Trump drops a bombshell on immigration, and no one bothers to report it

[Jazzhead]

@sneakypete Totally agree!  Plus, you were actually "in the workforce" while studying, and I'm sure a lot of college kids are today.

I'm just trying to figure out
1) if the 95M "non-employed" Americans actually pose a problem and
2) of those receiving benefits, how many are "mooches", speaking with tongue in cheek.

One significant change coming out of the last recession is that record numbers of folks are applying for and receiving Social Security disability.   From what I can see, the cohort that was particularly devastated by the recession were middle-aged men (between the ages of 45 and 65) who lost their steady jobs and either couldn't find comparable work or left the workforce, often to collect disability.

I think the influence of this cohort lies behind the angst felt by many of the folks who supported Donald Trump and his promise to "make America great again".   It is more difficult for an older American to pick up the pieces of his life after he has lost the only job he has ever known, especially in fields such as manufacturing where job creation has lagged due to global competition.   And don't discount the sea changes in tech savvy that are prerequisites for so many new jobs - again, changes that middle aged men have found it difficult to adapt to. 

But some of the areas worst hit by the last recession have come back.  A good example is Elkhart, Indiana, home of the RV industry.  Folks may recall story after story about the devastation in Elkhart, but according to a story I read a couple of weeks ago,  that industry is buzzing and again a hot bed of blue collar work.     

[LauraTXNM]

@sneakypete  Wow, must be nice to be land rich and money rich ;)!  And have such a family history in one place ;).

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete  Wow, must be nice to be land rich and money rich ;)!  And have such a family history in one place ;).

@LauraTXNM

Other than the family history all in one place,it's not something I would want to be born into. Like it or not,the children in each generation were required to work on and expand the farm,and it used to be brutal,backbreaking work. Farmers had huge families because they needed the labor,and knew some would die off early. 100 + years ago and earlier the only way to expand a farm even if someone gave you the land was based on hard labor to clear the fields,plow the land,plant the seeds,and then harvest it and take to to the railhead of port to ship it.

Speaking for me alone,I wouldn't want to be born into one of those families because I wanted to wander,see different things,meet different people,and see how the world and things worked in other places.

Then again,I've never lusted after wealth and in general have always felt sorry for those who see wealth as the most important thing in the world.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

@Jazzhead and @LauraTXNM
Just wanted you to know I'm still reading and very appreciative for your efforts.   The effectiveness of your posts are reflected in the animosity of the replies but make no mistake, people are deeply contemplating your comments..

[LauraTXNM]

@sneakypete  It was really lovely to read your post ;). 

Up until this generation, my family was all together, so I think I'm a bit nostalgic for the sense of place and family stories and memory.  I agree, I'm not that interested in wealth.  But I've heard too many stories about people who had land with family history attached and a sense of obligation to it, who lacked the money to care for it or themselves.  Having both would seem a luxury. 

My grandfather grew up on a farm like the one you describe in 1903.  His grandparents had walked to Texas from Kentucky after the Civil War and started over with land they had to prepare from scratch.  They were strong, hard people; I appreciate them and am pretty sure I could never match up to them.  My grandmother was one of 12 kids in a farm family, too.

Being able to leave home is so important, and I'm not sorry I did it.  But knowing home is there to return to is something I really miss.  I hope you still have your roots there, if you want them.  I hope you've gotten to explore the world as much as you like ;). 

[sneakypete]

@LauraTXNM

I hope you still have your roots there, if you want them.  I hope you've gotten to explore the world as much as you like ;). 

I have no living family other than a half-brother in Ca that I didn't even meet until I was in my 60's.

I did manage to do a fair bit of traveling and exploring in Asia while in the army,and a bit of wandering in the US after getting discharged. I even went to Russia twice right after the collapse of the USSR,and was going to try to go back and buy a Ural motorcycle with a driven wheel sidecar to spend a month or so touring some smaller cities and then going back again and going to Hungry and Poland to do some research of interest to me there,but came down with COPD and didn't have the wind to walk from the house to the truck without blacking out at times,never mind do any tour walking. I almost doubled my weight over the next 3 years as I sat on my ass and gasped for breath. It's been a long and slow process,but I am finally breathing a little better now,and have lost 50 lbs. Still ain't doing any tapdancing or entering and marathons,but I can now walk for up to 100 yards at a time before I start getting winded. When you consider I was blacking out unconscious in the yard while trying to walk 50 feet from the house to the truck a few years ago,that is an enormous improvement.

When I lose another 50 lbs,I might even start riding my Harley again. After rebuilding it,of course. It's been sitting for over 15 years. I really miss road trips.

[LauraTXNM]

Oh, @sneakypete, I'm really sorry you've been so ill.  COPD is horrible, and I haven't known anyone who came back from it.  My mother was 78, but my sister was only 56.  You must be very strong.  I'm sorry you've lost your family; mine is gone now, too, so I get maudlin about this stuff.

I really hope you can complete your comeback and start really enjoying yourself again.  You sound like you deserve it.

[sneakypete]

Oh, @sneakypete, I'm really sorry you've been so ill.  COPD is horrible, and I haven't known anyone who came back from it.  My mother was 78, but my sister was only 56.  You must be very strong.  I'm sorry you've lost your family; mine is gone now, too, so I get maudlin about this stuff.

I really hope you can complete your comeback and start really enjoying yourself again.  You sound like you deserve it.

@LauraTXNM 

I no longer think I have COPD,either. I think it was just a lazy call by the VA docs,who couldn't be bothered to check any deeper. I have had pneumonia 5 times,and laying down to sleep on the wet jungle floor during the rainy season in the Mountains of VN and Laos didn't do my lungs any good,either. I now think my lungs were just packed with mucus,and I finally coughed out enough of it to be able to breathe a little better. I got the flue a month or so ago,and ended up getting so desperate I started taking Musicinex Extra Strength Expectorant tablets,and coughed up a TON of slime. I can now almost take full breaths for the first time in 15 + years. I cough my head off when I try,but each time I end up coughing up a little more slime. I think my lungs still have a thin coat of mucus on them that is keeping me from absorbing all the oxygen I inhale,but it is slowly getting better. Why none of the docs at the VA have ever suggested an Expectorant over all these years is still a mystery to me.

No,I do NOT think I am going to get back to feeling as good and strong as I was when I was 50,but I will be happy to take whatever I get. Better is better.

[Hoodat]

Ok, I found stats from the Atlanta Federal Reserve 2015/2016:

"-- 94.6 million people above the age of 16 were out of the workforce.
Of those:
-- 44.5 million were retired.
-- 14.5 million were in school or job training.
-- 12.8 million were taking care of a loved one.
-- 15.3 million weren't working because of an illness or disability.
In all, of the 94.6 million not working, 87.1 million were retired, in school, taking care of a loved one or physically unable to work.
That leaves 7.5 million people. What about them?
Of those, 1.6 million had looked for a job in the past year or wanted a job but had given up searching for more than a year. And 5.9 million workers listed "other" as a reason for not wanting or having a job. We don't know much about these workers."

I'm not sure if self-employed people and business owners are included in the 5.9M (or if they actually count as "non-working" at all). 

But 5.9M people who are not in the workforce for an unknown reason -- is that so bad?  Presumably not all of them are receiving governmental support.

A more useful economic indicator is to count the number of people working, not the number not working.  When a person retires, is their job phased out?  Or is it filled by one of the ones you mentioned above?

The bottom line is that it has become prohibitively expensive to hire full time workers primarily because of health insurance mandates.  Employers are looking for ways to replace workers through automation or doing without them entirely.

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead and @LauraTXNM
Just wanted you to know I'm still reading and very appreciative for your efforts.   The effectiveness of your posts are reflected in the animosity of the replies but make no mistake, people are deeply contemplating your comments..

Thanks, @Once-Ler .   This thread has been educational for me, especially @LauraTXNM 's research into the disparity between the 80-million fear number thrown out by @Chosen Daughter to justify her rants against immigrants and the far more modest number of Americans counted by the DOL as actively looking for work.   

And I'll repeat - the discussion would be improved if the topics of legal immigration, political refugees, and illegal immigration could be separated.   Support for legal immigration and/or compassionate treatment of political refugees should not be interpreted as tolerance of lawbreaking.   

[Jazzhead]

The bottom line is that it has become prohibitively expensive to hire full time workers primarily because of health insurance mandates.  Employers are looking for ways to replace workers through automation or doing without them entirely.

In a global economy,  American workers compete with their overseas counterparts.  And more to the point,  American employers who must pay not only their employees' wages but their health insurance premiums as well must compete with employers in other industrialized nations where health care financing is provided by means of general taxation, and not dumped on employers as their sole responsibility. 

[driftdiver]

In a global economy,  American workers compete with their overseas counterparts.  And more to the point,  American employers who must pay not only their employees' wages but their health insurance premiums as well must compete with employers in other industrialized nations where health care financing is provided by means of general taxation, and not dumped on employers as their sole responsibility.

@Jazzhead
More globalist BS.   American workers don't compete globally, American companies do.   Labor is a local resource.   And its really not even that big of an issue.   The classic example of the Apple iPhone that would cost about $7 more to produce in the US then in the slave work camps of China.   No its regulation and corporate taxes that make up a far bigger portion of the price.

Nationalized healthcare is paid for through taxes, which either the corporations or people have to pay.  While its a major issue for unskilled low wage workers its really only a part of the compensation plan for highly skilled people.   

Dumped on employers, lol.   Yeah maybe the govt should just take over all pay and benefits for the works to relieve the burden from the employer.

[Jazzhead]

Dumped on employers, lol.   Yeah maybe the govt should just take over all pay and benefits for the works to relieve the burden from the employer.

Do you really believe it is efficient to base a health care financing system on employment?   Why, other than the fact that it's the good ol' American way,  should my access to health care financing be based on the luck of whether I happen to have a "good" job?   

[skeeter]

Do you really believe it is efficient to base a health care financing system on employment?   Why, other than the fact that it's the good ol' American way,  should my access to health care be based on the luck of whether I happen to have a "good" job?

I'm self employed and I have access to health care. And the government has nothing to do with it, other than to make it far, far more expensive than it should be.

Next fallacious argument.

[Jazzhead]

More globalist BS.   American workers don't compete globally, American companies do.   

Yes, and lots of American companies have closed their U.S. factories and moved 'em abroad. 

The cost of labor varies significantly among nations like ours,  that require adherence to minimum wage, worker safety and environmental rules,  and nations that don't (or don't require rules as robust as ours).   

My solution is an old one with a modern twist - apolitical tariffs on manufactured products based on the objective differential between a country's effective cost of labor and ours.   

[Jazzhead]

I'm self employed and I have access to health care. And the government has nothing to do with it, other than to make it far, far more expensive than it should be.

Next fallacious argument.

I made a mistake in my haste to type my post above.   I meant to say access to "health care financing",  not access to "health care".   I have corrected my post.   

[driftdiver]

Do you really believe it is efficient to base a health care financing system on employment?   Why, other than the fact that it's the good ol' American way,  should my access to health care be based on the luck of whether I happen to have a "good" job?

@Jazzhead
Heck no, people should be able to buy whatever insurance they feel they need at market competitive rates.  Insurance should be a product you buy based on a national market.   So insurance companies can't force people into artificial billing groups which inflate the users cost.

The insurance industry as a whole is one of two primary reasons for the cost of healthcare, the other being frivolous lawsuits.  Although an argument could be made for the cost of govt regulations the healthcare industry has to comply with.   

Why should a person paying cash be forced to pay double or triple what the insurance company pays for the exact same procedure?   Why are some doctors prohibited from taking cash patients?  Because of laws pushed through by insurance companies.

Insurance companies are not the solution to healthcare costs.  They are the problem.

[skeeter]

I made a mistake in my haste to type my post above.   I meant to say access to "health care financing",  not access to "health care".   I have corrected my post.   

Then my comment is even more relevant. I still buy my own insurance, in spite of the government seeking to 'help' me by tripling its cost (and seriously degrading its quality) since 2012.

BTW your solution to the unfair advantage caused by int'l labor rate differential is interesting & will require more thought.

[driftdiver]

Yes, and lots of American companies have closed their U.S. factories and moved 'em abroad. 

The cost of labor varies significantly among nations like ours,  that require adherence to minimum wage, worker safety and environmental rules,  and nations that don't (or don't require rules as robust as ours).   

My solution is an old one with a modern twist - apolitical tariffs on manufactured products based on the objective differential between a country's effective cost of labor and ours.

@Jazzhead
In china a furniture manufacturer can dump their waste chemicals out back in the alley.   In the US they have to properly dispose of them.   There is a significant cost associated with disposal.   This is only one example of why manufacturing has moved to China.

Here is an example of steel workers in China making a large flange. 

 
http://youtu.be/_0bbTZrcYMc

[txradioguy]

@Jazzhead
In china a furniture manufacturer can dump their waste chemicals out back in the alley.   In the US they have to properly dispose of them.   There is a significant cost associated with disposal.   This is only one example of why manufacturing has moved to China.

Here is an example of steel workers in China making a large flange. 

 
http://youtu.be/_0bbTZrcYMc

The demands of the labor unions in the U.S. don't help things either.

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead
Heck no, people should be able to buy whatever insurance they feel they need at market competitive rates.

LOL!   An unregulated insurance market means only healthy people will be able to afford insurance. 

[skeeter]

LOL!   An unregulated insurance market means only healthy people will be able to afford insurance.

Don't subscribe to Adam Smith, eh?

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead
In china a furniture manufacturer can dump their waste chemicals out back in the alley.   In the US they have to properly dispose of them.   There is a significant cost associated with disposal.   This is only one example of why manufacturing has moved to China.

It is differences like that which lie behind my advocacy of apolitical tariffs tied to objectively measurable differences in labor and environmental safety costs.   

[Oceander]

LOL!   An unregulated insurance market means only healthy people will be able to afford insurance. 

No. 

[Sanguine]

LOL!   An unregulated insurance market means only healthy people will be able to afford insurance.

Ummmm, yeah, that's pretty much definitional of "insurance".