Hatch: Trump steel and aluminum tariffs are a 'tax hike on Americans'

[skeeter]

How successful was Reagan in forcing Japan to adopt a trade policy that suited our needs instead of theirs?

Toyota has the most made-in-the-USA car - 75% local content.

[Emjay]

@Emjay

Since you asked, I did earn a minor in economics while in engineering school.  But it doesn't even take that to learn from history.  All it takes is the ability to learn.

Let's review, shall we?  In 2009, President Baraq Obama imposed a 35% tariff on Chinese tires.  All non-Chinese tire manufacturers quickly followed suit by raising the price of their own tires, taking advantage of the artificially high price of competitor tires set by the government.  This resulted in Americans paying $1.1 billion more for tires than they would have before the tariffs were imposed.

For me personally, I saw the price of my American-made tires go up.  It was a nice windfall for the manufacturer, but it sucked for consumers.  The tariffs allegedly saved 1,200 United Steelworker jobs.  But it cost 3,700 import/export jobs.  Net job loss - 2,500 because of the tariffs.

And how did China respond?  By placing tariffs on US chicken imports.  That tariff cost US chicken growers $1 billion in lost sales.

Notice that no economics degree is required here.   We have history to teach us.  Tire tariff resulted in:

• $1.1 billion loss of purchasing power by US consumers
• 2,500 lost tire jobs
• $1 billion in lost farm sales

Anyone with a functioning brain can figure out that overall, this hurt Americans.  Yet some choose to ignore history.  Is that you?

So how do you suggest we solve the trade imbalance?

[Fantom]

How successful was Reagan in forcing Japan to adopt a trade policy that suited our needs instead of theirs?

Well, he did have a bunch of democrats to deal with, including a House that had been democrat since  FDR. A Senate not much better.

Consider what Trump is doing and could be done if the House/Senate which are supposedly R's would work on the same Conservative agenda.

I would say Reagan did what he could with a Democrat Congress. And he still used tariffs. As for Japan, they lost their edge Eh. Maybe those tariffs helped.

Point being, anybody who compares President Trump as obama policies.... compares Reagan to the same. Jus' sayin'.

[libertybele]

Yes.  I also know he was dead wrong to do so.  Tariffs and quotas effectively destroyed the US auto manufacturing industry.  They made Japan a much tougher competitor.  These policies pushed Japan into the luxury car market, creating competition for American manufacturers where none existed before.  And these policies also allowed American companies to cut production and raise prices.  By 1985, Americans were paying $11 billion more per year for cars than they would have without the tariffs.

You want to talk steel tariffs?  Reagan's steel tariffs cost Steel manufacturers 52,000 due to loss of competition, price increases, and production cutbacks.

Or how about computer chips?  Huge increases in computer chip prices because of the tariffs made American computer manufacturers less competitive against other nations.  Hence loss of market share and loss of jobs.

History is a great teacher.

   Unfortunately, some fail to learn from history and history then repeats itself.

[Fantom]

Toyota has the most made-in-the-USA car - 75% local content.

Hmnnn.

And the policies of President Trump are bringing even more manufacturing jobs back. This is a great thing no?

[Hoodat]

So how do you suggest we solve the trade imbalance?

The trade imbalance isn't a problem.  For the umpteenth time, those dollars moving overseas end up right back in the US as investment dollars.  The pie grows.

[Fantom]

The trade imbalance isn't a problem.  For the umpteenth time, those dollars moving overseas end up right back in the US as investment dollars.  The pie grows.

As does China's military. But hey...investments.

[skeeter]

Hmnnn.

And the policies of President Trump are bringing even more manufacturing jobs back. This is a great thing no?

We have but to ask.

[Hoodat]

As does China's military. But hey...investments.

Whoa, stop the tape.  Did the objective just change?  I thought we were talking about the economy here.  If your objective is to punish China then cut off trade altogether.

[Fantom]

We have but to ask.

Yep.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001

[IsailedawayfromFR]

So in essence the supposed Trump tax cuts that so many raved about are basically not going to mean squat because consumers will be paying more for goods because of the steel and aluminum tariffs and less people will be able to afford these goods.  The less people buy goods, the less labor is needed and eventually jobs will be lost. 

Meanwhile the deficit continues to rise.

So ... explain to me how this is a good thing??

To equate the ability of people to keep their own money with a rise in the deficit is ludicrous.

The income receipts to the feds is at an alltime high and climbing further.  Lack of income is NOT creating or increasing the deficit.

It is runaway federal spending doing it.

We need to stop the misinformation here.

[Fantom]

Whoa, stop the tape.  Did the objective just change?  I thought we were talking about the economy here.  If your objective is to punish China then cut off trade altogether.

Mercantilism grows.

Trade must first be fair. To take a cue from the Chicago way... they bring a knife , we bring a gun.

There is no differentiation betwixt trade and empowering a global enemy. We did not trade with the USSR...we defeated them.

China is no different. Although the die is somewhat cast differently. If the battlefield be mercantilism..so be it. Lets us see how communism fairs... but let us let slip the dogs of capitalist mercantilism. Why be blind?

[edpc]

We did not trade with the USSR...we defeated them.

! No longer available



We sold them grain for decades.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

   At $3/gl, Gas has already eaten up most of that December Tax Cut (the only thing those varmits did) for many Americans, Venezuela/Iran continuing their downward spiral and now Tariffs, more pressure on the economy (unless you own Oil Stock)*, 5 months before the Midterms, just doesn't make sense to me.

  * Chevron and Shell Stock Holder.

A few things there.

1. If you are displeased with high gas taxes, write your congressman to submit legislation that eliminates the 18.4 cents per gallon federal tax per gallon.  They do minimal to deserve it, where those oil companies make less per gallon and do all the work.

2. Do the same with the state legislators on the state gasoline tax.  Here in Texas it is higher than the federal at 20 cents per gallon.

3. You do realize that more and more of the oil is being produced in this country that Americans use?  Would you rather be paying the Saudis or Venezuelans?  Do you believe in decreasing oil purchases from them are keeping us safer by weakening the cartel?

4. Do you think there are jobs connected with increased US oil production?  How about the increased exports of hydrocarbon products that decreases this country's trade imbalance? 

Lastly, on the gasoline prices, I encourage you to refresh yourself on what they historically have been.  To make it easy, here it is

[Hoodat]

Mercantilism grows.

Merchantilism?  Seriously?  How well did that work out for the Brits at the beginning of the 19th Century?

[IsailedawayfromFR]

One other thing few mention regarding car and steel/aluminum tariffs as well as high domestic oil production.

If(hopefully not when) we engage in another full-scale war, the US will need manufacturing plants to make the machinery to win.  Keeping domestic oil, auto manufacturing, and steel/aluminum companies all strong retains the ability to do so.

Weakening any of these in our industrial sector is a significant disadvantage militarily, and the Pentagon knows it.

[edpc]

One other thing few mention regarding car and steel/aluminum tariffs as well as high domestic oil production.

If(hopefully not when) we engage in another full-scale war, the US will need manufacturing plants to make the machinery to win.  Keeping domestic oil, auto manufacturing, and steel/aluminum companies all strong retains the ability to do so.

Weakening any of these in our industrial sector is a significant disadvantage militarily, and the Pentagon knows it.

We had better get started on some refinery building.  Most of what we process is ME heavy crude and the domestic stuff breaks down differently.

[Fantom]

We sold them grain for decades.

Fair enough. https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4610.html#1985

We always were compassionate. Note however, we did not fund their economy/military. We did not hand them our technology...they may have stole it fair and square..like the Chinese 'Ala Slick Willie.

Food is a weapon...you have it or do not. I stand by my assessment that we can make steel easier than The Forbidden City can grow food.

Likewise if you look at my link, you see we owned what trade there was with the USSR. The great thing about today...vrs 1930's is we own the market. That is to say , if we cut off all trade.... we gain several trillion.

Time for free trade or at least fair trade. Fair trade is the same %tariffs or restrictions they place on us. If one market is leveraged to one side or another...I.E. grain/textiles/manufacturing... than fair trade says you place tariffs on their goods that they place on yours.

That is what Trump is trying to do....and I applaud him for it.

[Fantom]

Merchantilism?  Seriously?  How well did that work out for the Brits at the beginning of the 19th Century?

Considering that little island held most of the world.... not too bad. Too everything a beginning, every Empire an end.

Adam Smith or Keynesian economics? Where fall you? Personally I am Adam Smith/Austrian.

The thing is Hoodat, if a country..say ours , lets itself be plundered by Mercantilism..it will be plundered. Who was it that brought up "Nature of Man" anyways...was that not you?

[IsailedawayfromFR]

We had better get started on some refinery building.  Most of what we process is ME heavy crude and the domestic stuff breaks down differently.

Or modifications.  Those refineries for the most part were built for lighter crudes, and later modified when in the 80s large refiners decided most oil will in the future of a heavier grade.

They can be reconfigured again.

[Fantom]

Or modifications.  Those refineries for the most part were built for lighter crudes, and later modified when in the 80s large refiners decided most oil will in the future of a heavier grade.

They can be reconfigured again.

Lets get Craken...sorry, could not help meself.

[corbe]

A few things there.

1. If you are displeased with high gas taxes, write your congressman to submit legislation that eliminates the 18.4 cents per gallon federal tax per gallon.  They do minimal to deserve it, where those oil companies make less per gallon and do all the work.

2. Do the same with the state legislators on the state gasoline tax.  Here in Texas it is higher than the federal at 20 cents per gallon.

3. You do realize that more and more of the oil is being produced in this country that Americans use?  Would you rather be paying the Saudis or Venezuelans?  Do you believe in decreasing oil purchases from them are keeping us safer by weakening the cartel?

4. Do you think there are jobs connected with increased US oil production?  How about the increased exports of hydrocarbon products that decreases this country's trade imbalance? 

Lastly, on the gasoline prices, I encourage you to refresh yourself on what they historically have been.  To make it easy, here it is

@IsailedawayfromFR
 ALL good points and I'd be the first to admit that I have a tendency to try and encapsulate deep thoughts in as few of words as possible, most always lost in (my own) translation.


   To clarify my points and attempt not to dig my hole deeper,  #1 and 2, I'm just to cynical to believe my letters could ever make a difference to those ba$bleep. 

   And to further believe I'm possibly addressing your 3 & 4: 

   Our Gov created the DOE in 74, 45 friggin years ago with the expressed written consent to reduce our independence on Foreign Oil, They failed miserably. After Trillions and now Perry, it has been the Industry with the advent of Shale technology that has brought us closer to that in just 10 of those years.
   Sell all excess Oil/LPG after the SPR is full.
   IMHO at this rate of technological advancement, Oil will be the new coal within 20 years, hell we'll be broke anyway by then, so it won't matter.


   My main point was that for the common American out there that travels a lot for job or family these gas prices are eating into his/her bottom line more so than usual.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

@IsailedawayfromFR
 ALL good points and I'd be the first to admit that I have a tendency to try and encapsulate deep thoughts in as few of words as possible, most always lost in (my own) translation.


   To clarify my points and attempt not to dig my hole deeper,  #1 and 2, I'm just to cynical to believe my letters could ever make a difference to those ba$bleep. 

   And to further believe I'm possibly addressing your 3 & 4: 

   Our Gov created the DOE in 74, 45 friggin years ago with the expressed written consent to reduce our independence on Foreign Oil, They failed miserably. After Trillions and now Perry, it has been the Industry with the advent of Shale technology that has brought us closer to that in just 10 of those years.
   Sell all excess Oil/LPG after the SPR is full.
   IMHO at this rate of technological advancement, Oil will be the new coal within 20 years, hell we'll be broke anyway by then, so it won't matter.


   My main point was that for the common American out there that travels a lot for job or family these gas prices are eating into his/her bottom line more so than usual.

I understand your points.  My main point is that gas prices are not all that high.  Look at the graph again.  Federal gas tax was only 3 cents per gallon in 1983 and has risen 600% since while the price of gasoline has not.  The bastard govt raised all gasoline taxes during the period when gasoline prices were at historical lows in the 80s and 90s to where they are today, believing the public will meekly accept without complaint.

The DOE has indeed failed miserably other than adding thousands of employees and billions of dollars onto the backs of Americans.

Their entire charge has morphed more into handling atomic energy issues, particularly in environmental protection and with the DOD, as well as during the past 20 years into ridiculous schemes in alternative energy research and grants.

OE Programs FY19 ($M)
• National Nuclear Security Administration 15,091
• Science 5,391
• Energy 2,515
• Environmental Management 6,601
• Other Defense Activities 853
• Administration and Oversight 293
• Savings and Receipts -137
DOE Total 30,609

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2018/02/f48/DOE-FY2019-Budget-Fact-Sheet.pdf

[corbe]

   I overlooked your point about the Federal/State Taxes being levied on this precious commodity @IsailedawayfromFR because every time I go to Houston I see massive interstate highway projects going on so I suppose Texas is getting back somewhat that we pay in.
   It's been mostly a travesty since Spindletop with big gov regulation/taxes and will probably NOT be unraveled in our lifetime.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

   I overlooked your point about the Federal/State Taxes being levied on this precious commodity @IsailedawayfromFR because every time I go to Houston I see massive interstate highway projects going on so I suppose Texas is getting back somewhat that we pay in.
   It's been mostly a travesty since Spindletop with big gov regulation/taxes and will probably NOT be unraveled in our lifetime.

Those highway tax revenues do not all go to fixing or making new highways.
Where do your gas tax dollars go? A big chunk does not fund Texas roads
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/investigations/defenders/where-do-your-gas-tax-dollars-go-a-big-chunk-does-not-fund-texas-roads/269-518969781

Also, have you noticed the amount of new toll roads that are also being constructed?  They have their own revenue stream.