Author Topic: Trump claims thousands had to be rescued after going 'out in their boats to watch' Hurricane Harvey  (Read 15487 times)

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Offline thackney

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I think by now most urban and suburban areas have been pretty well modeled to fairly accurately know what the 100 year flood elevation is. 

I don't believe most of the area has been updated in the flood plain elevation over a couple decades.  While levers and retainage ponds have changed the borders, the elevation is often not recalculated.

In my case, multiple flood control lakes have been built upstream but the impact on the river is unchanged in over 4 decades.
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Offline RoosGirl

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I don't believe most of the area has been updated in the flood plain elevation over a couple decades.  While levers and retainage ponds have changed the borders, the elevation is often not recalculated.

In my case, multiple flood control lakes have been built upstream but the impact on the river is unchanged in over 4 decades.

It's slow, but there is a process in place by FEMA that requests municipalities update the flood maps in their region.  I dont recall how often they try to do it.  Are you sure that whatever "improvements" have been made just haven't significantly affected the flood area?  Really, the flood elevation stays the same, just certain areas may be removed if compensating storage is provided elsewhere. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

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It's slow, but there is a process in place by FEMA that requests municipalities update the flood maps in their region.  I dont recall how often they try to do it.  Are you sure that whatever "improvements" have been made just haven't significantly affected the flood area?  Really, the flood elevation stays the same, just certain areas may be removed if compensating storage is provided elsewhere.

Seems to me wide variations in actual rainfall would somewhat invalidate the models.  A location could get one inch of rain over a given time, and another location a couple miles away could get many inches of rainfall in that same period of time.

You are the Civil Engineer here, not I, so I defer to your understanding of this.
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Offline berdie

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@GrouchoTex
Well, not to diminish what all y'all went through...
But to watch not only Texas, but the whole South and much of the Desert SW descend with every sort of duck boat and john boat, and air boat and, and, and... THAT friend, was a thing of beauty.

There's a vid out there somewhere of mile after mile of pickups with boat trailers riding in with the rain still coming down.

Chokes me up just thinking about that.

That's still the story as far as I am concerned.



@roamer_1 It had the same effect on me...and still does.

Offline Sanguine

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@roamer_1 It had the same effect on me...and still does.

And, me too.

Offline thackney

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It's slow, but there is a process in place by FEMA that requests municipalities update the flood maps in their region.  I dont recall how often they try to do it.  Are you sure that whatever "improvements" have been made just haven't significantly affected the flood area?  Really, the flood elevation stays the same, just certain areas may be removed if compensating storage is provided elsewhere.

Improvements such as levees and retainage ponds get shown.  But I have found searching through Houston area FEMA maps the flood elevation doesn't seem to change over the decades.

I'm concerned there is a reluctance to identify a home previously in or out of the flood plain as changed.
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Offline Sanguine

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Improvements such as levees and retainage ponds get shown.  But I have found searching through Houston area FEMA maps the flood elevation doesn't seem to change over the decades.

I'm concerned there is a reluctance to identify a home previously in or out of the flood plain as changed.

You'd think the insurance companies would be pushing for some accuracy.

Offline RoosGirl

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Seems to me wide variations in actual rainfall would somewhat invalidate the models.  A location could get one inch of rain over a given time, and another location a couple miles away could get many inches of rainfall in that same period of time.

You are the Civil Engineer here, not I, so I defer to your understanding of this.

They start by doing regional models based on elevations and then define drainage basins.  The rainfall amounts are based on compiled long term data.  Then run the models for a variety of 100 year storms with differing durations.  For example, a 100-year 2-hour storm will have less rainfall inches than a 100-year 240-hour storm, but the conditions might be just right that the intensity of the 2 hour storm cause the stage of standing water to be higher than the 240 hour storm.  Usually not, but we check just to make sure, particularly in a closed basin such as one that may include a lake with no outfall to a river or the ocean, just as an example.

Offline RoosGirl

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Improvements such as levees and retainage ponds get shown.  But I have found searching through Houston area FEMA maps the flood elevation doesn't seem to change over the decades.

I'm concerned there is a reluctance to identify a home previously in or out of the flood plain as changed.

Yeah, like I said, those elevations really don't change.  My experience is that locations are removed because of fill placed there to raise it above the flood elevation, but only when some compensating storage is provided elsewhere tbat is directly connected to the flood zone. Because if you fill in a portion of a flood zone that will cause the flood elevation to rise and FEMA and the permitting agencies won't allow you to affect other areas.  That typically means building a pond or using other land adjacent to the flood zone and digging out some area.

But, I don't have any experience with levees and dams to say how those are modeled. Though I do think FEMA is invested in making their maps as accurate as they can.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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You'd think the insurance companies would be pushing for some accuracy.

They are certainly the prime financial stakeholders in this....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Online Elderberry

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> Do you live in a floodplain?    https://www.hcfcd.org/flooding-floodplains/floodplain-management/

Floodplain management is defined as a decision making process that aims to achieve the wise use of the Nation's floodplains. Floodplain management aims to achieve a reduction in the loss of life, disruption, and damage cause by floods; and the preservation and restoration of the natural resources and functions of floodplains (which, in turn, lessen damage potential). To achieve the goals of floodplain management, the nation must adopt a new approach- one that takes full advantage of all methods available to reduce vulnerabilities to damages and, in parallel, to protect and enhance the natural resources and functions of the floodplain. This approach would achieve floodplain management through: avoiding the risks of the floodplain, minimizing the impacts of those risks when they cannot be avoided; mitigating the impacts of damages when they occur; and accomplishing the above in a manner that concurrently protects and enhances the natural environment.

Online corbe

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   I wasn't low enough in Houston so I moved to Nawlins. 
   Got out before Katrina, now I'm in the Texas Hill Country (866 msl). Harvey hit us hard.
   Houston's problem has always been drainage, Barkers Reservoir, withstanding.
   Concrete/Asphalt 620 sq miles of swamp land and let me know how that works out.

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Online Elderberry

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Not all of us livin' along the bayou or have us a piece of "Bottom Land" live in a swamp.

A swamp is an area of land permanently saturated, or filled, with water. Many swamps are even covered by water. There are two main types of swamps: freshwater swamps and saltwater swamps.

Swamps are dominated by trees. They are often named for the type of trees that grow in them, such as cypress swamps or hardwood swamps. Freshwater swamps are commonly found inland, while saltwater swamps are usually found along coastal areas. Swamps are transition areas. They are neither totally land nor totally water.

Swamps exist in many kinds of climates and on every continent except Antarctica. They vary in size from isolated prairie potholes to huge coastal salt marshes. Some swamps are flooded woodlands. Some are former lakes or ponds overtaken by trees and shrubs.

Freshwater Swamps

Freshwater swamps form around lakes and streams. Rain and seasonal flooding cause water levels to fluctuate. In the wet soil, water-tolerant vegetation grows and helps maintain a moist, swampy condition.

In many freshwater swamps in the southeastern United States, cypress and tupelo trees grow. Spanish moss may hang from the branches, and tiny plants called duckweed may cover the waters surface. Shrubs and bushes may grow beneath the trees. Sometimes poking as much as 4 meters (13 feet) above the water are angular knobs called cypress knees. They are outgrowths of the trees' root systems.

Alligators, frogs, and many other animals live in these swamps. These animals are adapted to fluctuating water levels. The shadowy tree root system and cypress knobs provide a rich, sheltered habitat for nesting birds, as well as fish, amphibians and reptiles.

Offline thackney

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Yeah, like I said, those elevations really don't change.  My experience is that locations are removed because of fill placed there to raise it above the flood elevation, but only when some compensating storage is provided elsewhere tbat is directly connected to the flood zone. Because if you fill in a portion of a flood zone that will cause the flood elevation to rise and FEMA and the permitting agencies won't allow you to affect other areas.  That typically means building a pond or using other land adjacent to the flood zone and digging out some area.

But, I don't have any experience with levees and dams to say how those are modeled. Though I do think FEMA is invested in making their maps as accurate as they can.

Also, when they don't maintain the needed dredging, it slows the outflow and has to impact the speed water gets out and not build up during flood conditions.

http://thefacts.com/free_share/article_7d87bf33-8bf3-52ed-93c0-11ea4f6125f1.html
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Online Elderberry

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When I bought my house, I discovered it was in the 100 yr flood plain and I was required to get flood insurance. I knew it had never flooded, it was only 3 miles from where I grew up and had several friends that lived in that neighborhood. About the time I had paid it off, abt 19 yrs later, the flood maps had been updated and I was no longer in the 100 year zone. I dropped flood insurance, and several tropical storms and hurricanes later, I have never flooded.

Online Elderberry

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Yeah, like I said, those elevations really don't change.  My experience is that locations are removed because of fill placed there to raise it above the flood elevation, but only when some compensating storage is provided elsewhere tbat is directly connected to the flood zone. Because if you fill in a portion of a flood zone that will cause the flood elevation to rise and FEMA and the permitting agencies won't allow you to affect other areas.  That typically means building a pond or using other land adjacent to the flood zone and digging out some area.

But, I don't have any experience with levees and dams to say how those are modeled. Though I do think FEMA is invested in making their maps as accurate as they can.

Don't forget about subsidence.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Brownwood-The-suburb-that-sank-by-the-Ship-4379765.php

Brownwood: The suburb that sank by the Ship Channel

According to the U.S. Geological Survey, between 1943 and 1973, roughly 4,700 square miles of land southeast of downtown Houston, chiefly Baytown and Pasadena, dropped by at least 6 inches. The area near the Ship Channel sank around 9 feet, and an estimated 100 acres of the San Jacinto Battleground - about a quarter of the original historic park's acreage - disappeared underwater.

What was happening? In the late '60s, hydrologist Robert Gabrysch, with the U.S. Geological Survey, began explaining to neighborhood groups, Rotary Clubs and anyone else who'd listen. Our area's gooey land, a clay-ey gumbo, lacks the firmness of bedrock or even sand. And as water-hungry industries pumped enormous quantities of groundwater out of that land, he explained, the land compacted. Subsidence, the process is called.

"It happened slowly," Mason tells me, the same as he tells the ninth-graders, as we hiked through Baytown Nature Center's tall trees. "Nobody noticed at first. But those incremental changes added up. Pretty soon people's houses started flooding - not just in hurricanes, but in regular storms, and even windy days and high tides."

Some of Brownwood's houses sank into the bay. Others, merely flood-prone, were rented to shaggy young people willing to cope with the occasional inundation. Residents kept their appliances atop concrete blocks or tables, and stowed important papers on the second or third floor. They watched the weather, and could pack and flee at a moment's notice. And they learned that when wading through floodwaters, it's best to avoid snakes and floating balls of fire ants.

"They built levees," Mason says. "They bought pumps. And look around."

Not a house survives.

Offline Sanguine

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Remember that about 1/3 of Holland is below sea level.  They do a great job of keeping the sea out of Holland. 

Offline WingNot

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Remember that about 1/3 of Holland is below sea level.  They do a great job of keeping the sea out of Holland.

They have a lot of dykes.
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Online Elderberry

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Remember that about 1/3 of Holland is below sea level.  They do a great job of keeping the sea out of Holland.

I wouldn't think that their extratropical cyclones are as strong and as frequent as all our tropical storms and hurricanes.

Offline Sanguine

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I wouldn't think that their extratropical cyclones are as strong and as frequent as all our tropical storms and hurricanes.

I don't know, but they do get serious Atlantic storms, and frequent heavy rain.

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They have a lot of dykes.

Maybe that’s Houston’s problem; all the Texas dykes are in Austin. 

Offline Sanguine

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Maybe that’s Houston’s problem; all the Texas dykes are in Austin.

OK, O, you earned this one:   *****rollingeyes*****   :silly:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Remember that about 1/3 of Holland is below sea level.  They do a great job of keeping the sea out of Holland.

"Give me a lever and a firm place to stand and I can move the world."

I don't think Houston has a firm place to stand, Holland may be different in that regard.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Sanguine

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"Give me a lever and a firm place to stand and I can move the world."

I don't think Houston has a firm place to stand, Holland may be different in that regard.

Well....Holland has Europe, Houston has Texas.   :shrug:

Online Elderberry

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"Give me a lever and a firm place to stand and I can move the world."

I don't think Houston has a firm place to stand, Holland may be different in that regard.

So I can see who won't stand with us.