Author Topic: This technology could fundamentally change our relationship to electricity  (Read 2158 times)

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Offline thackney

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Oh, yeah.  I like the kind of batteries you just throw away when they're all used up; double A, triple A, button and the like.

I think these came with a 10 year warranty under constant use.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Oh, yeah.  I like the kind of batteries you just throw away when they're all used up; double A, triple A, button and the like.

It's even better when you put those battery in a snowball when you throw them away......and you are aiming at someones head.

Offline RoosGirl

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It's even better when you put those battery in a snowball when you throw them away......and you are aiming at someones head.


Oh yeah, I do that all the time.

Offline Suppressed

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BS!

I work in electrical power.  I've worked in the electric utility industries and I've been the design engineer on complete stand alone system for remote oilfield installation.  That power losses never goes into the generator, cables or transformers.  It is a measurement of the energy in the fuel that doesn't go down the driveshaft to the generator.  If that energy loss was going through the generator and wires at the power plant, that equipment would have to be more than twice as big as they currently are.  We constantly measure the power at that point.  The existing wires would be melting if this claim was true.

So, if that's the case, the naysayers are wrong -- we really could build huge solar plants in the Sahara and have little T&D loss?
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Oh yeah, I do that all the time.

With all that snow you have, yeah.
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Offline RoosGirl

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With all that snow you have, yeah.

 ^-^

Offline thackney

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So, if that's the case, the naysayers are wrong -- we really could build huge solar plants in the Sahara and have little T&D loss?

Well keep in mind average total miles between plant and end user is probably 3~400 miles.

7,000 miles is going to have some more losses.

But that ratio of losses has been the case for a long time.  It used to be >9% many years ago but efficiencies have improved since then.

Electric power transmission and distribution losses (% of output)
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.LOSS.ZS

Energy storage is still the main issue for wind/solar.  It can be overcome, but at what cost?
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Offline GtHawk

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Well keep in mind average total miles between plant and end user is probably 3~400 miles.

7,000 miles is going to have some more losses.

But that ratio of losses has been the case for a long time.  It used to be >9% many years ago but efficiencies have improved since then.

Electric power transmission and distribution losses (% of output)
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.LOSS.ZS

Energy storage is still the main issue for wind/solar.  It can be overcome, but at what cost?
Ask the Germans

Offline Joe Wooten

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Nobody is claiming that.  It is the third line down on the grapic I copied out of the article.  Line losses (which in the the transmission line, substation, distribution and end user transformers) are shown.  But they are damn near insignificant compared to the losses in a thermal power plant, especially a coal fueled power plant that may consume 1/3 of the generated power (past the generator) to clean up the exhaust to an accepted level.

Yep. The limitations of the Carnot cycle ensure that. A typical modern gas/coal fired steam plant runs about 45% efficiency. The new nukes run about 36%. Combined cycle plants are the most efficient of all and they run about 60%. So at best, 40% of the energy you use to make heat to drive a generator goes out into the environment. Line losses are large, but are also insignificant compared to plant losses. We could spend a fortune on a superconducting grid to lower those losses, but it would never pay off with today's technology.

Bottoming cycles can be installed in the condensers and generate additional power using Freon turbines and maybe eke out another 4-5% efficiency gain, but again the capital cost of such bottoming cycle equipment and the maintenance costs are huge and guaranteed to never pay off, which is why no one has ever installed such systems on commercial plants, except as demonstrators on small college campus power plants (University of Texas).

The guys writing that article had what we call in the nuke biz a Loss Of Physics Accident (LOPA)

Offline thackney

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The guys writing that article had what we call in the nuke biz a Loss Of Physics Accident (LOPA)

LOL, I need to remember that.
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