Author Topic: Trump drops a bombshell on immigration, and no one bothers to report it  (Read 13572 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Don't subscribe to Adam Smith, eh?

I don't subscribe to fantasy.  Why, in an unregulated market, would an insurance company insure against predictable costs?   

Consider the difference between medical insurance and dental insurance.   The former is true insurance - rates are set (broadly speaking) without regard to individual health status and insurers set premiums based on pools of individuals both healthy and sick.   But that's because regulations require them to.   Left unregulated,  why would any insurer cover pre-existing conditions?   Of course, the rub is that enough healthy folks need to be in the pool to provide the financial foundation for affordable insurance.   And that in turn has led to the age-old problem of free riders.   If I could save insurance premiums while I'm healthy and jump back into the pool as soon as I get sick,  I'd rationally choose to do just that.   

Dental "insurance" isn't true insurance, it's just a gussied up prepayment plan.   That's because hardly anyone is "healthy" when it comes to dental costs -  the costs are largely predictable and recurring so benefits are limited and capped.

The ObamaCare mandate may have offended conservatives by denying folks the "liberty" to be free riders, but it was actually the one aspect of OCare that I could support ideologically.   The problem with OCare isn't the individual mandate, it was the nature of the individual coverage required - far too gold-plated and expensive.   I'd favor a fully  opened up and competitive health insurance market, with the only minimum requirement being that folks have to be insured against catastrophic costs,  coupled with an individual mandate that every citizen participate.   
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Offline skeeter

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I don't subscribe to fantasy.  Why, in an unregulated market, would an insurance company insure against predictable costs?   


Belief in the infallibility of government, given all we've seen across the world during the past 100 years, is more of a fantasy than a belief that the market should be allowed to work the way it naturally is inclined to work.

If the market were allowed to work, not only in the insurance industry but the medical industry, with MINIMUM government interference, there would not be NEARLY the problem we have now.


Offline INVAR

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I'd favor a fully  opened up and competitive health insurance market, with the only minimum requirement being that folks have to be insured against catastrophic costs,  coupled with an individual mandate that every citizen participate.   

You already got what you wanted.

It doesn't work, Communism never does, even though you support and push for it under the rubric of "Conservatism".

As to your request that 'every citizen "participate"' - just like your gun registration and insurance idea: I will not comply or "participate" by having you put a gun to our heads in order to force participation.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Thanks, @Once-Ler .   This thread has been educational for me, especially @LauraTXNM 's research into the disparity between the 80-million fear number thrown out by @Chosen Daughter to justify her rants against immigrants and the far more modest number of Americans counted by the DOL as actively looking for work.   

And I'll repeat - the discussion would be improved if the topics of legal immigration, political refugees, and illegal immigration could be separated.   Support for legal immigration and/or compassionate treatment of political refugees should not be interpreted as tolerance of lawbreaking.   

Wow, I must be working too hard because I don't remember giving that number.  I think its you though.  Must have me confused with someone else.  Since you have so much time to insult all the  lazy Americans maybe you have some time to go back in the thread and find where you stole the number from.

As for a job for every American goes.  Lie, lie, lie!  The whole problem with the idea that we need more legal immigration to fill jobs is that we don't even know how many illegal immigrants are in the country.  All of those people need and will take jobs too.  Secondly not all jobs fit everyone.  You would have to know what kind of work people are trained or educated to do.  An undereducated person without an Engineering degree is not going to be an Engineer.  Car wash isn't for the Engineer either.  I do Electronics but I don't write software or design....LOL!



AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline LauraTXNM

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A more useful economic indicator is to count the number of people working, not the number not working.  When a person retires, is their job phased out?  Or is it filled by one of the ones you mentioned above?

The bottom line is that it has become prohibitively expensive to hire full time workers primarily because of health insurance mandates.  Employers are looking for ways to replace workers through automation or doing without them entirely.

@Hoodat, Sorry I'm replying late.  As AI, robots, and automation become more prevalent, what do you think will happen to the replaced workers?  Will we need to "make work" for people?  Or will new industries organically create new jobs?
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline LauraTXNM

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@Chosen Daughter @Jazzhead  Yep, I'm the one who brought up 80M working-age Americans not in the employment pool.  And it's actually 95M as of 2015/2016. 

But the Americans not actively seeking work pretty much all seem accounted for, with the possible exception of @5M.  So it seems to be a red herring.  The 6M who are actively seeking work is another issue.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline sneakypete

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@Hoodat, Sorry I'm replying late.  As AI, robots, and automation become more prevalent, what do you think will happen to the replaced workers?  Will we need to "make work" for people?  Or will new industries organically create new jobs?

@LauraTXNM

Most of those factory workers will never again find another job. "Drone work" that requires no thinking or special skills is being phased out by automation. After all,machines never call in sick,not show up and not call in,go on strike for higher wages and more benefits,and never do sloppy work because they are bored or hung over.

Don't misunderstand me. Factory workers in general are as smart as any other group of workers,but they have no real ambition other than to find the simplest job possible, and work it until they die or retire. That was not only ok but was both necessary and desirable in the manual labor age,when pretty much everything being manufactured had to have humans involved at every step of the process and it was possible to live a self-sufficient life and save money on the wages paid.

Then the socialists/communists got involved in running the goobermint under King Franklin,and all the parasite programs were initiated. Programs that needed tax money to finance them,and the increase in personal as well as business taxes  kept driving the prices up so wages had to be increased to keep up with the taxes. Socialism/communism is a upside down Ponzi Scheme that promises to pay more people for doing less,and "it's not going to cost anybody anything unless they are rich." "Rich",of course being defined as "anyone who earns a dollar a week more than you do."

What all that socialist screeching actually accomplished was to hasten the rush to automation. Suddenly it was possible to run a factory with 12 technicians to keep the machines adjusted,instead of hundreds of "human cogs in the machine" that kept demanding higher wages and less work.

Unfortunately for everyone in America,even those jobs are now only available in Asia. What HAD been profitable small factories went bankrupt,and all those workers became unemployed with no job possibilities in sight. Most of those workers didn't even/don't even have the assets or the ability to move to where new jobs might be,or to where they can further their educations and/or job skills to allow them to "play" at a higher level. So they sit at home and draw unemployment,and eventually welfare and food stamps. Which in turn causes taxes to be raised on those still working and in turn puts THEM out of work,too.

We are rapidly heading towards a real world situation where most of the working class population have no work to go to. Even if we are optimistic and think "only" 50 percent of the work force will be affected,that's enough to bankrupt the system. For those of you who think studying history is "stoopid",that has been the root of every revolution in history.

Ultimately,there are only two possible results,violent revolution or mandatory birth control for working-class people. The mandatory birth control program has been in effect in a limited way for a couple of decades now. White people have been culturally and socially conditioned to have smaller families for all the reasons stated,even if those reasons weren't outright stated.

Meanwhile,black and brown people have been encouraged to move onto the Dim Plantation and have all the children they can pump out while living in public housing,and getting free food,utilities,clothing,medical care,and schooling if they want it. All in return for their votes for "New Communism that will REALLY work this time! Honest!"  The people at the top pushing this KNOW it will never work,but the angry rioters will need someone to blame once the time comes to riot in the streets,and it damn sure ain't going to be the investment bankers that want and need systems to go bankrupt so they can buy it all up at pennies on a dollar and start all over again,with "The New and Improved World Order,Inc".

Once that happens,there will be no more public housing projects. There will me labor camps with guards,and the laborers working for food,clothing,and shelter,plus the bonus of being allowed to keep living.

What little middle-class will be composed entirely of government employees. HEY! SOMEBODY has to keep the trains running on time,right?

What will pass for management/white collar workers will come from the ranks of the middle-class line supervisors who have proven their loyalty to  the system.

And then there will be the Master Class that run and benefit from everything.

To be followed in time by violent revolution and hangings/beheadings of the the ruling classes in the streets. Think "21st Century French Revolution" and you won't be far off the mark.

And the whole cycle will start again,

Don't believe me? Take a drive across your state while avoiding the interstate highway,and stick to state roads that travel through what were once small towns that are now ghost towns. Those factories and jobs are gone,and they won't be coming back.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 10:50:40 am by sneakypete »
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Online roamer_1

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And the whole cycle will start again,

Don't believe me? Take a drive across your state while avoiding the interstate highway,and stick to state roads that travel through what were once small towns that are now ghost towns. Those factories and jobs are gone,and they won't be coming back.

That's not the problem. The problem is that government has made it nigh on impossible to innovate. There is always more work. There are always new ways and ideas. It is clearing the way to implement those things that will bring back jobs. Make it easy to own a company. make it easy to start up. Promote the entrepreneur.

Online Cyber Liberty

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@Hoodat, Sorry I'm replying late.  As AI, robots, and automation become more prevalent, what do you think will happen to the replaced workers?  Will we need to "make work" for people?  Or will new industries organically create new jobs?

Interesting questions.  I pondered similar questions a long time ago, in my youth.  I was living in Southern Michigan at the time, and robotics were starting to have a major impact on automobile manufacturing.  The question to me was, "How do I find a place in that?"  "Design and program robots!" was the answer for me.

I went into semiconductor manufacturing, and I've been using automated test equipment.  I've been cashing the checks my whole life, and will retire in a few years.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 12:19:36 am by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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@Chosen Daughter @Jazzhead  Yep, I'm the one who brought up 80M working-age Americans not in the employment pool.  And it's actually 95M as of 2015/2016. 

But the Americans not actively seeking work pretty much all seem accounted for, with the possible exception of @5M.  So it seems to be a red herring.  The 6M who are actively seeking work is another issue.

I thought that it was you that posted the information.  I see Jazzhead hasn't been here to acknowledge it.  He was having fun being his inflammatory self.  He hasn't responded to my last post either.  He makes it so simple but it isn't.  I am glad that unemployment is going down.  That perhaps is a very positive indication that Trump is making a difference in the economy.  And as I said I will give him the credit where credit is due.

However he needs to take the bull by the horn and stop this judicial overreach going on.  I see no indication for a need of additional immigration being that DACA is still alive and well due to legislating from the bench.  With all the DACA immigrants and their families there is plenty of immigrant pool for corporations.  Until Trump is able to stop this injustice against the American people,........just plain no.  No Mr. President.  Send people home then assess any need for additional green cards.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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@Jazzhead

How Unskilled Immigrants Hurt Our Economy

A handful of industries get low-cost labor, and the taxpayers foot the bill.

Steven Malanga
Summer 2006
The Social Order; California

The day after Librado Velasquez arrived on Staten Island after
 a long, surreptitious journey from his Chiapas, Mexico, home, he headed out to a street corner
 to wait with other illegal
 immigrants looking for work. Velasquez, who had supported his wife, seven kids, and his in-laws as a campesino, or peasant farmer, until a 1998 hurricane devastated his farm, eventually got work, off the books, loading trucks at a small New Jersey factory, which hired illegals for jobs that required few special skills. The arrangement suited both, until a work injury sent Velasquez to the local emergency room, where federal law required that he be treated, though he could not afford to pay for his care. After five operations, he is now permanently disabled and has remained in the United States to pursue compensation claims.

“I do not have the use of my leg without walking with a cane, and I do not have strength in my arm in order to lift things,”
Velasquez said through an interpreter at New York City Council hearings. “I have no other way to live except if I receive some other type of compensation. I need help, and I thought maybe my son could come and work here and support me here in the United States.”

Velasquez’s story illustrates some of the fault lines in the nation’s current, highly charged, debate on immigration. Since the mid-1960s, America has welcomed nearly 30 million legal immigrants and received perhaps another 15 million illegals, numbers unprecedented in our history. These immigrants have picked our fruit, cleaned our homes, cut our grass, worked in our factories, and washed our cars. But they have also crowded into our hospital emergency rooms, schools, and government-subsidized aid programs, sparking a fierce debate about their contributions to our society and the costs they impose on it.

Advocates of open immigration argue that welcoming the Librado Velasquezes of the world is essential for our American economy: our businesses need workers like him, because we have a shortage of people willing to do low-wage work. Moreover, the free movement of labor in a global economy pays off for the United States, because immigrants bring skills and capital that expand our economy and offset immigration’s costs. Like tax cuts, supporters argue, immigration pays for itself.

But the tale of Librado Velasquez helps show why supporters are wrong about today’s immigration, as many Americans sense and so much research has demonstrated. America does not have a vast labor shortage that requires waves of low-wage immigrants to alleviate; in fact, unemployment among unskilled workers is high—about 30 percent. Moreover, many of the unskilled, uneducated workers now journeying here labor, like Velasquez, in shrinking industries, where they force out native workers, and many others work in industries where the availability of cheap workers has led businesses to suspend investment in new technologies that would make them less labor-intensive.

Yet while these workers add little to our
 economy, they come at great cost, because they are not economic abstractions but human beings, with their own culture and ideas—often at odds with our own. Increasing numbers of them arrive with little education and none of the skills necessary to succeed in a modern economy. Many may wind up stuck on our lowest economic rungs, where they will rely on something that immigrants of other generations didn’t have: a vast U.S. welfare and social-services apparatus that has enormously amplified the cost of immigration. Just as welfare reform and other policies are helping to shrink America’s underclass by weaning people off such social programs, we are importing a new, foreign-born underclass. As famed free-market economist Milton Friedman puts it: “It’s just obvious that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state.”

Immigration can only pay off again for America if we reshape our policy, organizing it around what’s good for the economy by welcoming workers we truly need and excluding those who, because they have so little to offer, are likely to cost us more than they contribute, and who will struggle for years to find their place here.

Hampering today’s immigration debate are our misconceptions about the so-called first great migration some 100 years ago, with which today’s immigration is often compared. We envision that first great migration as a time when multitudes of Emma Lazarus’s “tired,” “poor,” and “wretched refuse” of Europe’s shores made their way from destitution to American opportunity. Subsequent studies of American immigration with titles like The Uprooted convey the same impression of the dispossessed and displaced swarming here to find a new life. If America could assimilate 24 million mostly desperate immigrants from that great migration—people one unsympathetic economist at the turn of the twentieth century described as “the unlucky, the thriftless, the worthless”—surely, so the story goes, today’s much bigger and richer country can absorb the millions of Librado Velasquezes now venturing here.

But that argument distorts the realities of
 the first great migration.
Though fleeing persecution or economic stagnation in their homelands, that era’s immigrants—Jewish tailors and seamstresses who helped create New York’s garment industry, Italian stonemasons and bricklayers who helped build some of our greatest buildings, German merchants, shopkeepers, and artisans—all brought important skills with them that fit easily into the American economy. Those waves of immigrants—many of them urban dwellers who crossed a continent and an ocean to get here—helped supercharge the workforce at a time when the country was going through a transformative economic expansion that craved new workers, especially in its cities. A 1998 National Research Council report noted “that the newly arriving immigrant nonagricultural work force . . . was (slightly) more skilled than the resident American labor force”: 27 percent of them were skilled laborers, compared with only 17 percent of that era’s native-born workforce..........................continue.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-unskilled-immigrants-hurt-our-economy-12946.html

Highlighted date of article.  12 years ago they were writing the truth of the matter but we as a country have continued to sock it to the tax payer for the sake of politics and corporate greed.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 07:00:38 pm by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.