Largest US nail manufacturer 'on the brink of extinction' because of the steel tariffs

[Fishrrman]

jpsb --

Excellent argument and analysis in #22 above !

"Free trade" -- it wasn't "free", and it wasn't fair, either.

[Frank Cannon]

First of all our industrial might was built from 1830's thru the 1960's. During most of that period
we had high tariffs. Used to be Republicans wanted tariffs and Democrats didn't.

Used to be that gov was funded by tariffs and not a progressive income tax. I kind of like that.

The reason tariffs help us become a economic super power is very simple. Tariffs allowed the USA
to develop our industry without having to compete with the super powers of the 19th and early
20th century. England and Germany. Note that England economic strength declined after adopting
so called free trade. Lincoln said "If we buy the rail from England, we will have the rail and England
will have the money. But if we make the rail here we will have the rail and we will have the money."
Lincoln was quite correct on that.

All the rest of the world did not become the opposite. WW1 took a terrible toll on Europe but
Europe recovered and then along comes WW2. Again a terrible toll on Europe (and Japan) but
both have recovered and it is interesting to note both have protectionist tariffs and other restrictions
that hinder American companies from completing in their markets as does China.

Please explain how China became an economic super power behind high tariff walls if tariffs are bad
for a nations economy? Dido the super power of Europe, Germany.

We are broke, up to our neck in debt and running huge trade deficits. I'd say our free trade
experiment has been a huge failure. Maybe we should go back to what we know works, protecting
American industry and American jobs. Just like what most of the rest of the world is doing.

Top Notch.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Tariffs...

Because government has such a proven history of making  the right policy decisions.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. 

[kevindavis007]

I just don't think the Government should be in the business of picking winners and loses. As with the case of tariffs.

[roamer_1]

I just don't think the Government should be in the business of picking winners and loses. As with the case of tariffs.

That can go the other way around.

The US gvt utterly destroyed the lumber industry. Outside of gating off lumber, and outside of insane environmental regulations, and outside of locked up timber sales, The US also did nothing to stop the subsidized lumber from Canada from pouring in.

Now that there is no timber industry, Canadian lumber has gone up in price, and you routinely see crazy costs for plywood and stick lumber. The retail cost of a sheet of 1/2" plywood in the summer time is insane.

There is no putting it back either. Not without a long term commitment from the feds, and a protected market  (most probably by way of tariff). Big Lumber is not going to put the mills back, and invest in road building and logging equipment without a guaranteed reason to do so. And with that infrastructure gone, there is no recovery possible.

[Hoodat]

Top Notch.

Top notch BS.

[Hoodat]

I just don't think the Government should be in the business of picking winners and loses. As with the case of tariffs.

It was bad when Obama did it.  But when Trump does It, it suddenly becomes good.  Go figure.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

That can go the other way around.

The US gvt utterly destroyed the lumber industry. Outside of gating off lumber, and outside of insane environmental regulations, and outside of locked up timber sales, The US also did nothing to stop the subsidized lumber from Canada from pouring in.

Now that there is no timber industry, Canadian lumber has gone up in price, and you routinely see crazy costs for plywood and stick lumber. The retail cost of a sheet of 1/2" plywood in the summer time is insane.

There is no putting it back either. Not without a long term commitment from the feds, and a protected market  (most probably by way of tariff). Big Lumber is not going to put the mills back, and invest in road building and logging equipment without a guaranteed reason to do so. And with that infrastructure gone, there is no recovery possible.

Exactly right.  It is the main reason why we should not do away with car tariffs between us and the EU.  They have been screwing us for years by fixing high tariffs on our cars while we only charged 2.5% to let theirs in.

And now they suddenly just want to 'drop' them between us.

I say 'Screw you', and jack it up a lot higher.

[roamer_1]

Exactly right.  It is the main reason why we should not do away with car tariffs between us and the EU.  They have been screwing us for years by fixing high tariffs on our cars while we only charged 2.5% to let theirs in.

And now they suddenly just want to 'drop' them between us.

I say 'Screw you', and jack it up a lot higher.

You misinterpret my objection.

If Canada were to lift its lumber subsidy right now, it would make no difference whatsoever - the US lumber industry is *gone*. The mills are *gone*. The logging and road equipment *gone*, all hauled away for pennies on the dollar.  It isn't there anymore.

Most of the big players are gone. Weyerhauser and Stone Container are still around, but largely regeared. LP went bankrupt. many others did too.

If US Auto were to be given reduced regulation and lifted subsidies for their competitors, they could ramp up - their factories are largely in place. Their labor force is easy to increase. They could meet their needs in order to cash in and profit.

US Lumber cannot.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You misinterpret my objection.

If Canada were to lift its lumber subsidy right now, it would make no difference whatsoever - the US lumber industry is *gone*. The mills are *gone*. The logging and road equipment *gone*, all hauled away for pennies on the dollar.  It isn't there anymore.

Most of the big players are gone. Weyerhauser and Stone Container are still around, but largely regeared. LP went bankrupt. many others did too.

If US Auto were to be given reduced regulation and lifted subsidies for their competitors, they could ramp up - their factories are largely in place. Their labor force is easy to increase. They could meet their needs in order to cash in and profit.

US Lumber cannot.

I actually agree with you.

It is far more important to preserve our automobile plants.  Someone will need to be able to build tanks and weaponry when, not if, we go to war.  I believe Trump knows this.

[kevindavis007]

I actually agree with you.

It is far more important to preserve our automobile plants.  Someone will need to be able to build tanks and weaponry when, not if, we go to war.  I believe Trump knows this.

I hope you realize that times have changed. We have specific industries that build the planes, tanks, and specific weaponry. The reason why in WWII we had to use them cause politicians gutted our military.

[Hoodat]

I hope you realize that times have changed. We have specific industries that build the planes, tanks, and specific weaponry. The reason why in WWII we had to use them cause politicians gutted our military.

Don't you find it funny how the other side keeps coming up with new motives for tariffs? Especially considering that their original reason - to create economic growth - was soundly debunked.  This is no different than arguing with Democrats.

[kevindavis007]

Don't you find it funny how the other side keeps coming up with new motives for tariffs? Especially considering that their original reason - to create economic growth - was soundly debunked.  This is no different than arguing with Democrats.

It is funny. They tend to have a certain worldview and a certain view of history. It is, I just don't think Government should be protecting GM or Ford because of what they did in WWII. That was then, this is now. I prefer to live in the here and now.

[roamer_1]

I actually agree with you.

It is far more important to preserve our automobile plants.  Someone will need to be able to build tanks and weaponry when, not if, we go to war.  I believe Trump knows this.

I don't think that's true - I think if they can compete, let em. The worst thing possible was bailing out Big Auto. They all desperately needed to go through restructuring. They all needed to shed calcified bureaucracy and ineffective labor. They all needed to address poor quality and poor planning. They need better ideas. New blood. The ability to risk. The better outcome would have presented if they were allowed to fail.

If they can't compete, examination is recommendable. I am not against what Reagan did for Harley. It brought Harley back. If an industry is damaged because of regulation, or special taxation, or government favoring labor, or government favoring overseas competition for political purposes, by all means, level the field and relieve the industry of what we have imposed upon them so they can get on their feet. If that must include temporarily protecting that market, then so be it.

But neither of those conditions are what took out Big Timber. This was an orchestrated and intentional destruction imposed by the federal government. They were purposefully destroyed. Even if you lift sanctions and open timber sales, no one is going to invest without a long term promise of return. That means a protected market. That means government favor... To put that industry back, and strong enough to stand on it's own, is a serious commitment across a couple decades. Otherwise it would be foolish to invest the billions it will take to put it back. This is not a short gain game.

[kevindavis007]

Steel tariffs that went into effect the first week of June are causing a factory in Missouri to lay off dozens of workers due to lost business from cancelled customer orders.

At the MidContinent Steel and Wire plant in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, where Magnum Fasteners products are made, 60 employees were laid off this month as certain operations were idled due to lost business from increased steel costs.

Company in "crisis mode"

The company is the largest nail manufacturer in the U.S. and employs hundreds of people in Poplar Bluff. It is owned by Deacaro, a Mexico-headquartered firm which ships steel from its mills in Mexico into the U.S. for a variety of finished products. The administration's steel tariffs add a 25 percent penalty to the raw material.

"The imposition of these tariffs on our raw materials on June 1st has actually put our operations into a crisis mode," operations general manager Chris Pratt told KFVS in an interview.

One employee laid off last Monday said the layoffs could be a sign of bigger problems at the nail factory, KFVS reported.

Read More: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/factory-workers-lose-jobs-as-steel-tariffs-put-business-in-crisis-mode/

Winning...

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I hope you realize that times have changed. We have specific industries that build the planes, tanks, and specific weaponry. The reason why in WWII we had to use them cause politicians gutted our military.

And I do hope you realize war means survival.  That means you pull out all stops to win, no matter what.

War causes one to use all resources at one's disposal like factories, to restrict usage of certain things like petroleum, to get everyone to help in the war effort, like women not otherwise working, to be on assembly lines.

[jpsb]

Don't you find it funny how the other side keeps coming up with new motives for tariffs? Especially considering that their original reason - to create economic growth - was soundly debunked.  This is no different than arguing with Democrats.

You can fund government with tariffs or with the progressive income tax. I find it strange that
conservatives prefer a progressive income tax to a voluntary sales tax on foreign goods. Maybe
we have a few Fake Conservatives posting here.

[Oceander]

You can fund government with tariffs or with the progressive income tax. I find it strange that
conservatives prefer a progressive income tax to a voluntary sales tax on foreign goods. Maybe
we have a few Fake Conservatives posting here.

/snicker

Actually, no, you can’t. 

[Hoodat]

I suggest you go look at China's per capita GDP and see just how wealthy they really are. It is something like a quarter of the US's. That is a drastic difference.

Yes, they've had a lot of growth - but that's because they started from essentially zero in relatively recent times when they loosened the economic shackles on their people. They are not the model for economic success, especially long term.

Our economic problems are primarily because of big government cradle to grave social services/regulation intertwined with government corruption seeking more power/votes consuming a large part of our resources.

This.

[jpsb]

/snicker

Actually, no, you can’t.

Are you a big government progressive Marxist troll? We funded gov without a progressive income
tax thru most of our history. It was only after WW2 that gov put the screws to us with the
Marxist income tax. I am very surprised to see all these so called conservatives defending the
Marxist income tax.

[jpsb]

This.

What ever they have the worlds largest economy (or soon will) and they did that behind a wall of
high tariffs. Just like we did. Those are the facts.

Tariffs protect domestic industries and allow them to grow. They prevent predatory trade practices
like dumping.

Maybe you don't give a damn about American industry and American jobs as long as you can get
cheap stuff at Wal-mart but remember this. The Chicoms are putting the dollars you send then
into machines designed to kill you and your family. And they have the will do use those weapons if
they think they need to.

[endicom]

Topics merged.

[Oceander]

Are you a big government progressive Marxist troll? We funded gov without a progressive income
tax thru most of our history. It was only after WW2 that gov put the screws to us with the
Marxist income tax. I am very surprised to see all these so called conservatives defending the
Marxist income tax.

If the federal government never imposed an income tax until after WWII, then how was it possible for the Supreme Court to hold the income tax unconstitutional back in 1895, and the 16th amendment to be ratified in 1913?

[Frank Cannon]

It was bad when Obama did it.  But when Trump does It, it suddenly becomes good.  Go figure.

If tariffs are so bad, why have we always have them in one way or another? It only pissed you folks off that Trump is using it as a negotiating tactic. Ever hear of the Chicken Tax and the Subaru Brat? Ever wonder why they put seats in the back of them?



I've been circulating on these political forums for a couple decades and NO ONE ever gave a rats ass about any of this till one guy decided to use them at a stick in trade negotiations. No one.

[jpsb]

If the federal government never imposed an income tax until after WWII, then how was it possible for the Supreme Court to hold the income tax unconstitutional back in 1895, and the 16th amendment to be ratified in 1913?

At first income taxes were only levied on the very wealthy. That is how the income tax was sold to
the American people, a voluntary tax only on millionaires. But after a while around the time of
WW2 the "voluntary" disappeared and so did the "only on millionaires". Income tax plus Federal Reserve equal lots of "free" money for our political leaders. That is until our debt become so large
that just paying the interest consumes just about the entire budget. You better hope the feds
keep interest rates very low.

You really should read a little history from time to time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_taxes_by_type.pdf