Author Topic: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’  (Read 53157 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #875 on: April 09, 2018, 10:22:20 am »
I for one do not want to use Europe as a model.  Unless it's croissants, wine or cheese they have screwed up everything they've touched for centuries.  That's why we left the old country and made this new country.  With few exceptions they have shown themselves perfectly willing to give everything to the govt.

Only one political mindset in the U.S. wants us to be more like Europe.

Surprised it took this long for the disguise to come off. 
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #876 on: April 09, 2018, 01:25:36 pm »
@LauraTXNM ,  thanks for the information you provided.  I hadn't been aware of the Czech example;  it is interesting to see a nation with a history of gun bans under totalitarian regimes embrace a gun-friendly regime that still incorporates licensure and registration.   Without confiscation. 

But I knew from the start what the reaction would be to @Smokin Joe 's invitation to go snipe hunting.   If you provide examples of registration without confiscation,  it is never enough, and besides,  there's no confiscation "yet".  And if you provide European examples,  they're invalid because, after all, we're special and different.   *****rollingeyes*****
We are special and different, in case you didn't notice.
Most Conservative Americans believe that, and History bears it out. I believe in American Exceptionalism, born of our inherent love for freedom from unnecessary government meddling in our lives, and the freedom to innovate, secure in our person, papers, and effects (including the means to defend them). Unlike other countries which have had 50 or fewer years of domestic peace, despite our little civil incidents we haven't been invaded since the Mexicans did in the early 1900s. Few nations on Earth can claim that century of relative security. The Swiss can, but they are armed to the teeth, with full-auto capable rifles stored by legal mandate in the homes along with enough ammo to fight their way to the local armory---something we don't even have. Other nations are rediscovering the RKBA, but following a generally more American model, yet in the UK they are discussing knife control....I guess there is no real threat there of bringing one to a gun fight.
We saved Europe's bacon twice, in WWI AND WWII--not only the breadbasket of the free world, but the 'Arsenal of Democracy' as well. Part of that arsenal was effective enough during that era, for 'behind every blade of grass' there would be a rifle waiting for any invading force. We exist, as a nation by force of arms and preserved that union through the same force, whatever one makes of that event. Yet it has remained fundamental from the Battles of Lexington and Concord (instigated by British troops moving to confiscate arms and ammunition from the colonists) that Americans are, and will remain so long as there is a recognizable America, Armed.

As for registration schemes, we have laws which usurp power as it is: One administration stops a pipeline, one lets it be completed, the political winds blow spuriously and from different directions depending on which Party is in control, and sometimes they do not blow nearly hard enough along the reciprocal course.

On the issue of firearms, though, the list of infringements on the Right is long, has ever grown, each time with yet another scheme which will make the world safe, the birds sing, the sun shine and enable your children to walk through the worst part of town at night safely. Only that fiction that was used to justify yet another layer of onerous infringements on the Rights of firearm owners still fails to be realized, and yet another proposed. Note, if you will, the Clinton Era "Assault Weapons Ban" which had little to no effect on crime.
Note that the NFA of 1934 was going to make everyone safe by limiting access to entire classes of firearms and devices. Well, that didn't work, so double down, and after a significant war, a couple of assassinations, and a good dose of the 'red scare' another act was passed in 1968 which reqired a bunch of paperwork to get a firearm. Then NICS checks and th prohibition of newly manufactured fully automatic arms being acquired by any but military, LEOs, or licensed dealers of machine and submachine guns. (The effect of that, while technically not keeping someone from the general public who went through the paperwork, background checks, paid the transfer tax, etc. was that the AK-47, the select fire most common combat rifle in the world went in price from the $300 it costs elsewhere in the world to nearly 10K--if you can find one which has not been worn out, because if it was manufactured after 1982, you, average person, can't have it.
Did that make the streets any safer? No. Because criminals won't comply with that law either. Breaking laws is how they roll, and one more doesn't mean jack to them.

Those NICS provisions (and other, later ones) were thwarted, most notoriously, not by hardened criminals, but BY THE VERY AGENCIES TASKED WITH ENFORCING THEM in a scheme known as "Fast and Furious" or operation gunwalker, which effectively facilitated the transfer of semiautomatic firearms to street gangs and drug cartel straw buyers, in quantities which would have tripped flags for the average person (take delivery on two identical firearms in one day and you may well get a 'visit' to verify you bought them for you, if the purchase isn't denied, too).
At least according to some sources, the purpose of that operation (which had no chance of tracing those firearms until they were recovered from crime scenes or as a result of searches after an arrest) was to flood the Mexican market with 'legally' purchased weapons which would be likely to be used in crimes so the statistics could come a little closer to reflecting the media meme that American sold firearms were part and parcel of the Cartel crime wave in Mexico, for the further purpose of imposing further restrictions on the RKBA of American gun owners, done by the Obama Administration.
It isn't just the Obama Administration at play, here but Federal Agency bureaucratic mindsets which have persisted for decades and are easily revived when the Administration is favorable to such. 
You want me to trust the architects and purveyors of such incidents as the M.O.V.E. fire bombing in Philadelphia, the Ruby Ridge incident, the Waco Massacre (parts I and II), and numerous other incidents which indicate a fundamental distrust of the government agencies which are supposed to be holding our Rights inviolate is a good thing.  Under the Clintons, after the passage of the act requiring background checks through the NICS system, the BATF was compiling a database (registry) of background checks, rather than disposing of that information within 24 hours as required by law.
With the amount of surveillance being conducted on telecommunications, who knows what the government has illegally compiled using the destination numbers of the NICS system to do so?

When a government has proven itself to be less than trustworthy with such information, I, for one, am not about to sanction it collecting such data--nor the fees which it will inevitably charge for the 'service'. As a taxpayer, you, too, will have to shell out for the staff and equipment to keep such a scheme going, and there is no guarantee that that information would be secure. For the enterprising, databases of who owns what sorts of firearms in a given area could be marketable information for those interested in making a living off of larceny, not just the Government agencies who want to kick some doors and ass to work off their roid rage.

I have a solution. Just say "No.". Save the money, the incidents, the hostility, and the creation of a huge criminal class of non compliant but otherwise law abiding firearm owners. Save the lives lost or destroyed by inevitable conflict.

Note, too, that none of the above measures have really been credited for reducing crime so much as the continuing increase in the number of Americans who carry concealed. Rules on paper don't matter to a criminal, but the general uncertainty of confronting a target who might well be carrying the lethal means of self-defense is a consideration that is up close and personal, and a true deterrent.
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Offline verga

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #877 on: April 09, 2018, 01:33:01 pm »
@Cyber Liberty
Great post!!!  (Though I don't think poor judicial appointments are limited to Democratic administrations -- look at last year's nominees alone.)
2 words: Ninth Circuit.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #878 on: April 10, 2018, 02:27:56 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin , we may rarely agree but I always appreciate it when you respond to my posts.

Same here.  @Jazzhead

Quote
I think where we differ is that you appear to have never gotten comfortable with the 14th amendment.   The 14th is the most significant amendment since the first ten,  since it fundamentally altered the relationship of the States to the Federal Constitution.

Before the 14th,  it is indeed true that the States could confiscate your guns,  throw you in jail for criticizing the government, and deny you the practice of your religion.    Putting aside for a moment the question of enumerated rights vs. unenumerated rights,  the Federal Constitution was largely irrelevant to the States; it certainly placed no brakes on a State's denial of one's fundamental, natural liberties.   

With the 14th,  the States became obliged to protect the same rights as recognized by the Federal Constitution.... As a lover of individual liberty,  I view the 14th amendment as correcting the original Constitution's most significant flaw.

To this point, I have zero disagreement.  But I would point out that what the 14th was intended to do was to take some of their power away from the states, and give more to the Federal government.  Specifically, the power to prevent the states from engaging in behaviors from which the federal government itself was barred.  Do we agree on that?

I would add only that the 14th still did not do everything I would like to have seen done.  The Constitution was still (and is still) an imperfect document.  And we should be interpreting it in that manner, as occasionally still requiring Amendment as desired by citizens.

Quote
(and let's not forget, the 14th itself created a new enumerated right - the right to the due process of law.)

Quite right.  It required that states have the same procedural protections as did the federal government -- so all the parts of the Fourth, Fifth Amendment and Sixth Amendments dealing with that process.  Requirements for warrants, non-self incrimination, speedy trial, etc..   Pretty straight-forward.


Quote
As for limiting the Constitution's protections to enumerated rights,  I must disagree with you.   The foundation of the Constitution's protection of un-enumerated rights derives directly from the Ninth Amendment and the concept, trumpeted by many on this board, that we have a slate of inalienable natural rights.   Among these are the rights of individual self defense,  individual self-determination, and individual privacy.

I'm trying to figure out how to do this without taking up too much space....  I suppose I'll start by saying that the Framers were very smart guys - many of them were lawyers who understood the need for clarity/certainty in legal documents, which is what the Constitution most certainly is.  Yet, they never used the phrase "natural rights" anywhere in the Constitution, very likely because they no doubt recognized the inherent ambiguity/vagueness of the phrase.  The structure of having a very limited federal government certainly is consistent with an aspirational desire to protect generally such rights, but that is different from using such a vague term in drafting a document intended to have specific legal effects. 

Likewise, the text of the 14th also does not include any mention of the phrase "natural rights".  Had the drafters of that Amendent wanted to say that no state could violate the "natural rights" of any citizen, and chose to leave the interpretation of that phrase open to courts, they could and would have done so.  But again -- lawyers.  They didn't want to draft something as powerful as a Constitutional Amendment without everyone knowing exactly what it would mean when written.  So, they didn't hand the courts a blank check, and didn't include that phrase as something that was constitutionally protected.

Additionally:

1. Haven't you pointed out to others here that there is a difference between "natural rights", and legal rights?   To the extent someone believes in "natural rights", they exist independent of government.  Whether or not a right is legally enforceable is a different question from whether or not it is a "natural right".  In other words, "natural rights", by their vary nature, cannot be changed by the decision of any court.

2.  I have asked you repeatedly what is the standard for determining which un-enumerated rights are so "fundamental" or "natural" that they are covered by the Constitution as currently drafted, and you haven't answered.  And that, really, is the key question that illuminates this entire debate:  Who should decide what is a natural right entitled to legal protection, and what is their basis for making that determination?

3.  Here's the core of what I think is wrong with the "un-enumerated rights" interpretation of the 14th Amendment, and it is suggested by the only possible answer you can have to point 2):  The 14th Amendment was intended to changed the balance of power between the Federal Government and the States.  It was not intended to change the balance of power between the elected Congress/the President on one hand, and unelected judges on the other.  I think if anyone would have suggested that the 14th Amendment was intended to achieve such a fundamental rebalancing of the Constitution's balance of powers, it would have been rejected out of hand.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 02:57:36 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #879 on: April 10, 2018, 02:55:31 pm »
@LauraTXNM ,  thanks for the information you provided.  I hadn't been aware of the Czech example;  it is interesting to see a nation with a history of gun bans under totalitarian regimes embrace a gun-friendly regime that still incorporates licensure and registration.   Without confiscation. 

But I knew from the start what the reaction would be to @Smokin Joe 's invitation to go snipe hunting.   If you provide examples of registration without confiscation,  it is never enough, and besides,  there's no confiscation "yet".  And if you provide European examples,  they're invalid because, after all, we're special and different.   *****rollingeyes*****

I think you are reversing the correct burden of proof on the issue of confiscation.  The question should not be "you have to prove that registration will definitely lead to confiscation", but rather your side should have to prove that won't lead to confiscation.  Now, proving a negative is not easy, but things like the inexorable zero are perfectly fine.  If confiscation following registration was truly rare, and hadn't been attempted in this country at all, I think you'd have a decent argument that concerns about confiscation are unreasonable.  But it should be up to you to put forth facts showing that concerns about confiscation are not reasonable, and you really haven't tried to do that as far as I can tell.

Honestly, I don't think it is possible to do that.  There are simply far too many people in this country openly advocating for broad classes of guns -- not just "assault weapons" -- to be illegal to own.  Some even argue that private gun ownership should be illegal for the vast majority of private citizens.  So I think it would be a pretty tall order to claim that fears of eventual confiscation after registration would be unreasonable.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #880 on: April 10, 2018, 02:58:32 pm »
I think you are reversing the correct burden of proof on the issue of confiscation.  The question should not be "you have to prove that registration will definitely lead to confiscation", but rather your side should have to prove that won't lead to confiscation.  Now, proving a negative is not easy, but things like the inexorable zero are perfectly fine.  If confiscation following registration was truly rare, and hadn't been attempted in this country at all, I think you'd have a decent argument that concerns about confiscation are unreasonable.  But it should be up to you to put forth facts showing that concerns about confiscation are not reasonable, and you really haven't tried to do that as far as I can tell.

Honestly, I don't think it is possible to do that.  There are simply far too many people in this country openly advocating for broad classes of guns -- not just "assault weapons" -- to be illegal to own.  Some even argue that private gun ownership should be illegal for the vast majority of private citizens.  So I think it would be a pretty tall order to claim that fears of eventual confiscation after registration would be unreasonable.

@Maj. Bill Martin
How is registration supposed to reduce gun crime?
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #881 on: April 10, 2018, 03:00:51 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin
How is registration supposed to reduce gun crime?

I don't support registration, but are you asking me to play Devil's Advocate?  I mean, I know the arguments, and they aren't terrible.  It's just that the downside to me isn't worth it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 03:01:52 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #882 on: April 10, 2018, 03:12:28 pm »
I think you are reversing the correct burden of proof on the issue of confiscation.  The question should not be "you have to prove that registration will definitely lead to confiscation", but rather your side should have to prove that won't lead to confiscation.  Now, proving a negative is not easy, but things like the inexorable zero are perfectly fine.  If confiscation following registration was truly rare, and hadn't been attempted in this country at all, I think you'd have a decent argument that concerns about confiscation are unreasonable.  But it should be up to you to put forth facts showing that concerns about confiscation are not reasonable, and you really haven't tried to do that as far as I can tell.

Honestly, I don't think it is possible to do that.  There are simply far too many people in this country openly advocating for broad classes of guns -- not just "assault weapons" -- to be illegal to own.  Some even argue that private gun ownership should be illegal for the vast majority of private citizens.  So I think it would be a pretty tall order to claim that fears of eventual confiscation after registration would be unreasonable.
It isn't possible to prove that negative, because contrary evidence exists, right here on our own shores. Even here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=122091 , it has been noted that some SKS rifles which had been registered as legal were deemed later to be "assault weapons" illegal under California law, and that registry was used to confiscate them and check compliance. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=195

Note also, the discussion in the piece at the second link about CT confiscation law as well.

Nope, no reason to trust that any registry would not be used to confiscate firearms, with mere changes in definition or a list or even just the whim of those deciding what was and wasn't legal--all in strict violation of "...shall not be infringed."

Consider, too, the thought of those registries falling into the hands of a military invader or criminal elements, and all that has been done is create a database of people to round up or rob. No thanks.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #883 on: April 10, 2018, 03:29:20 pm »
It isn't possible to prove that negative, because contrary evidence exists, right here on our own shores. Even here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=122091 , it has been noted that some SKS rifles which had been registered as legal were deemed later to be "assault weapons" illegal under California law, and that registry was used to confiscate them and check compliance. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=195

Note also, the discussion in the piece at the second link about CT confiscation law as well.

Nope, no reason to trust that any registry would not be used to confiscate firearms, with mere changes in definition or a list or even just the whim of those deciding what was and wasn't legal--all in strict violation of "...shall not be infringed."

Consider, too, the thought of those registries falling into the hands of a military invader or criminal elements, and all that has been done is create a database of people to round up or rob. No thanks.

I agree.  I'm just saying that asking @Jazzhead to name one time when it hasn't happened is letting him off too easy.  If he and others believe that law-abiding gun owners should support registration, then proving that confiscation might not happen isn't nearly good enough.  They should have to convince us that our worries are unreasonable/not realistic, and....they can't.  The facts show that it has happened in the U.S., at least on the local level, and that there are plenty of more people advocating for it right now.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #884 on: April 10, 2018, 03:45:39 pm »
I agree.  I'm just saying that asking @Jazzhead to name one time when it hasn't happened is letting him off too easy.  If he and others believe that law-abiding gun owners should support registration, then proving that confiscation might not happen isn't nearly good enough.  They should have to convince us that our worries are unreasonable/not realistic, and....they can't.  The facts show that it has happened in the U.S., at least on the local level, and that there are plenty of more people advocating for it right now.
When one weighs the relative inconvenience of enforcement agencies having to have probable cause to search for weapons versus a ready shopping list, in instances where other crimes are involved (which only makes it more likely that firearms laws have otherwise been ignored as well) against the downside, especially as evidenced in post-Weimar Germany and in other instances of governmental change, the very purpose and intent of the Second Amendment comes into play.

It was not enumerated to protect 'stuff', but to keep governments from having a monopoly on the ability to use force against an unarmed populace, including, but not limited to, our own government.

Considering that the Constitution is the compact by which power, limited in scope and strength was ceded by a willing people to the Federal Government, all other rights and powers not specifically granted to the government remain with the people, save those they specifically granted to their respective States.
Bottom line is that power, those Rights belong to us, not to the Government, which has been specifically denied the power to take them in this instance. Anything which would facilitate that removal of power, by force and under color of law, from the people must be resisted.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #885 on: April 10, 2018, 03:56:13 pm »
I agree.  I'm just saying that asking @Jazzhead to name one time when it hasn't happened is letting him off too easy.  If he and others believe that law-abiding gun owners should support registration, then proving that confiscation might not happen isn't nearly good enough.  They should have to convince us that our worries are unreasonable/not realistic, and....they can't.  The facts show that it has happened in the U.S., at least on the local level, and that there are plenty of more people advocating for it right now.

He and his new partner have a trust of the government I neither understand nor share.  I will not comply with a demand to register.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #886 on: April 10, 2018, 04:13:26 pm »
He and his new partner have a trust of the government I neither understand nor share.  I will not comply with a demand to register.

I won't either, and most of the other gun owners I know laugh at the belief that they would.

Government aside, I personally believe that depriving a citizen of the ability to defend effectively themselves and their family from criminal intruders is fundamentally immoral.  For literally thousands of years, ordinary people feared becoming prey for the strong and the vicious, because they didn't have the ability to protect themselves from physically stronger and/or more numerous raiders.  The police/constabulary simply cannot provide the instant response necessarily to protect most people from those kind of animals.  Guns finally gave the ordinary, peaceful citizens -- including women, the elderly, and the weak/infirm, the ability to protect/deter, because you don't have to be a physical match for an intruder to shoot them.

I'll never give up mine, nor will I facilitate the potential confiscation of mine by registering them with a government that cannot reasonably be trusted never to use that information for confiscation.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 04:21:43 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #887 on: April 10, 2018, 05:16:41 pm »
Only one political mindset in the U.S. wants us to be more like Europe.

Surprised it took this long for the disguise to come off.

@txradioguy
I agree with you.  There's a reason we're Americans.  The Europeans (and Canadians) like to criticize us, but we have dealt with many problems including integration far better than they do.  My Canadian MIL criticizes our immigration policy, and I have a hard time not calling her a hypocrite.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #888 on: April 10, 2018, 05:19:03 pm »
I won't either, and most of the other gun owners I know laugh at the belief that they would.

Government aside, I personally believe that depriving a citizen of the ability to defend effectively themselves and their family from criminal intruders is fundamentally immoral.  For literally thousands of years, ordinary people feared becoming prey for the strong and the vicious, because they didn't have the ability to protect themselves from physically stronger and/or more numerous raiders.  The police/constabulary simply cannot provide the instant response necessarily to protect most people from those kind of animals.  Guns finally gave the ordinary, peaceful citizens -- including women, the elderly, and the weak/infirm, the ability to protect/deter, because you don't have to be a physical match for an intruder to shoot them.

I'll never give up mine, nor will I facilitate the potential confiscation of mine by registering them with a government that cannot reasonably be trusted never to use that information for confiscation.

@Maj. Bill Martin
I think your attitude makes sense and is shared by (obviously) a lot of people.  The "registration" at gun stores seems perfectly adequate to me.  Do you think gun stores keeping records is a problem?
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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #889 on: April 10, 2018, 05:21:13 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin
I think your attitude makes sense and is shared by (obviously) a lot of people.  The "registration" at gun stores seems perfectly adequate to me.  Do you think gun stores keeping records is a problem?

Depends on the gun store owner, IMO.   I have only purchased weapons from stores where I knew the owner and trusted him.  I trust... that if or when TSHTF.... those records will axedentally be burned in a terrible fire.   :whistle:
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #890 on: April 10, 2018, 05:23:36 pm »
Depends on the gun store owner, IMO.   I have only purchased weapons from stores where I knew the owner and trusted him.  I trust... that if or when TSHTF.... those records will axedentally be burned in a terrible fire.   :whistle:

The LGS I use in Louisville is run by former LEO's...I know beyond a doubt any records they have will die in a fire if any kind of registration is implemented.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #891 on: April 10, 2018, 05:26:47 pm »
I don't support registration, but are you asking me to play Devil's Advocate?  I mean, I know the arguments, and they aren't terrible.  It's just that the downside to me isn't worth it.

@Maj. Bill Martin
I was really looking for any real argument FOR registration.  There really isn't a valid argument for it that I can see.   The one argument they use is that it will reduce crime?   How will it reduce crime?  How will forcing every law abiding citizen to register their firearms reduce crime?   Where registration has been implemented the gun crime rate has not been reduced.

If someone argues for it they need to provide real reasons why it would help.  No its about control and as we can see from england it will not stop with guns.   Throughout history govts have tried to ban the peasants from possessing weapons.

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #892 on: April 10, 2018, 05:28:35 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin
I think your attitude makes sense and is shared by (obviously) a lot of people.  The "registration" at gun stores seems perfectly adequate to me.  Do you think gun stores keeping records is a problem?

Well...yes and no.  Yes, they have a record of who bought guns.  But because there is no requirement that sales between non-dealers be recorded, they can't use the fact that you bought the gun from a dealer as legal proof that you still own it.  That's what they'd need to do if they intended to do confiscation by fine/penalty. 

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #893 on: April 10, 2018, 05:29:34 pm »
Depends on the gun store owner, IMO.   I have only purchased weapons from stores where I knew the owner and trusted him.  I trust... that if or when TSHTF.... those records will axedentally be burned in a terrible fire.   :whistle:

@XenaLee
In every recent mass shooting the ATF/FBI has been able to track down the history of the firearm within a day or two.   There is no way to do that if all you have is the firearm. 

I have no doubt they have a record of every recent firearm purchase and it isn't limited to the paper records in the gun store.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #894 on: April 10, 2018, 05:36:01 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin
I was really looking for any real argument FOR registration.  There really isn't a valid argument for it that I can see.   The one argument they use is that it will reduce crime?   How will it reduce crime?  How will forcing every law abiding citizen to register their firearms reduce crime?   Where registration has been implemented the gun crime rate has not been reduced.

Well, I can see a few arguments, some of which have some validity at least on the margins.  First, start with the presumption that most criminals commit more than one crime -- recidivism is quite high.  So, here are some arguments.

1) When a criminal is arrested, you can then confiscate any weapons they own, and you'll know they have them because of registration.  That may make it more difficult for at least some of them to have a weapon with which to commit a future crime.

2) If someone is adjudicated (not just reported/diagnosed) as having a mental illness or condition that actually makes them dangerous to others, you can then check to see if they own any weapons, and confiscate those.   That, also, may prevent them from having easy access to weapons in the future.  If they are not locked up, you can make it a condition of them being free (same with felons) that they also may not live with anyone who owns a weapon.  So, if you want a nutcase who is dangerous to live in your house, you can't have guns they might access.

There are issues with both of those, but I don't doubt that if it was implemented, you'd probably prevent at least some gun related crimes.  But again, I don't believe that the burden registration places on law-abiding citizens is worth it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:37:37 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #895 on: April 10, 2018, 05:40:15 pm »
@XenaLee
In every recent mass shooting the ATF/FBI has been able to track down the history of the firearm within a day or two.   There is no way to do that if all you have is the firearm. 

I have no doubt they have a record of every recent firearm purchase and it isn't limited to the paper records in the gun store.

Well then, there's always the backup plan.... all my guns got lost in a terrible boating axedent.   It's been years since I purchased another one .... and I've slept since then.... so I forget the details of that boating axedent.  Oh well....

And... I don't plan on being involved in any mass shooting.  I specifically mentioned if or when TSHTF... meaning if big government ever starts demanding all gun records from gun owners, with confiscation as their motive.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:42:02 pm by XenaLee »
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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #896 on: April 10, 2018, 05:43:35 pm »
Well, I can see a few arguments, some of which have some validity at least on the margins.  First, start with the presumption that most criminals commit more than one crime -- recidivism is quite high.  So, here are some arguments.

1) When a criminal is arrested, you can then confiscate any weapons they own, and you'll know they have them because of registration.  That may make it more difficult for at least some of them to have a weapon with which to commit a future crime.

2) If someone is adjudicated (not just reported/diagnosed) as having a mental illness or condition that actually makes them dangerous to others, you can then check to see if they own any weapons, and confiscate those.   That, also, may prevent them from having easy access to weapons in the future.  If they are not locked up, you can make it a condition of them being free (same with felons) that they also may not live with anyone who owns a weapon.  So, if you want a nutcase who is dangerous to live in your house, you can't have guns they might access.

There are issues with both of those, but I don't doubt that if it was implemented, you'd probably prevent at least some gun related crimes.  But again, I don't believe that the burden that places on law-abiding citizens is worth it.

@Maj. Bill Martin
#1 is easily refuted.   Most violent crimes (~80%) are committed by people previously convicted of a felony, usually another violent crime.  Its already illegal for them to own or possess a firearm.   

#2 is equally a false sense of security.   If a court revokes someones 2nd amendment rights they could easily search that persons home.  Having a gun registered doesn't prevent someone from hiding a gun at another location.  Nor does it prevent them from having a multitude of other types of weapons.

The only reason for registration is to apply further controls on law abiding citizens.  Making it harder to own them, more expensive and creating a new class of criminals for those who break the registration law.  Thereby reducing the population of legal owners.

No more compromise.  Conservatives and gun owners have compromised for decades and all its gotten us is more calls for compromise.

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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #897 on: April 10, 2018, 05:45:45 pm »
Well then, there's always the backup plan.... all my guns got lost in a terrible boating axedent.   It's been years since I purchased another one .... and I've slept since then.... so I forget the details of that boating axedent.  Oh well....

And... I don't plan on being involved in any mass shooting.  I specifically mentioned if or when TSHTF... meaning if big government ever starts demanding all gun records from gun owners, with confiscation as their motive.

@XenaLee
Over the last few years there have been numerous cases of military training taking place in small towns.   The stated goal was to train our troops for combat in urban areas.

Every single time the mission included going after drug dealers, weapons dealers, and other wanted persons.   
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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #898 on: April 10, 2018, 05:46:52 pm »
1) When a criminal is arrested, you can then confiscate any weapons they own,

So in accepting such a premise, we then say 'the hell with due process' and waiting until there is a conviction before the State acts to simply confiscate weapons from someone charged.

I do not think it would be long after that we start accepting the notion of 'pre-crime' being an actionable and approved policy.
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #899 on: April 10, 2018, 05:47:08 pm »
The LGS I use in Louisville is run by former LEO's...I know beyond a doubt any records they have will die in a fire if any kind of registration is implemented.

Yep.  And the really good friends that are gun store owners... will alert their customers if or when government comes knocking for those records.   It's nice to have time to line up an alibi for what terrible tragedy occurred re: your gun collection...lol.

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