Donald Trump to Republicans: We Have to Go ‘Further Right’ as Democrats Go Further Left

[EasyAce]

Trump says "I think we should build a wall" -- you have no opinion.
Trump says "Tariffs should be imposed on China" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "We need to cut the corporate tax rate" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "I oppose Transgender people in the military" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "We shouldn't be in the Paris Climate Accords" - you have no opinion.

1) The wall won't work.

2) Trade wars, with China or otherwise, won't work but will cause more headaches than the president or those in Congress who'd back him up on them
think.

3) Cutting taxes, corporate and otherwise---sound as a bell . . . but federal spending remaining out of control plus trade wars? The time won't be long before we think
to ourselves, "It was a nice tax cut while it lasted."

4) I'm not thrilled about transgenders in the military but I'm even less thrilled about  non-sensible defense spending. (I don't speak lightly about it; I'm an Air Force
veteran.)

5) Rejecting the Paris accords? Absolutely right.

Donaldus Minimus for something until he's against it---no opinion?

[edpc]

No.  This is the part of your post I consider hyperbolic/unreasonable:

"I have no opinion on anything he says...." I mean, what is that?

I understand that to mean @roamer_1 can never know if Trump really means things he says, so why opine on it?  He has a point in that he often contradicts himself.  His first year in office is replete with examples.  Here's just a couple:  Trump tweeted Tillerson was wasting time with North Korean diplomacy.  Now, he's trying to arrange direct talks.  Yesterday, the OMB Director, Mick Mulvaney, said Trump would sign it because it funds his priorities.  Now, he's considering a veto.

[INVAR]

But whether the country can/should move more towards traditional conservatism, or more towards libertarianism, is damn good question.

The 'question' is irrelevant because the government and both parties will NOT move the country towards 'traditional Conservatism' which the Republican Party, the President and a majority of voters in the last general election, have repudiated.  It's being redefined as you read this.

And libertarianism? - I'm assuming you meant liberalism in the Leftist sense.  I do not see a choice in direction between Conservatism and Libertarianism.  I see a choice of Behemoth government collectivist statism via populist fascism or Marxist Socialism.

BOTH parties are establishing these isms to one degree or another and doing so by crafting monstrosities like this omnibus spendaholic bill crafted in secret and voted on without anyone having a chance to thoroughly read, digest and research all the crap put into it.  And this is what Trump and GOP supporters said was the major reason why we needed to put them in to power to stop.  Instead, they go and do it themselves with even greater and bigger in-our-face affronts to fiscal discipline and liberty.

A better damn good question to ask ourselves is whether this people are willing to watch this former Republic collapse around them when the consequences of this behemoth government come to bear, or whether they will right themselves and abolish this form to which they have become accustomed?

I think the former.  These generations don't seem interested in fighting for anything except stripping away the first two Amendments and empowering government to pay for their irresponsibilities and impose perverted sexual vices.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I understand that to mean @roamer_1 can never know if Trump really means things he says, so why opine on it? 

Maybe because the underlying, substantive issue itself is worthy of discussion?

Eh, never mind.  I give up.

Again.

[roamer_1]

"I have no opinion on anything he says...." I mean, what is that?

Trump says "I think we should build a wall" -- you have no opinion.
Trump says "Tariffs should be imposed on China" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "We need to cut the corporate tax rate" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "I oppose Transgender people in the military" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "We shouldn't be in the Paris Climate Accords" - you have no opinion.
Trump says "Republicans should move to the right" - you have no opinion.


That is exactly my point.  It is impossible to discuss substantive issues here because as soon as the name "Trump" appears, a horde of people are triggered to empty their magazines at the mere mention of his name, firing the exact same bullets at the exact same locations as they've been doing for more than a year.  Trying to discuss the underlying issue is impossible.

How EXACTLY do you lend his words credence? Every single example you gave can easily be a lie (and probably is). It's the mechanics of the thing, @Maj. Bill Martin ... You see it as hate, but it isn't at all. How does one rise to defend words that will likely be countered in a week or a day, or even by the hour?

Good faith starts with a man being good to his word. And that is based upon a foundation of inerrant truth. That is not to say perfect truth all the time - I can swap lies and bullshit with the best of em... but the principle things - Things that matter - You can check my history here and at ToS as far back as 01, and I doubt you will find any change in my basic beliefs and principles.

THAT alone, missing entirely in Tump, or where it is found, bending distinctly in liberal directions, makes him utterly indefensible by the book. You can hope the winds of populism will buoy and guide him roughly in the right direction, I suppose, but the fact remains that a liar is an unprincipled man, and such a man, at the levers of power, is a bull in a china shop. And will, btw, remain indefensible. A liar is always a POS, and that will never change.

Trust me, I believe you on that one. 

You can take that to the bank. I will never trust a liar, and it is an amazement to me that folks don't understand that. Maybe social norms have been deprecated enough that such things don't matter where you are... But out here, deals are made with a hard eye and a hard handshake... And often enough, folks can die if a man doesn't do as he says. And because of that, a man's word is all he has.

So to me, it is a first thing, without which, there is nothing. That cannot change.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

A better damn good question to ask ourselves is whether this people are willing to watch this former Republic collapse around them when the consequences of this behemoth government come to bear, or whether they will right themselves and abolish this form to which they have become accustomed?

I think the former.  These generations don't seem interested in fighting for anything except stripping away the first two Amendments and empowering government to pay for their irresponsibilities and impose perverted sexual vices.

Okay tough guy -- you pretty much hint all around that you support a violent revolution to overthrow the government.  Except...I don't see you out there manning any barricades, or rallying the troops, or doing anything other than the internet tough guy routine.

Not impressed.

[roamer_1]

I understand that to mean @roamer_1 can never know if Trump really means things he says [...]

@edpc

YEP.  I was beginning to think nobody was pickin up what I was puttin down...

[INVAR]

Okay tough guy -- you pretty much hint all around that you support a violent revolution to overthrow the government.  Except...I don't see you out there manning any barricades, or rallying the troops, or doing anything other than the internet tough guy routine.

Not impressed.

I'm pointing out what history and human nature teaches and I asked a damn important question one that our forbears asked and answered and even wrote about.

You're the one all upset that we're not 'discussing' important issues.  But then perhaps you are good and fine with your government creating legislation in secret and voting on bills without reading them while saddling ourselves and our posterity with a debt that cannot be repaid in fifty lifetimes because there is not enough wealth on the planet to cover it.

History has some pretty pointed lessons about what happens when a government becomes what ours has - and what would be required if liberty was to exist as intended for us.

I think it was Jefferson who thought the tree of liberty would need to be watered every generation.

But perhaps you should excoriate him for writing about it and not manning the barricades himself.

[Sanguine]

I'm pointing out what history and human nature teaches and I asked a damn important question one that our forbears asked and answered and even wrote about.

You're the one all upset that we're not 'discussing' important issues.  But then perhaps you are good and fine with your government creating legislation in secret and voting on bills without reading them while saddling ourselves and our posterity with a debt that cannot be repaid in fifty lifetimes because there is not enough wealth on the planet to cover it.

....

Great mini-rant!

[Smokin Joe]

??? He promised to build a wall.   He promised no amnesty.  He promised repeal.  The GOP has not delivered on any of his campaign political strategies.  So exactly why should I believe that the GOP will take us more to the right?

After Trump won the presidency, Ryan got up and gave a wonderful (b.s.) speech of how the GOP had important work to do and that the Republican government was now unified and that their was now an opportunity to get things done ... blah, blah, blah.   

I declare b.s.

If the GOP goes much further left, they could run MLK Jr or those dead Kennedys to the Right. If they are going to keep the just left of center brand, they'd better move 'a little to the Right'. Otherwise, they should just sign up at the DNC.

[Jazzhead]

This kind of exemplifies the hyperbole that destroys decent debate.

I remember when he was running during the general election, and a lot of us who didn't like him generally said we were voting for him anyway because of the Supreme Court.  We were told that was dumb, because he was an absolute liar and wouldn't follow through, that he'd appoint the same kind of people as Hillary would, etc....  I remember also being told over the summer that there was no difference between Democrats and Republicans in general, that McConnell was a weasel would confirm Merrick Garland in the lame duck session anyway, etc...

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers those discussions.

Well...that didn't happen.  McConnell actually hung firm on Garland, and kept the GOP majority in line on that issue.  Then Trump appointed the most consistent originalist/textualist possible in Gorsuch, and McConnell again rammed it through.  Since then -- for anyone who knows anything about the people who've been nominated -- Trump has been incredibly consistent in appointing more of the same to the federal bench.

Like I said, I understanding not liking a ton of things about the guy.  Plenty of stuff I don't like about him either.  But this 100%, balls to the wall cacophony of "Trump is horrible and I refuse to consider any exceptions to that" attitude destroys the ability to have decent discussions on anything.  Because no matter the topic, there is an immediate influx of people who basically ignore the topic itself, and just reiterate the same "Trump is a horrible person whom I hate and do not trust" line in every single thread.

I was just hoping things might be just a little bit different after more than six months, but nothing has changed even in the slightest, even though everyone already has made their positions clear to everyone else at least 10 times.  Some folks in here are like pull-string dolls with 4-5 set phrases, and all they do is keep yanking their own string in every thread, making the exact same arguments and hyperbolic statements over and over and over again.

Excellent post, @Maj. Bill Martin   Thankfully, there are a number of voices here - including yours -  that are not hung up on easy slogans and knee-jerkism.   Trump has serious and obvious flaws,  but he's also managed to accomplish some great things, even in the middle of a maelstrom of invective and abuse.   

As for my view of the topic thread,  it's not a matter of countering progressivism with more extreme "conservatism".   If the left is going to fortify the state,  the opposition should emphasize individual liberty and economic and personal freedom.   In other words, our opposition should be grounded in libertarianism, not conservatism.  Free minds and free markets  -  scary notions to both the hard left and the socially conservative right.     

[libertybele]

Excellent post, @Maj. Bill Martin   Thankfully, there are a number of voices here - including yours -  that are not hung up on easy slogans and knee-jerkism.   Trump has serious and obvious flaws,  but he's also managed to accomplish some great things, even in the middle of a maelstrom of invective and abuse.   

As for my view of the topic thread,  it's not a matter of countering progressivism with more extreme "conservatism".   If the left is going to fortify the state,  the opposition should emphasize individual liberty and economic and personal freedom.   In other words, our opposition should be grounded in libertarianism, not conservatism.  Free minds and free markets  -  scary notions to both the hard left and the socially conservative right.   

Trump is a liberal; always has been and always will be.  No wall. No repeal. Trillions added to our deficit. Willing to hand the DEMS the government with a blue bow wrapped around it in granting amnesty. 

Well done Trumpsters.  Well done!   

[edpc]

Love him or hate him ---  Donald Trump has remarkable political instincts. He boiled the winning political strategy down to four simple words in 2016.  Now the President's laid out another short, sweet and on target strategy for winning in 2018.

As God is my witness, I'll never sign another bill like this again!

[INVAR]

In other words, our opposition should be grounded in libertarianism, not conservatism. 

Does this mean you are going to stop bullshitting the membership here with your boldfaced lie that you are a "Conservative" while spouting all the Leftist pap you spew on this board when clearly by your own words - you are anything but?

Or do you think the membership here is too stupid to figure out what you are and you'll keep up the bullshit?

[guitar4jesus]

Does this mean you are going to stop bullshitting the membership here with your boldfaced lie that you are a "Conservative" while spouting all the Leftist pap you spew on this board when clearly by your own words - you are anything but?

Or do you think the membership here is too stupid to figure out what you are and you'll keep up the bullshit?

Leave him alone, he's just acting presidential... 

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Some one should tell President Trump to go further right.  Big spending, appeasing Russia, gun grabs, and funding abortion are all liberal principles.