Author Topic: We Must Fight Back  (Read 4938 times)

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2018, 01:45:40 pm »
@INVAR

I do not think they are willing, because to them - being allies hinges on whether someone has sufficient fealty and affords accolades to Trump.   The contempt and ridicule they have flung upon the very principles we refuse to abandon for political power's sake has been as vicious if not moreso than we get from avowed Leftists.  Some going so far as to insist that Conservative principles can never win a national election, therefore we need to abandon them and go Populist - even when it's just liberalism in disguise.

I see less and less common ground between us as time is going on, and the trust necessary to go forward together is no longer there.

The damage is done and I do not know what it will take, if ever - to restore that trust.

You are taking the comments of some of the more extreme Trump supporters and ascribing them to everyone who supports Trump.  In other words, your "they/them" is too broad.  Just as there are degrees/variations of opinions among those who detest Trump, the same kind of variation exists among those who support them.  But that's what tends to happen in these debates -- not just out in the broader public but here.  One person on one side says something stupid/offensive, and everyone on the other side leaps on what one statement as proof of what the "other side" thinks.  It isn't.  It is proof of what the utterer said, but others on his "side" may actually disagree with that statement quite strongly.  But since it is easier to focus on the worst argument made by the other side rather than the best...people tend to do exactly that.

I support Trump, but I think the guy who wrote this article is an idiot, and I despise in particular his argument that conservative economic principles should be abandoned.  The strangest thing about his article is that he said Republicans/conservatives should abandon "tax cuts", while ignoring that Trump just past a huge one.  It's a nonsensical argument.

Point is...we should be careful about lumping into a single sack everyone on the "other side".

Offline INVAR

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2018, 03:00:06 pm »
@INVAR

You are taking the comments of some of the more extreme Trump supporters and ascribing them to everyone who supports Trump.  In other words, your "they/them" is too broad. 

Perhaps.  But it goes both ways and as far as online discussion boards go - the sentiments are pretty much as described.  Less in the meat world, but even there the 'with us or against us' mindset is now becoming more common.  Lost several friends and acquaintances I knew for decades during the last election, simply because I would not support or vote for Trump.  So - broad brushes may not be applicable in all cases, but it's a growing trend in our highly polarized state.

I support Trump, but I think the guy who wrote this article is an idiot, and I despise in particular his argument that conservative economic principles should be abandoned.  The strangest thing about his article is that he said Republicans/conservatives should abandon "tax cuts", while ignoring that Trump just past a huge one.  It's a nonsensical argument.

Well, if the online forums and social media comments are a barometer of public sentiment, then Conservative principles are in-fact being repudiated and Socialism's varying forms are being argued for and justified by those who would describe themselves as ardent Trump supporters... online.

Well, even one fella I know in the meat world who is a lifelong Republican is now arguing with me about abandoning everything from the abortion issue and tax cuts to deficit spending ( he's big on the military getting everything it wants). Like some here, he is tickled by Trump driving the media and Left nuts and as long as he does that, he doesn't care if creating a fairness doctrine for the Internet happens.  He too thinks the internet should be regulated.

He gives no thought any longer to what happens when the worm turns - because he says it cannot get any worse for Republicans than it was before Trump.  So the idea that a regulated internet would be used to suppress ideas, he thinks is no different than what we have now from the media.  Payback - it's all he wants right now.

So, given my own small circle of interaction both online and in the meat world, I'm not quite as generous as you are in the benefit of the doubt department.

Point is...we should be careful about lumping into a single sack everyone on the "other side".

And yet we are being told, to 'pick a side or get run over'.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2018, 03:28:49 pm »
Perhaps.  But it goes both ways and as far as online discussion boards go - the sentiments are pretty much as described.  Less in the meat world, but even there the 'with us or against us' mindset is now becoming more common.  Lost several friends and acquaintances I knew for decades during the last election, simply because I would not support or vote for Trump.  So - broad brushes may not be applicable in all cases, but it's a growing trend in our highly polarized state.

Well, if the online forums and social media comments are a barometer of public sentiment, then Conservative principles are in-fact being repudiated and Socialism's varying forms are being argued for and justified by those who would describe themselves as ardent Trump supporters... online.

Well, even one fella I know in the meat world who is a lifelong Republican is now arguing with me about abandoning everything from the abortion issue and tax cuts to deficit spending ( he's big on the military getting everything it wants). Like some here, he is tickled by Trump driving the media and Left nuts and as long as he does that, he doesn't care if creating a fairness doctrine for the Internet happens.  He too thinks the internet should be regulated.

He gives no thought any longer to what happens when the worm turns - because he says it cannot get any worse for Republicans than it was before Trump.  So the idea that a regulated internet would be used to suppress ideas, he thinks is no different than what we have now from the media.  Payback - it's all he wants right now.

So, given my own small circle of interaction both online and in the meat world, I'm not quite as generous as you are in the benefit of the doubt department.

And yet we are being told, to 'pick a side or get run over'.
You're right -- it does go both ways.  I'm saying that we should be aware of that, and try not to do it ourselves.  We each should be judged on our own opinions as we state them -- not assumed to share all the beliefs of someone with whom we may only agree on one narrow issue.

If you don't want everyone who opposes Trump to be considered a leftists, then don't assume everyone who supports him opposes conservatism.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2018, 04:23:24 pm »

If you don't want everyone who opposes Trump to be considered a leftists, then don't assume everyone who supports him opposes conservatism.



IOW, don't be a bleeping idiot! 

Stop speaking in code, @Maj. Bill Martin  happy77
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2018, 04:39:12 pm »

IOW, don't be a bleeping idiot! 

Stop speaking in code, @Maj. Bill Martin  happy77

No offense meant, but I don't see how to support Tump and remain true to Conservatism.

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2018, 04:45:11 pm »
No offense meant, but I don't see how to support Tump and remain true to Conservatism.

You support him because he's the only thing protecting us from full-blown Socialism.

A Dark Age for the USA that would last at least a generation.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2018, 05:05:09 pm »
You support him because he's the only thing protecting us from full-blown Socialism.

A Dark Age for the USA that would last at least a generation.

I disagree entirely. Conservatism is what protects against socialism... And that full-throated and pure, as things are now... Nothing less will save it. Not watered down conservatism, and certainly not the liberalism that is called 'conservative' in the White House today.

Offline INVAR

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2018, 05:06:22 pm »
You support him because he's the only thing protecting us from full-blown Socialism.

A Dark Age for the USA that would last at least a generation.

Horseshit.

You guys are just accepting and embracing a slower-acting version of Socialism under a kinder-gentler Statism that you are fine with as long as Trump delivers it for you.

You end up in the same place as the Democrats are taking everyone, just slower and more incrementally while you lie to yourselves that you are Conservatives.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2018, 05:14:11 pm »
I disagree entirely. Conservatism is what protects against socialism... And that full-throated and pure, as things are now... Nothing less will save it. Not watered down conservatism, and certainly not the liberalism that is called 'conservative' in the White House today.

Come on, man.

I disagree entirely. (surprise)

Your brand of Conservatism can't win elections.  You don't win in 2016, you have a leftist, activist Supreme Court.

You get a left, activist SCOTUS, you lose 'EVERYTHING' your brand of Conservatism believes in.

....then, who's your arch villain?

You're smarter than this, @roamer_1     :shrug:

And let's get something else clear here:   all the moonbats that think Ted Cruz doesn't need Pres. Trump's help vs. O'Rourke.

The ONLY reason Cruz is in 'trouble' is because the media hate him.  They hate his Conservatism (cough-cough)

And the ONLY proven opponent the media cannot take down is Donald J. Trump.

I beginning to fear for my President's safety.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 05:18:02 pm by DCPatriot »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2018, 05:18:52 pm »
Come on, man.

I disagree entirely. (surprise)

Your brand of Conservatism can't win elections.  You don't win in 2016, you have a leftist, activist Supreme Court.

You get a left, activist SCOTUS, you lose 'EVERYTHING' your brand of Conservatism believes in.

....then, who's your arch villain?

You're smarter than this, @roamer_1     :shrug:

@DCPatriot
No... If that is so, we are already lost. All you are doing at this point is arranging the deck chairs and arguing over the party favors... And the band plays on...

'My brand' of Conservatism IS Conservatism by definition... Based upon principle things. First things. Immovable truth. When truth is rejected, what is left is self evident.

Offline ABX

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2018, 05:20:31 pm »
Horseshit.

You guys are just accepting and embracing a slower-acting version of Socialism under a kinder-gentler Statism that you are fine with as long as Trump delivers it for you.

You end up in the same place as the Democrats are taking everyone, just slower and more incrementally while you lie to yourselves that you are Conservatives.

Here is an interesting case study. Look at many of the policies of Bill Clinton in relation to today. Republicans today are basically Clinton Democrats of the 90s. There is nothing in the Contract with America that the party is currently standing for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_with_America

Many have the defeatist attitude that 'Conservativism can't win' yet the Contract with America, running on true Conservative (versus populist/liberal) values gave us the biggest win (house/senate flip) in history.


Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2018, 05:24:51 pm »
And let's get something else clear here:   all the moonbats that think Ted Cruz doesn't need Pres. Trump's help vs. O'Rourke.

The ONLY reason Cruz is in 'trouble' is because the media hate him.  They hate his Conservatism (cough-cough)

I would posit that IF Cruz is in trouble, it is because of Tump, or because of his backpeddling since he signed on with Tump. But no doubt, one way or the other, when he wins by 10 points, Tump will take yet another victory lap.

Quote
And the ONLY proven opponent the media cannot take down is Donald J. Trump.

This messianic bullshit just naturally has to stop.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2018, 05:27:58 pm »
Many have the defeatist attitude that 'Conservativism can't win' yet the Contract with America, running on true Conservative (versus populist/liberal) values gave us the biggest win (house/senate flip) in history.

And not very long ago at all, the Conservative TEA Party overturned state houses and governorships in one massive and record-breaking season, all over the country

Online DCPatriot

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2018, 05:32:35 pm »
@DCPatriot
No... If that is so, we are already lost. All you are doing at this point is arranging the deck chairs and arguing over the party favors... And the band plays on...

'My brand' of Conservatism IS Conservatism by definition... Based upon principle things. First things. Immovable truth. When truth is rejected, what is left is self evident.

Who gives a damn how your "brand" of Conservatism will be defined in the history books?

You'll be with that 1/3 of Colonists who could give two shits about King George taxing his tea.  If it don't affect me personally, screw it.

...a group of staunch, uncompromising Conservative right-wingers who withheld votes and support for the Republican Party because their guy was forever a bridesmaid and never the bride.

....looking at Hillary Clinton and her corruption as just desserts on all of us because .... because your guy was unceremoniously cast aside.

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline INVAR

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2018, 05:34:32 pm »
Your brand of Conservatism can't win elections. 

That is what all Liberals,Statists and Socialists would have us believe.

The fact is , you hold True Conservatism in the same kind of contempt that they do.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline ABX

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2018, 05:43:57 pm »
Who gives a damn how your "brand" of Conservatism will be defined in the history books?

You'll be with that 1/3 of Colonists who could give two shits about King George taxing his tea.  If it don't affect me personally, screw it.

...a group of staunch, uncompromising Conservative right-wingers who withheld votes and support for the Republican Party because their guy was forever a bridesmaid and never the bride.

....looking at Hillary Clinton and her corruption as just desserts on all of us because .... because your guy was unceremoniously cast aside.

Ironically, it is just the opposite of your example. It isn't 'Conservatives' who are telling us just to 'accept' whatever the King does. It is the populists who are telling us we have to stand behind the King's team because he is waiving the same colors as us. Conservatives are taking the unpopular opinion that what is wrong is wrong, no matter what letter is behind the name. Redcoats have become Redhats.

Offline INVAR

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2018, 05:49:24 pm »
Ironically, it is just the opposite of your example. It isn't 'Conservatives' who are telling us just to 'accept' whatever the King does. It is the populists who are telling us we have to stand behind the King's team because he is waiving the same colors as us. Conservatives are taking the unpopular opinion that what is wrong is wrong, no matter what letter is behind the name. Redcoats have become Redhats.

Redhats, you mean Tory Loyalists.

They are all just willing to trade one monarch for another, so long as whomever they pledge fealty to gives them what they think they want and to punish those they hate.

They held in contempt the very principles the Founders stood for and were willing to be ostracized and risked everything for.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2018, 05:49:53 pm »
Who gives a damn how your "brand" of Conservatism will be defined in the history books?

You'll be with that 1/3 of Colonists who could give two shits about King George taxing his tea.  If it don't affect me personally, screw it.

...a group of staunch, uncompromising Conservative right-wingers who withheld votes and support for the Republican Party because their guy was forever a bridesmaid and never the bride.

....looking at Hillary Clinton and her corruption as just desserts on all of us because .... because your guy was unceremoniously cast aside.

@DCPatriot

My guy has nothing to do with it. Unlike y'all, 'my guy' is nothing but a vessel. Y'all keep draggin that out like we're butthurt. Not even close.

It is the message that matters. It is the way of doing things. And that way, and those things, ARE TRUE.

Right now, there is *NOTHING* left of those truths. Not a whit of it. Which means y'all are trying to fix liberal lies with more liberal lies. In your desperation, y'all have rejected the right way - The ONLY way - The very hard way... to run to your prophets with itching ears. That way, as history attests, is always wrong, and leads to utter failure.

That is why I won't go your way.

Offline INVAR

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2018, 05:55:25 pm »
...a group of staunch, uncompromising Conservative right-wingers who withheld votes and support for the Republican Party because their guy was forever a bridesmaid and never the bride.

No, wrong.  It is because your party is a treasonous whore and you chose an adulterous lifelong NYC Liberal Democrat to carry your flag while telling you what you wanted to hear.

Damn straight we withheld our votes from your party and person.  They do not represent our core, but rather that of the ideological enemy of everything liberty requires to subsist upon.

You're stuck playing fantasy political football - and treating all this like a silly sporting event where you get to cheerlead your QB and rant against your foes in the hopes you can sing 'We Are The Campions" at the top of your lungs while screaming that the rest of us are 'Losers'. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2018, 05:56:30 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin

If you don't want everyone who opposes Trump to be considered a leftists, then don't assume everyone who supports him opposes conservatism.

Good post!

The only issue is, 1/2 of us, myself included, would have had nothing to say for that last 2-1/2 years.
 :cool:

Seriously, you're right, we all have varying degrees of opinions on all these issues, as we are individuals.
We are all way too eager to categorize each other when there is dissent or disagreement.

Then again @DCPatriot could be right, and it was all code.....
LOL



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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2018, 05:58:51 pm »
I'm going to repeat this one more time.

When you go to war you go with the Army you have not the one you wish you had!  Anyone who thinks we are not at war in this country is seriously deluded IMHO.
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Offline ABX

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2018, 06:03:38 pm »
I'm going to repeat this one more time.

When you go to war you go with the Army you have not the one you wish you had!  Anyone who thinks we are not at war in this country is seriously deluded IMHO.

Some people are fighting a different war.

To some, the war is between people who wear red shirts and blue shirts, between those with a R behind their name or a D behind their name.

To others, the war is between collectivists/statists and liberty.

To others, the war is about the very soul of the nation.

Just because someone isn't fighting the war you choose doesn't mean they aren't fighting a war. It is almost the height of arrogance to tell others they must fight your war for you when they are fighting their own. Who are you (I'm not directing this personally at you, but in general) to tell someone else what must be important to them and what battle they must fight? Make your case of why you think your war is more important but don't tell others they aren't fighting just because they aren't putting on your jersey.

Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2018, 06:03:50 pm »
Who gives a damn how your "brand" of Conservatism will be defined in the history books?

You'll be with that 1/3 of Colonists who could give two shits about King George taxing his tea.  If it don't affect me personally, screw it.

...a group of staunch, uncompromising Conservative right-wingers who withheld votes and support for the Republican Party because their guy was forever a bridesmaid and never the bride.

....looking at Hillary Clinton and her corruption as just desserts on all of us because .... because your guy was unceremoniously cast aside.


Yup.

The argument over doctrinal purity of a word - 'Conservatism' - excusing jettisoning Everything to sit on the sidelines, makes as much sense as being an American soldier in Germany at the end of WWII, and refusing help from a company of Stalin's guys because they weren't the right type of guys.


Just mind-numbing.
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2018, 06:05:05 pm »
Ironically, it is just the opposite of your example. It isn't 'Conservatives' who are telling us just to 'accept' whatever the King does. It is the populists who are telling us we have to stand behind the King's team because he is waiving the same colors as us. Conservatives are taking the unpopular opinion that what is wrong is wrong, no matter what letter is behind the name. Redcoats have become Redhats.

You're like the poor guy that follows his GPS right into a river.  Can't tell you shit.

Go in peace.  Pulleeze!     :laugh:
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: We Must Fight Back
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2018, 06:10:53 pm »

Yup.

The argument over doctrinal purity of a word - 'Conservatism' - excusing jettisoning Everything to sit on the sidelines, makes as much sense as being an American soldier in Germany at the end of WWII, and refusing help from a company of Stalin's guys because they weren't the right type of guys.


Just mind-numbing.


It isn't the purity of a word. Conservatism is a defined set of factional principles, based primarily in the (Goldwater) civil-libertarian faction. But what Reagan observed is that those factional principles interlock - without them all, we will fail.