Author Topic: Another Prominent Anti-Trump Republican Just Went Down In Minnesota. Here's Why This Keeps Happening  (Read 22337 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Yes.  Yes they are ... and always have. @Maj. Bill Martin  Not only faith in the Judea-Christian God, but faith according to their rules.

@Right_in_Virginia

 :amen: :amen: :amen:
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits

That's why I asked this question in the first place, because it does not match up with my own observations in life.
Quote
But my brother, who is a good, moral person with a well-developed moral code, has been an atheist since his teens. 



@Maj. Bill Martin

Blasphemy!
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,904
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
@Maj. Bill Martin
No... The Bible itself describes good folk who have never heard the Gospel. But, for the purposes of a political forum, The emphasis should be put upon the Judeo-Christian Ethic... The American sense of right and wrong.

You will find that as that sense erodes, so too will the general tenor of health in this nation. There cannot be multiple systems of right and wrong (moral relativism), and yet remain as a people. There literally can be no mechanical means (read LE and Jurisprudence) to enforce 'right and wrong' if no one agrees upon what that is.

...As we already can see. EVERY problem infesting this nation is a matter of morality, or moral collision.

And finally, be careful what you wish for - We live in a country where our sense of right and wrong, like our sense of rights, comes from on high, above the courts of men.

When that is no longer the case, who then will determine your rights, and your sense of right and wrong? And just within the course of my lifetime, our experiment in exactly that, has wrought every bit of the illness our nation suffers from.

Whether you like it or not, we are rooted in the Judeo-Christian ethic, and cutting us off there-from is nothing other than death to this nation.

None of that has anything to do with the specific point I was addressing with @musiclady .  You are talking about the general benefits a belief in God has on a nation as a whole.  I was addressing a very specific statement that pertains to individuals:

Quote
How does an agnostic or atheist even talk about the concept of "evil?"   It's just a made-up concept.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 06:21:19 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
But if that is correct, then there shouldn't be any way for someone who is agnostic or atheist (or believes in anything other than the Judeo-Christian God) to have a good moral code.  Yet, you clearly acknowledged that such people can have a good moral code.  So your explanation doesn't address the question.

I believe it answers it specifically.   A person who is an atheist or agnostic can have a good moral code without recognizing that there is no good apart from God.  As I mentioned earlier, we are ALL created in God's image and for all but the most severely disturbed, that comes with a conscience.

It is that God-given conscience, acknowledged or not, that gives them any sense of right and wrong they possess.

I believe we all know people who are agnostic or atheist who do have a moral code.  They just don't accept where it actually comes from.


Quote
Yes and no.

Yes, in that it is an explanation for why someone who doesn't believe in God may live a hedonistic, amoral/immoral existence.

No, in that it doesn't explain how an agnostic/atheist can have a good moral code, which you've already acknowledged can happen.

And just to be clear on this, I am a Christian, and consider myself to have a good moral code even though I sometimes fail to live up to it as well as I would wish.  But my brother, who is a good, moral person with a well-developed moral code, has been an atheist since his teens.  That's why I asked this question in the first place, because it does not match up with my own observations in life.

I would say that an honest belief in God makes it more likely that someone will have a good moral code, and generally live by it.  But it is certainly possible for those who don't believe in God to do the same.

I have said that several times, so we agree.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,894
None of that has anything to do with the specific point I was addressing with @musiclady .  You are talking about the general benefits a belief in God has on a nation as a whole.  I was addressing a very specific statement that pertains to individuals:

Let me bring it back around then.
I have had this exact conversation more than once... And what is odd in the conclusions drawn from that, IMHO: Though atheists tend to espouse a doctrinal unity (via 'book learning' as it were),  their perception of that doctrine varies according to culture...

A western American atheist is different than an eastern American atheist, which is again, different from a Brit, or one from France, and etc.

In every case where I have had this conversation, the atheist must finally admit his sense of right and wrong is borrowed from either an exposure to an ethic in his culture, or the antithesis thereof (leading to the conclusion that the thesis is of value).

Which brings us once again to the moral sense of a people, and not the person... Because the person is not forged in a vacuum. He is necessarily infused with an ethical sense by his cultural norms.

There is no moral vacuum.
 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 07:13:50 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Let me bring it back around then.
I have had this exact conversation more than once... And what is odd in the conclusions drawn from that, IMHO: Though atheists tend to espouse a doctrinal unity (via 'book learning' as it were),  their perception of that doctrine varies according to culture...

A western American atheist is different than an eastern American atheist, which is again, different from a Brit, or one from France, and etc.

In every case where I have had this conversation, the atheist must finally admit his sense of right and wrong is borrowed from either an exposure to an ethic in his culture, or the antithesis thereof (leading to the conclusion that the thesis is of value).

Which brings us once again to the moral sense of a people, and not the person... Because the person is not forged in a vacuum. He is necessarily infused with an ethical sense by his cultural norms.

There is no moral vacuum.

 goopo
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Which brings us once again to the moral sense of a people, and not the person... Because the person is not forged in a vacuum. He is necessarily infused with an ethical sense by his cultural norms.

There is no moral vacuum.

BINGO.

Saw this firsthand living in India.  Their cultural morality is stupefying to a Westerner.  I mean, when you watch an old woman beaten to near death by her own sons because she is a widow and her shadow touched them - and this was said to be a good and righteous thing to do ... it blows the mind.  Same with how they treat the Dalits and Adhi Andrha - starving humans begging in the streets while exceedingly fat cows and water buffalo adorned with flowers and ornaments are revered and walk the streets. 

And then there is their sense of 'justice', which is totally based on caste.  Being ripped off by a shopkeeper or a bank - as a Christian or a Dalit - you will go to jail after a beating for complaining about it, because a lower caste may not dispute someone who is from a higher caste.  Then there's the child brides and dowry still practiced there.  Where 8 year olds are married to forty-somethings.  All of that considered a moral, and righteous ethic - because the bible had no presence or influence in their pagan society whatsoever and their society is structured upon a morality system we int he West would see as evil.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,894
BINGO.

Saw this firsthand living in India.  Their cultural morality is stupefying to a Westerner.  I mean, when you watch an old woman beaten to near death by her own sons because she is a widow and her shadow touched them - and this was said to be a good and righteous thing to do ... it blows the mind.  Same with how they treat the Dalits and Adhi Andrha - starving humans begging in the streets while exceedingly fat cows and water buffalo adorned with flowers and ornaments are revered and walk the streets. 

And then there is their sense of 'justice', which is totally based on caste.  Being ripped off by a shopkeeper or a bank - as a Christian or a Dalit - you will go to jail after a beating for complaining about it, because a lower caste may not dispute someone who is from a higher caste.  Then there's the child brides and dowry still practiced there.  Where 8 year olds are married to forty-somethings.  All of that considered a moral, and righteous ethic - because the bible had no presence or influence in their pagan society whatsoever and their society is structured upon a morality system we int he West would see as evil.

That is utterly beyond my ken... There are vestiges of such a thing on the Rez... Some bits and pieces that evade the generally Christian tenor of the people there...

I see these sorts of things in antithesis - using racism as an example, more than caste...
Where I am it is virtually northern white European tribes... Mainly Norwegian, with some Irish and Scots-Irish, Swedes, and a smattering of everybody else... And the Native Americans... There may be some racism toward Native Americans, Blackfeet in particular... But by and large, we stand without the racism that, I can now see, plagued my youth growing up in Chicago.

My uncles, good Christian men, all, are possessed by a virulent hatred of others... Primarily Blacks, but not limited thereto. It has lessened in them, in their elder years, and somewhat due to my BIL, who is black as the ace of spades, but being Costa Rican, entirely without the norms of inner-city American blacks... He is well loved in my greater family, despite the color of his skin, and in my immediate family, regardless of it... Which, as it turns out, is the remarkable distinction.

Growing up as I have, largely right here, in the Northern Rockies, I see the morals of my youth in antithesis - Having been exposed early on, the cultural change moving here caused me to question the verity of that portion of my early youth, which, those not removed therefrom, might not have the ability to ponder, for a plethora of reasons, some of which are very valid. But the western sense of judging the individual merit of the man was what very quickly found acceptance within me.

All that to say, those that remain in the crucible, and also find that disparity of conscience, those are the ones that are the truly remarkable case - And those, following an inerrant path toward the dictates of good conscience are closer, I would think, to what YHWH would have written upon the heart.

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,894
It is that God-given conscience, acknowledged or not, that gives them any sense of right and wrong they possess.

I believe we all know people who are agnostic or atheist who do have a moral code.  They just don't accept where it actually comes from.

In the essence of it, well refined, that is ultimately right.
But in the effect, or even quite possibly only the affect, community serves as the greater impetus (the conscience of a people). Moral sense I think is found first in mimicry. It is when one rises above that infused sense to question further that one may well meet God.

But be that as it may, it serves us well to pay mind to that mimicry. For as I said, the ethic of the people is infused into the person... And to start in the premise that one is infused with the Judeo-Christian Ethic, no matter how well or poorly, starts one from a better position than one might have otherwise have had attributed.

When it was an awful thing to be caught pregnant without marriage, there was far, far less instance of unwed mothers and bastard children... A good example of that ethical norm guiding those who were less encumbered by ethics, as now can be clearly shown.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
In the essence of it, well refined, that is ultimately right.
But in the effect, or even quite possibly only the affect, community serves as the greater impetus (the conscience of a people). Moral sense I think is found first in mimicry. It is when one rises above that infused sense to question further that one may well meet God.

But be that as it may, it serves us well to pay mind to that mimicry. For as I said, the ethic of the people is infused into the person... And to start in the premise that one is infused with the Judeo-Christian Ethic, no matter how well or poorly, starts one from a better position than one might have otherwise have had attributed.

When it was an awful thing to be caught pregnant without marriage, there was far, far less instance of unwed mothers and bastard children... A good example of that ethical norm guiding those who were less encumbered by ethics, as now can be clearly shown.

I completely concur.

While I was referring to the inner reason people without faith can have a moral code, you are presenting the bigger picture of a society whose moral standards affect individual behavior.

And your example is right on.  Even when I was in high school in the 1960's it was shameful for a young woman to be pregnant, and because of that, there were not many pregnancies (none in my class, and abortion was illegal, so no murders either).  By the time my kids were in high school (actually, Jr. High), it was a status symbol to have a baby, and there were a horrific number of young girls who had babies.

The moral standard of society is critical to the survival of that society.

We have lost that in America because we have abandoned our Judeo-Christian roots, and are as a result, swirling the drain.

The only hope we have, IMO, is another Great Awakening, where we are, as a culture, spiritually revived.

If that happens, and I pray it does, there is a chance America will survive.

@roamer_1
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready

The only hope we have, IMO, is another Great Awakening, where we are, as a culture, spiritually revived.

If that happens, and I pray it does, there is a chance America will survive.

If this board is a microcosm of 'Republican' or "conservative thought", then I'm afraid that the notion of a spiritual revival is as eschewed and held in contempt as it is among secular Leftists.

Just took at the contempt, ridicule and disdain over the discussion of moral principles, even by those who self-identify as "Christian".

I think we have fully become a people who now only believe and do that which they think is right in their own eyes.  There is no other standard by which they will allow themselves to be measured, except by whatever the culture or government dictate.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
If this board is a microcosm of 'Republican' or "conservative thought", then I'm afraid that the notion of a spiritual revival is as eschewed and held in contempt as it is among secular Leftists.

Just took at the contempt, ridicule and disdain over the discussion of moral principles, even by those who self-identify as "Christian".

I think we have fully become a people who now only believe and do that which they think is right in their own eyes.  There is no other standard by which they will allow themselves to be measured, except by whatever the culture or government dictate.

Unfortunately, I fear you are right.  :shrug:

This is probably the most balanced forum I've ever been on, and the ridicule I've taken for beliefs that were once accepted and honored, is startling.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Unfortunately, I fear you are right.  :shrug:

This is probably the most balanced forum I've ever been on, and the ridicule I've taken for beliefs that were once accepted and honored, is startling.

@musiclady

Maybe you Thumpers can all get together and elect a Saint? Find a old building with a chimney and release white smoke when you have decided who our new Maximum Leader Who Must Be Obeyed is named?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Unfortunately, I fear you are right.  :shrug:

This is probably the most balanced forum I've ever been on, and the ridicule I've taken for beliefs that were once accepted and honored, is startling.

Not just here.

In the meat-world now as well. 

Justification for everything from stealing to adultery.

No one wants to hear about biblical morals, unless they can be used to attack the 'other party'.  If their party and people do it - then they applaud it and say that is what we need, and when lies are pointed out - they say that we need to be lied to in order to keep us safe and keep us voting the right way.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 10:38:43 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 0

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,894
We have lost that in America because we have abandoned our Judeo-Christian roots, and are as a result, swirling the drain.

And that in but a moment, @musiclady ... I long for Mayberry RFD, not out of some allegiance to some old TV show... But because I remember it IRL.

Offline LegalAmerican

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,124
  • Gender: Female
You know what?  I think you're right on all counts because I was bitterly opposed to Trump in the primaries and I changed my opinion of him.

But for a Republican candidate to use that language prior to an election was not just poor taste, it was a death knoll.



Only to other republicans, not to any democrats, who support their people, no matter what. When are conservatives going to get smart?  Who released that recording? and why was there a recording? Focus on illegal act, & stop falling for the DEMON-RATS ploy,,every time!

 Not really against your post, it is the GENERAL attitude by republicans, that get to me.

 They fall for this baloney all the time, so we can say, how "wonderful" and proper we are?  SCREW the country, because a hetero male, talked like a MAN, so lets not vote for him, even that he can do the job. 


Why do conservatives, repeat lock room talk, said in private?  Bush, was illegally recording Trump & egging Trump on, to talk, locker room talk.  It was private and BEFORE he ran for president.  He said,  WOMEN WOULD LET YOU DO THAT IF RICH & FAMOUS.  That is true, but he did not say, he did it, like Bill Clinton did to stewardess, while married to Hildebeast. There was a video on it.  I don't get how people who are supposed to be conservatives,,bash their own party!  Do you ever,,,,hear a DEMOCRAT DO THAT?  You conservatives need to get smarter than a Bear.

Oh......language,,,not meant for YOUR ears. 


Offline LegalAmerican

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,124
  • Gender: Female
@musiclady

Maybe you Thumpers can all get together and elect a Saint? Find a old building with a chimney and release white smoke when you have decided who our new Maximum Leader Who Must Be Obeyed is named?




Excellent!  The people never get it. They think it is about themselves.  Right or wrong?  That is for the final judgement, and human beings are, NOT the judge.  We have a president who is very competent and doing great works, but lets not support him..so they can "feel" superior.  This what is wrong in the country.  The people who have no clue.  They have allowed all kind of evil for decades in America. Now we have a HUMAN BEING in charge and they are "offended' at his language.  That is crazy thinking. This why conservatives rarely win, at anything!

Offline LegalAmerican

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,124
  • Gender: Female
@sneakypete represents the best of the American experiment. The ideal that the founders envisioned; a government that respects individual freedom and liberty to live one’s life according to the individual’s conscience, a life free from coercion by government or by a state church or by society.

 :beer: sneakypete



I agree, I wish all the rest of the people would understand that, SO JUDGMENTAL about a great PRESIDENT!

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 0
Only to other republicans, not to any democrats, who support their people, no matter what. When are conservatives going to get smart? 

Pick your side and support it no matter what zombie thralls.

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits


I agree, I wish all the rest of the people would understand that, SO JUDGMENTAL about a great PRESIDENT!

@LegalAmerican

Thanks! I think there are a lot of us that understand none of this is about ANY "me". It's about the survival of the nation as a free country populated with free people. ONLY a nation populated by free people who are the masters of their own lives can afford to tolerate a fringe element that thinks everything is about THEM and their "god".
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Excellent conversation @INVAR @musiclady @roamer_1 @Maj. Bill Martin  :hands:

Thanks, @Once-Ler .  That's what this place is for.......... conversation.

Too bad so many others just want to shoot daggers at others with no point but to make personal slams.   On this thread I made serious comments about serious thoughts with NO attack on any other Briefer, and what was leveled at me in return was pure venom.

I'm thankful for men like @Maj. Bill Martin , who can disagree civilly and respond to honest responses with honest questions. 

It shouldn't be so rare.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
And that in but a moment, @musiclady ... I long for Mayberry RFD, not out of some allegiance to some old TV show... But because I remember it IRL.

It really existed.  Anyone who says it didn't is trying to rewrite history and deny reality.

When Biblical morality was the underpinning of American society, it was a sweeter place.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,682
Not just here.

In the meat-world now as well. 

Justification for everything from stealing to adultery.

No one wants to hear about biblical morals, unless they can be used to attack the 'other party'.  If their party and people do it - then they applaud it and say that is what we need, and when lies are pointed out - they say that we need to be lied to in order to keep us safe and keep us voting the right way.

Actually, I think there are a higher percentage of people who still hold on to moral and ethical values here on this forum than in most other places.

It's still remarkable and sad to me that we have to defend the concept of honesty and ethical behavior to ANYONE on a Conservative forum.

And it's even more remarkable how quickly this transformation has happened.

Mocked for believing in right and wrong, and that wrong is wrong even if "our side" is doing it?

It's stunning.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
It really existed.  Anyone who says it didn't is trying to rewrite history and deny reality.

When Biblical morality was the underpinning of American society, it was a sweeter place.

<Let's take a little break.>
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 03:09:10 am by Mod5 »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!