Mueller WILL NOT Present Collusion Evidence At Manafort Trial

[Oceander]

And, what has that got to do with what I said?  You seem to be determined to make your case, regardless of what I write.  It doesn't enhance your credibility.

Because you seem to think that Mueller can only focus on “collusion” and must be willfully blind to any other criminal conduct he may have come across in his investigation.  And that is simply flatly not true. Manafort was included in the original investigation because of his position and role with the Trump campaign, and that investigation brought to light the criminal conduct for which Manafort has been charged, and which Mueller has been authorized to prosecute.  As such, it is utterly irrelevant that Mueller will not be introducing any evidence of collusion at Manafort’s trial; such evidence, if offered, would in fact be excluded, or should be excluded, under the rules of evidence as being both irrelevant to the charges for which he’s being prosecuted and unduly prejudicial to Manafort. 

[skeeter]

After and because of that investigation, the IC rules were changed to the SC rules we currently have.  We have no idea of the totality of what the investigation has.  If truly wanted to fish and desired to expand the probe, he wouldn't have handed off the Cohen case to SDNY.

Or maybe he realized Cohen is a dry hole. As I said, Starr was presented with a blue dress. What did Mueller have to justify the expansion?

[Sanguine]

Because you seem to think that Mueller can only focus on “collusion” and must be willfully blind to any other criminal conduct he may have come across in his investigation.  And that is simply flatly not true. Manafort was included in the original investigation because of his position and role with the Trump campaign, and that investigation brought to light the criminal conduct for which Manafort has been charged, and which Mueller has been authorized to prosecute.  As such, it is utterly irrelevant that Mueller will not be introducing any evidence of collusion at Manafort’s trial; such evidence, if offered, would in fact be excluded, or should be excluded, under the rules of evidence as being both irrelevant to the charges for which he’s being prosecuted and unduly prejudicial to Manafort.

I can't do it.  You've moved the goalposts so many times, I'm not sure what yard we're on now.

[Oceander]

I can't do it.  You've moved the goalposts so many times, I'm not sure what yard we're on now.

So let’s make it simple:  why should evidence of collusion be introduced in a prosecution for tax evasion?

[Sanguine]

So let’s make it simple:  why should evidence of collusion be introduced in a prosecution for tax evasion?

 

I never said it should be!  See, you've confused yourself.

[Oceander]

I never said it should be!  See, you've confused yourself.

Ok. So what is your problem with prosecuting Manafort?

[edpc]

Or maybe he realized Cohen is a dry hole. As I said, Starr was presented with a blue dress. What did Mueller have to justify the expansion?

You might recall that the dress was presented, because Linda Tripp convinced Monica to keep it and had recordings of her statements contradicting her previous sworn statement.  She was given immunity to provide the garment and change her testimony.  They're still in the process of sifting through millions of Cohen's documents.  So far, a very small percentage has been deemed privileged.  Who knows what's in them or may become germane to Mueller's investigation?  Even if there's nothing, it's not inconceivable Cohen could negotiate a deal to reduce/avoid prison with relevant information.

[skeeter]

You might recall that the dress was presented, because Linda Tripp convinced Monica to keep it and had recordings of her statements contradicting her previous sworn statement.  She was given immunity to provide the garment and change her testimony.  They're still in the process of sifting through millions of Cohen's documents.  So far, a very small percentage has been deemed privileged.  Who knows what's in them or may become germane to Mueller's investigation?  Even if there's nothing, it's not inconceivable Cohen could negotiate a deal to reduce/avoid prison with relevant information.

One would think if Mueller thought that was a reasonable possibility he wouldn't have handed the case off.

[skeeter]

Ok. So what is your problem with prosecuting Manafort?

My 2 cents - many of us don't have a problem prosecuting a tax cheat.

We DO have a problem with Mueller's heavy handedness. No bail, 23 hrs daily solitary confinement.

C'mon.

[edpc]

One would think if Mueller thought that was a reasonable possibility he wouldn't have handed the case off.

One could also think the review of a lawyer's files would require a lot of resources dedicated specifically to it and anything pertinent can always be referred back.

[skeeter]

One could also think the review of a lawyer's files would require a lot of resources dedicated specifically to it and anything pertinent can always be referred back.

Mueller's currently adding headcount... what better reason to add more prosecutors than to peruse Trump's 'bagman' attorney's files?

[Oceander]

My 2 cents - many of us don't have a problem prosecuting a tax cheat.

We DO have a problem with Mueller's heavy handedness. No bail, 23 hrs daily solitary confinement.

C'mon.

So how do you prevent someone who has already attempted to contact witnesses for the purposes of tampering with them from continuing to do so?

And this wasn’t some unilateral decision by Mueller; this was a decision by the judge, and by the corrections officials who have stated that it is the only way to guarantee his safety. 

Are all of these people in on some vast grand conspiracy with Mueller to pick on poor little Mr. Manafort?

[Frank Cannon]

My 2 cents - many of us don't have a problem prosecuting a tax cheat.

We DO have a problem with Mueller's heavy handedness. No bail, 23 hrs daily solitary confinement.

C'mon.

Especially when we have tangible proof that Stupid Bobby and his team of Clinton campaign workers have fabricated evidence to make cases. That is why the taxpayers have doled out over $100 million dollars to cover for Stupid Bobby's corrupt prosecutions.

[Oceander]

Especially when we have tangible proof that Stupid Bobby and his team of Clinton campaign workers have fabricated evidence to make cases. That is why the taxpayers have doled out over $100 million dollars to cover for Stupid Bobby's corrupt prosecutions.

Uh yeah.  You have even a scintilla of evidence that any of the evidence against Manafort that supports the charges in question has been manufactured?

[edpc]

Mueller's currently adding headcount... what better reason to add more prosecutors than to peruse Trump's 'bagman' attorney's files?

Some of the additions are in place to take over cases like Concord Management.  People say he's handing it off, because it's a loser.  The argument can also be made that the case will drag out.  Even if he gets a favorable verdict, there's never going to be an appearance by the people involved.  There's no value for him to personally see it through, since the indictment information will be included in his final report and no deal from individuals would be made to further his case.

[skeeter]

Are all of these people in on some vast grand conspiracy with Mueller to pick on poor little Mr. Manafort?

Obviously so.

Most reasonable people understand Mueller is squeezing the hell out of Manafort for reasons other than his tax filing habits. And, lacking results, he's squeezing him as a warning to others.

And thats bullsh*t in a free country.

[Frank Cannon]

Uh yeah.  You have even a scintilla of evidence that any of the evidence against Manafort that supports the charges in question has been manufactured?

Yeah, because your hero of the stupid Bobby has cost the American taxpayers over $100 million dollars because he is a lying sack of shit. His number 2 capo has been hauled in front of disciplinary boards for being a corrupt liar and almost disbarred.

The burden of proof is on your filthy lying pack of openly Leftist shitbag attorneys who threw this dude in solitary. Judging by the disaster that Stupid Bobby is having with his other prosecutions in this witch hunt, I'll bet a dollar there will be more disciplinary hearings and taxpayer payouts in their future.

[Oceander]

Obviously so.

Most reasonable people understand Mueller is squeezing the hell out of Manafort for reasons other than his tax filing habits. And, lacking results, he's squeezing him as a warning to others.

And thats bullsh*t in a free country.

No, it’s not bullshit.  Manafort is scheduled to go on trial for the charges of bank fraud and tax evasion just like any other defendant charged with similar crimes.  He had his bail revoked because - as the judge found - he attempted to tamper with witnesses, and the corrections officials put him into solitary to protect his safety. 

Considering how even administration officials who haven’t done anything are being harassed right now, and given that Scalise was shot, it seems to me that there are serious concerns about his safety.  If there really was this vast conspiracy designed to squeeze an otherwise innocent Manafort, don’t you think that Mueller would have wanted him in the general population, where some enforced could reach out and “touch” him with relative impunity?

Manafort is being prosecuted because he committed serious tax evasion - to the tune of millions - as well as bank fraud, not because Mueller thinks he can turn Manafort into some sort of anti-Trump puppet. 

[edpc]

Here's the thing with Manafort.  Back in 2014, the DOJ, under Holder, was investigating the corruption of Yanukovych.  The FBI was aware he engaged in suspicious activities and questioned Manafort at the time.  They took no action against him, because he wasn't the direct target.  That kind of negates political motivations.  So what does he do?  Knowing he had been under fed scrutiny two years prior, Manafort weasels his way into the campaign manager position by working for free, so he can re-establish those shady foreign contacts and cash flow.  He offers personal 'briefings' on the campaign to a Russian oligarch.  He secures a loan from Stephen Calk, by saying he'd put in a good word for consideration as Army Secretary.  That's pay to play, on top of all the other corruption for which he's currently charged.  We should really be saying good riddance to this guy.

[Oceander]

Yeah, because your hero of the stupid Bobby has cost the American taxpayers over $100 million dollars because he is a lying sack of shit. His number 2 capo has been hauled in front of disciplinary boards for being a corrupt liar and almost disbarred.

The burden of proof is on your filthy lying pack of openly Leftist shitbag attorneys who threw this dude in solitary. Judging by the disaster that Stupid Bobby is having with his other prosecutions in this witch hunt, I'll bet a dollar there will be more disciplinary hearings and taxpayer payouts in their future.

In other words, you have no such evidence, so all you can resort to is character assassination.

[skeeter]

No, it’s not bullshit.  Manafort is scheduled to go on trial for the charges of bank fraud and tax evasion just like any other defendant charged with similar crimes.  He had his bail revoked because - as the judge found - he attempted to tamper with witnesses, and the corrections officials put him into solitary to protect his safety. 

Considering how even administration officials who haven’t done anything are being harassed right now, and given that Scalise was shot, it seems to me that there are serious concerns about his safety.  If there really was this vast conspiracy designed to squeeze an otherwise innocent Manafort, don’t you think that Mueller would have wanted him in the general population, where some enforced could reach out and “touch” him with relative impunity?

Manafort is being prosecuted because he committed serious tax evasion - to the tune of millions - as well as bank fraud, not because Mueller thinks he can turn Manafort into some sort of anti-Trump puppet.

If it were a SC without the track record of guys like Mueller and Weinstein your point would be compelling. But prosecutorial overreach seems to be their MO.

[Oceander]

If it were a SC without the track record of guys like Mueller and Weinstein your point would be compelling. But prosecutorial overreach seems to be their MO.

Where is the prosecutorial overreach?  Are you saying that Mueller fabricated the evidence of tax evasion and bank fraud?  Are you saying that Mueller fabricated the evidence of witness tampering?  Are you saying that No judge has had a say in Manafort ending up in jail?

Even granting all the salacious character assassination of Mueller for the sake of argument does not vitiate what Manafort himself has done, or the consequences he’s now dealing with.  Even a stopped clock gets the time right twice a day. 

[skeeter]

Where is the prosecutorial overreach?  Are you saying that Mueller fabricated the evidence of tax evasion and bank fraud?  Are you saying that Mueller fabricated the evidence of witness tampering?  Are you saying that No judge has had a say in Manafort ending up in jail?

Even granting all the salacious character assassination of Mueller for the sake of argument does not vitiate what Manafort himself has done, or the consequences he’s now dealing with.  Even a stopped clock gets the time right twice a day.

Why wasn't Mueller Manafort prosecuted in 2014?

I guess we won't find out until we see what was on the FISA warrant that supposedly prompted Mueller to re-open his case in 2016.

[Oceander]

Why wasn't Mueller prosecuted in 2014?

I guess we won't find out until we see what was on the FISA warrant that supposedly prompted Mueller to re-open his case in 2016.

You mean Manafort?

Prosecutorial discretion.

It’s also irrelevant. Just because a prosecutor chooses not to prosecute on one occasion does not bar another prosecutor from prosecuting at a later date. 

Perhaps it’s as simple as he fact that Mueller realized he needed something concrete for his efforts, and that since there really wasn’t anything showing illegal collusion on the part of Trump, it was Manafort’s time in the docket.

In other words, just because the first cop doesn’t pull you over for speeding, doesn’t mean the second one cannot. 

[Sanguine]

Here's the thing with Manafort.  Back in 2014, the DOJ, under Holder, was investigating the corruption of Yanukovych.  The FBI was aware he engaged in suspicious activities and questioned Manafort at the time.  They took no action against him, because he wasn't the direct target.  That kind of negates political motivations. So what does he do?  Knowing he had been under fed scrutiny two years prior, Manafort weasels his way into the campaign manager position by working for free, so he can re-establish those shady foreign contacts and cash flow.  He offers personal 'briefings' on the campaign to a Russian oligarch.  He secures a loan from Stephen Calk, by saying he'd put in a good word for consideration as Army Secretary.  That's pay to play, on top of all the other corruption for which he's currently charged.  We should really be saying good riddance to this guy.

No, that shows that before there was an elected president who wasn't Hillary Clinton, the DOJ did not feel the need to go after someone who would end up working very briefly on the campaign of the person who beat Clinton.  There are a number of people the DOJ could have gone after and chose not to, Manafort and Podesta included.  Not sure how you see that as anything BUT politics.  Well, and corruption.