were salient to the discussion. 

You are a clear and reasonable thinker and I enjoy nearly everything you write. Keep doing what you do and know that most here greatly enjoy you.

@Emjay
-----------------------------
After my bye-bye, <Nope>, predictably wouldn't let go.
Thought better of you given your reasonable initial comments but obviously
you couldn't restrain yourself. Apparently, you two have a twin persona.
For the record, I'm approaching 80 and lectured in Classics for an extended
period at Trinity College, Dublin. It's in Europe.
There my appreciation for the achievements of the founders of western civilization
was developed, after lengthy reflection.
But stay pure and enlightened; as lead drummers in the "We are the Greatest"
marching band!!!


@Absalom, we have some very opinionated and passionate members here.  Sometimes that passion gets in our way and we don't always express ourselves in the best way possible, but we do ask that members not make personal insults.  Personal insults shut down communication and redirects the conversation into unproductive sniping. The Mods don't always catch them, so please be encouraged to report comments that cross that line.

I appreciate your well-though out comments and point of view.

 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 01:29:45 pm by Mod2 »

Offline Absalom

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #216 on: September 23, 2018, 05:38:17 am »
It should be pointed out that the Greeks "borrowed" quite a lot from the Egyptians.
--------------------------------
Borrowed specifically what (description, date and location)???

Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #217 on: September 26, 2018, 02:06:34 am »
The president of the USA has every right to declassify anything he deems appropriate.  Anyone standing in the way of his order should be immediately terminated.  That includes Wray, who I think is a POS, Rosenstein, who I consider a traitor, and Sessions, who I consider the swamp's inside man.

Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff and the other dummy that signed this document combined are not worth a good BM!


We all agree, and VOTE OUT as many RINOS as we can.  Grassley, McConnell=Kentucky, Collins=Maine, Murkowski=Alaska.  I have no idea what is wrong with SESSIONS,,L Graham, gave TRUMP a warning that if he removed Sessions, he would have hell to pay, as NONE OF CONGRESS WOULD VOTE FOR ANY OF HIS POLICY'S.  VOTE OUT AS MANY RINO"s as we can. NO, rino incumbents.
So  president TRUMP, is doing what he can with this handicap hanging over his head. Keeping us safe & prosperous, till we get in MORE REAL REPUBLICANS who have his steel b@lls!  Did you hear the U.N. speech ?  Magnificent, brave!

Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #218 on: September 26, 2018, 02:08:46 am »
--------------------------------
Borrowed specifically what (description, date and location)???


How about you stay in 2018?  magapill.com

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2018, 02:17:12 am »

How about you stay in 2018?  magapill.com

Those who fail to remember history are doomed to forever repeat it.  It's like the Bill Murry movie, Groundhog's Day, only worse.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #220 on: September 26, 2018, 02:22:32 am »
Those who fail to remember history are doomed to forever repeat it.  It's like the Bill Murry movie, Groundhog's Day, only worse.


lol We are already IN IT.  REPEATING COMMUNISM,  in our country by democrats, & those who want to control us.
Socialism. I would rather that poster post what happens to people who support socialism & communism from the past. 
Not back to ancient times.  I could support that post, not a history lesson from B.C. 

Did you even read that list?  PLATO.  Nothing to do about repeating events.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 02:25:15 am by LegalAmerican »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...
« Reply #221 on: September 26, 2018, 02:51:14 am »
I forgot the other part:  Those who DO remember history are forced to repeat it by the fools who forget.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: