Author Topic: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade  (Read 10177 times)

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Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2018, 10:03:45 pm »
Does she have the right to kill that child?

Until viability, yes.  She has the right to control her own body up until the point at which the fetuses separate existence is not merely an exercise in conjecture and maybes. 

Offline Restored

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2018, 10:05:01 pm »
I never said it wasn’t a baby.  And there is a definite difference between a fetus that is 9 months old (ie full-term) and a 5-minute old zygote that was just fertilized.

A 5 minute zygote is not aborted.
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Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2018, 10:07:23 pm »
A 5 minute zygote is not aborted.

It is if the morning-after pill is used. 

Offline Drago

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2018, 10:10:28 pm »
It’s not inconsistent at all. It simply saying that the government cannot interfere with a fundamental right at a point where that interference would be meaningless.
Fundamental right? When was the right to murder a fundamental right?  If the baby is a baby at 24 weeks in 2018 then the baby was a baby at 24 weeks in 1940, so your "viability" argument loses credibility.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2018, 10:11:07 pm »
No she doesn't....a fetus is still a human being...

But with rape she doesn't meet @Bigun definition in post 25  (the emphasis added is mine) @mystery-ak

I'm 100% in favor of a woman being in total control of her reproductive parts but once she has granted someone entry there and another human life results it's a different story.

Offline Restored

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2018, 10:12:15 pm »
It is if the morning-after pill is used.

Yes but you don't know if the abortion occurred. It's not like an abortion in a clinic.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2018, 10:12:54 pm »
A 5 minute zygote is not aborted.

It is with the morning after pill @Restored .... and is not the 100%, no exception pro-life position life is from conception?

Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2018, 10:13:13 pm »
Fundamental right? When was the right to murder a fundamental right?  If the baby is a baby at 24 weeks in 2018 then the baby was a baby at 24 weeks in 1940, so your "viability" argument loses credibility.

Fundamental right to control your own reproductive equipment, to control your own body. 

You can yell and scream “murder” all you want to, but that merely makes you no better than liberals who scream “racism” when they don’t want to debate an issue.

Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2018, 10:13:55 pm »
Yes but you don't know if the abortion occurred. It's not like an abortion in a clinic.

So?  What does knowledge have to do with it?  In relevant terms it is exactly like having an abortion in a clinic   
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 10:19:58 pm by Oceander »

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #109 on: July 09, 2018, 10:15:55 pm »
WORD

"Word" @mystery-ak   You agree "no one has the right to arbitraryly end it. Especially based only on a claim of rape".

What the heck do you mean by based "only" on a claim of rape? 

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #110 on: July 09, 2018, 10:18:26 pm »
Yes but you don't know if the abortion occurred. It's not like an abortion in a clinic.

 :facepalm2:

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #111 on: July 09, 2018, 10:20:06 pm »
"Word" @mystery-ak   ...

What the heck do you mean by based "only" on a claim of rape?

I'll explain that one for you.  Until a claim has been confirmed, it is only a claim.  Unfortunately, there have been many cases of unscrupulous women accusing men of rape when it was not the case.  Remember "Mattress Girl"?

Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #112 on: July 09, 2018, 10:22:48 pm »
I'll explain that one for you.  Until a claim has been confirmed, it is only a claim.  Unfortunately, there have been many cases of unscrupulous women accusing men of rape when it was not the case.  Remember "Mattress Girl"?

What does this have to do with anything?  Are you alleging that all “claims” of rape are false, and that no woman has ever gotten pregnant as a result of being raped?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #113 on: July 09, 2018, 10:28:22 pm »
What does this have to do with anything?  Are you alleging that all “claims” of rape are false, and that no woman has ever gotten pregnant as a result of being raped?

Good grief, you need to get a handle on the snark.  No, @Right_in_Virginia was accusing @Bigun of being misogynist because he said "rape claim" instead "rape".  Clear?

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #114 on: July 09, 2018, 10:30:42 pm »
Are you saying that the person resulting from the rape should endure being killed?

No, that's not what I am saying.  I'm saying that, as between the woman and the State, it is the woman who has the right to decide.  It was her body that was violated, for crying out loud!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 10:31:33 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Neverdul

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #115 on: July 09, 2018, 10:35:30 pm »
That isn’t a red herring.  If conception has taken place, that’s an abortion.

I’ve seen many of the opinions of quite a few pro-lifers that the “morning after” pill is an abortion and should be outlawed as well, even in cases of rape. I’ve also seen that extended to the “pill”, i.e. oral contraceptives because of the way the pill works – a conception can occur however the hormones in the pill will prevent implantation of the fertilized ovum, ergo, if one believes that life begins at the moment of conception, the oral contraception is no different that abortion.

This may not be a mainstream view and certainly not mine, but it is the opinion of the majority of those in the pro-life movement.

The other thing that is of concern is how to treat women with ectopic pregnancies or who are having a miscarriage. I recall the case in Ireland were a pregnant woman went to the ER because she was in pain and bleeding. In that case the woman and her husband wanted the baby but it was hopeless that the pregnancy could continue, that the baby would survive. But she was denied a DNC because a faint fetal heartbeat was detected and under the very restrictive abortion laws in Ireland at the time nothing was done and the woman ended up dying of sepsis.

The other elephant in the room is that RvW is overturned, or even just passed back to the states to legislate, is how miscarriages and not just miscarriages resulting from drug use, could be investigated as possible homicides. As absurd as that sounds, Georgia and Indiana under the governorship of Mike Pence, had such legislation that thankfully did not pass because the language was so vague and misworded that it was left up to prosecutorial digression.

Additionally, some states have passed anti-abortion legislation, while not outlawing or even restricting abortion, mandates that not only aborted fetuses but miscarried fetuses, regardless of term, must be cremated or buried as any deceased person would of course at the mother’s expense.

As to 2000 years ago:

An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.”

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-fetus-in-jewish-law/

The Old Testament has several legal passages that refer to abortion, but they deal with it in terms of loss of property and not sanctity of life.
The status of the foetus as property in the Bible is shown by the law that if a person causes a miscarriage they must pay a fine to the husband of the woman, but if they also cause the woman to die then they are liable to be killed.
The New Testament doesn't explicitly deal with abortion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/legal/history_1.shtml


And even in Western culture and common law up until the late 19th and early 20th century, a baby was not considered a separate human until the “quickening” which typically occurs around the 18th to 20th week. Causing a woman to miscarry or to abort was not a prosecutable offense until the quickening.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 10:36:07 pm by Neverdul »
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Offline Drago

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #116 on: July 09, 2018, 10:40:41 pm »
Fundamental right to control your own reproductive equipment, to control your own body. 

You can yell and scream “murder” all you want to, but that merely makes you no better than liberals who scream “racism” when they don’t want to debate an issue.

Nope you are taking the typical "liberal" position of screaming "rights" without even defining what the so-called right is or even the definition of a "person". (Yes, just like the liberal screaming "racism" when they are short on facts).  I think you must be using the "magic" argument, just substitute "viability" for "birth canal" in the following video:
https://youtu.be/CNgwsT295G8   

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #117 on: July 09, 2018, 10:43:43 pm »
Good grief, you need to get a handle on the snark.  No, @Right_in_Virginia was accusing @Bigun of being misogynist because he said "rape claim" instead "rape".  Clear?

No, you got that wrong @Sanguine

Read post 25 ... I objected to this post as misogynist all on its own. .... it lead to the discussion on rape since a woman hasn't "granted someone entry there" which according to @Bigun automatically means a woman has forfeited all future control over her body.   

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #118 on: July 09, 2018, 10:46:16 pm »
No, you got that wrong @Sanguine

Read post 25 ... I objected to this post as misogynist all on its own. .... it lead to the discussion on rape since a woman hasn't "granted someone entry there" which according to @Bigun automatically means a woman has forfeited all future control over her body.

Yeah, and I didn't want to and didn't get into all of that.  I was only explaining "claim" vs. "rape", which was one point of contention.  And, you're welcome.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 10:47:11 pm by Sanguine »

Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #119 on: July 09, 2018, 10:49:32 pm »
Nope you are taking the typical "liberal" position of screaming "rights" without even defining what the so-called right is or even the definition of a "person". (Yes, just like the liberal screaming "racism" when they are short on facts).  I think you must be using the "magic" argument, just substitute "viability" for "birth canal" in the following video:
https://youtu.be/CNgwsT295G8   

I have stated the right quite clearly:  the fundamental right to control your own body and its reproductive functions.

Are you saying that there is no right to control one’s own body?

Offline Bigun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #120 on: July 09, 2018, 10:49:53 pm »
No, you got that wrong @Sanguine

Read post 25 ... I objected to this post as misogynist all on its own. .... it lead to the discussion on rape since a woman hasn't "granted someone entry there" which according to @Bigun automatically means a woman has forfeited all future control over her body.

@Right_in_Virginia

I said no such thing and I will thank you to stop saying otherwise.   Each instance of a woman granting such entry is a separate matter and one would hope she would learn to make the correct choice if she doesn't want to deal with the possible  consequences.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 10:50:56 pm by Bigun »
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Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #121 on: July 09, 2018, 10:52:12 pm »
Good grief, you need to get a handle on the snark.  No, @Right_in_Virginia was accusing @Bigun of being misogynist because he said "rape claim" instead "rape".  Clear?

There was no snark.  Since it is possible that a woman can get pregnant from being raped, then that is a fact scenario that should be discussed as such.  Whether it is also possible that some women may claim “rape” when they in fact weren’t raped is not germane to the question of whether a woman who was in fact raped can abort the resulting fetus without interference from the government.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #122 on: July 09, 2018, 10:53:21 pm »
There was no snark.  Since it is possible that a woman can get pregnant from being raped, then that is a fact scenario that should be discussed as such.  Whether it is also possible that some women may claim “rape” when they in fact weren’t raped is not germane to the question of whether a woman who was in fact raped can abort the resulting fetus without interference from the government.

See #118, above.

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #123 on: July 09, 2018, 10:56:20 pm »
"Word" @mystery-ak   You agree "no one has the right to arbitraryly end it. Especially based only on a claim of rape".

What the heck do you mean by based "only" on a claim of rape?

I believe that no matter how a woman gets pregnant she has no right to end that pregnancy....there..I hope that is clear enough
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Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #124 on: July 09, 2018, 10:58:14 pm »
See #118, above.

There was no snark.