Author Topic: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity  (Read 2768 times)

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 09:08:06 pm »
Boys are emasculated and feminized, girls are butched up and family values and morals are demonized.

THIS is part of the problem.  Children should be free to be individuals, without the tomboy and effeminate labels.  When boys are told for years that they're not "manly" enough, I'm not surprised that some of them come to believe they're in the "wrong body".
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 09:12:30 pm »
Completely agree that the problem is with liberals because (most) conservatives are more tolerant of different ideas.

I speak as a girl who used to use her fists to solve problems (mostly with boys, but not all), and who grew up to be what I wanted to be....... a Mom, who stayed home with her kids and never found more fulfillment in anything than doing so, but who took the barbs of a leftist culture who wanted to deny me the choice, or give me the choice and then mock me for it.

What I object to is that there are still those on the right who say boys must be this way and girls must be that way, when the TRUTH is that God's creativity makes us all individuals, and any human attempt to force us into little round holes (especially those of us who are square, because God created us to be unique), is bound to harm a lot of people.

Perhaps, if conservatism had stood up more strongly for individuality than imposed social expectations, the left wouldn't have been able to get such a strong foothold and destroy not only our boys, but our girls....

@bolobaby

I'm sorry you ran into liberals like that -- my sense is that some women reacted with intolerance in the 1970s/1980s maybe, because they felt they were having to fight so hard.  I assure you, that the women I know combine all kinds of different types of work and childrearing.  We still are trying to find that balance, but we are trying to be respectful of each other while we do it.  I hope maybe you can take me as an example of a "non-evil" liberal ;). 

Funny, that I would have said the stereotype is that liberals are more tolerant of different ideas ;).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:16:08 pm by LauraTXNM »
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 09:15:01 pm »
What I object to is that there are still those on the right who say boys must be this way and girls must be that way, when the TRUTH is that God's creativity makes us all individuals, and any human attempt to force us into little round holes (especially those of us who are square, because God created us to be unique), is bound to harm a lot of people.

Perhaps, if conservatism had stood up more strongly for individuality than imposed social expectations, the left wouldn't have been able to get such a strong foothold and destroy not only our boys, but our girls....

@bolobaby

This is so BEAUTIFULLY put.  Kudos!
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 09:26:24 pm »
I'm sorry, but I call BS.  Boys who were effeminate used to have the sh-t kicked out of them frequently, often by their dads.
 

So what? ALL boys got the shit kicked out of em around here...
MALES FIGHT. It;s what they do.
Males compete. It is how it works.


Quote
I would call this a traditional rather than a liberal or conservative issue, though my friends who had the sh-t beaten out of them mostly grew up in more conservative households.  The idea that you had to be a certain way to be "a real man" who didn't cry, demonstrate emotion, all the stereotypes, is an old-school notion.  From John Wayne to "The Godfather" -- "women and children can be careless, not men." 


Yes, it's more of a reality v fantasy argument.  Remove the boundaries of polite society (which is happening even now) and everything reverts back to the norm.

Quote
And you all really need to look at women today, who can be homemakers or working professionals or both.  No one is telling us we can't, except for a few voices saying that children can't be raised right without a parent in the home, or that women should have careers to the exclusion of childbearing.  I am a liberal, and a feminist, and I don't believe in that BS.  Neither do my friends, the women I went to college with in an old-fashioned "girls school". 

As if 'today' is so blessed by comparison. Children aren't being raised right - that is evident on it's face.
They are dumb as hell by comparison... And without initiative or constraint.
 
Quote
Once again, this does not need to be a liberal vs. conservative issue.  It is a matter of rcognizing traditions and history, keeping things that work and letting go of things that don't.

And who, pray tell  is to be the arbiter thereof?
As I said, what is being removed is only polite society - those constraints that men tolerated for the purpose of a safe place for their women, and by extension, for their children.

Removing those constraints has a very predictable end.
Either men will become intolerant of them and revert to form,
Or other men will find them weak and conquer them.
Simple as that.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:27:14 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 11:02:31 pm »
I'm sorry, but I call BS.  Boys who were effeminate used to have the sh-t kicked out of them frequently, often by their dads.  I would call this a traditional rather than a liberal or conservative issue, though my friends who had the sh-t beaten out of them mostly grew up in more conservative households.  The idea that you had to be a certain way to be "a real man" who didn't cry, demonstrate emotion, all the stereotypes, is an old-school notion.  From John Wayne to "The Godfather" -- "women and children can be careless, not men." 

And you all really need to look at women today, who can be homemakers or working professionals or both.  No one is telling us we can't, except for a few voices saying that children can't be raised right without a parent in the home, or that women should have careers to the exclusion of childbearing.  I am a liberal, and a feminist, and I don't believe in that BS.  Neither do my friends, the women I went to college with in an old-fashioned "girls school". 

Once again, this does not need to be a liberal vs. conservative issue.  It is a matter of rcognizing traditions and history, keeping things that work and letting go of things that don't.
I'm not sure where and how you grew up, but no one kicked their own boy's butt as part of any tradition in any family I knew.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a family where my father made enough that mom didn't have to work and was free to be a homemaker. By no means did that constrain her from being politically active, and it gave her the freedom to not only raise and educate us (because what you learned in school wasn't always correct, nor complete) and encouraged us to take advantage of the rather large library we had at home. Without her counsel, wisdom, and care, I think we would have all turned out far worse, and had she bought into the often blatantly materialistic quest for unneeded income (because that second income was often optional in those days) and worked outside the home, as children we would have been deprived of that guidance and mentoring, not to mention not eating nearly as well.
What I saw happen as women became 'liberated' was inflation to the point where few households could afford to not have both parents working. The price of housing and automobiles, the two serious big ticket items, went up as the economy transitioned from single wage-earner to dual wage earner, and the term 'single parent', whether widowed or divorced usually meant some level of impoverishment, to the degree that along with the "Great Society", welfare rolls and subsidized housing expanded, not just along the oft assumed racial lines.

There have always been women who went into professions, or who had jobs, and that was plenty acceptable back then, despite the whole myth of "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen", and farm/ranch wives have been some of the hardest working of all, but the nurturing roles in our culture went to those who, traditionally (and biologically, at least for the first year) are better equipped to do so. As kids get older, they have learned from their fathers and their grandparents (because back then, the extended family was often involved). But I cannot honestly recall women being held back from any of that, at least not since Marie Curie, with the exception of the priesthood.

But the question isn't one of keeping women from pursuing professions they want to pursue. My question is one of (aside from economic necessity) whether women prefer working to being mom. The latter, well done, can produce lifelong rewards, and is imho, the most important job of all.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2018, 11:06:33 pm »
This is so BEAUTIFULLY put.  Kudos!

Thank you, @LauraTXNM .

(It's going to make some of the "boys will be boys" and shouldn't be tamed gang mad, though.  They don't like uppity females.  ^-^)
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline bolobaby

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2018, 11:06:53 pm »
I'm sorry, but I call BS.  Boys who were effeminate used to have the sh-t kicked out of them frequently, often by their dads.  I would call this a traditional rather than a liberal or conservative issue, though my friends who had the sh-t beaten out of them mostly grew up in more conservative households.  The idea that you had to be a certain way to be "a real man" who didn't cry, demonstrate emotion, all the stereotypes, is an old-school notion.  From John Wayne to "The Godfather" -- "women and children can be careless, not men." 

And you all really need to look at women today, who can be homemakers or working professionals or both.  No one is telling us we can't, except for a few voices saying that children can't be raised right without a parent in the home, or that women should have careers to the exclusion of childbearing.  I am a liberal, and a feminist, and I don't believe in that BS.  Neither do my friends, the women I went to college with in an old-fashioned "girls school". 

Once again, this does not need to be a liberal vs. conservative issue.  It is a matter of rcognizing traditions and history, keeping things that work and letting go of things that don't.

No. When you are talking about gender roles not being concrete, you're making sense. When you're talking about genders not being concrete you're spewing ignorance.

Boys who do laundry, girls who start a lawnmowing business, bookworms versus jocks, princesses versus tomboys - that's all fine... with a caveat.

The caveat being that men and women ARE different. That translates to certain stereotypes existing FOR A REASON - namely, because boys acting *like boys* is the most natural state of affairs. Girls acting like girls is equally natural. Boys like to fight. Girls like to gab (and gab and gab and gab). And so forth and so on. Oh, sure not ALL boys and girls, but MOST tend to fit more closely to their stereotypical role. It's actually WHY stereotypes exist. If it makes you feel better, we can call then archetypes. Maybe that word doesn't offend you as much.

Liberals want the world to discard archetypes, including the archetype that actually exists between your legs. It validates some deep held belief of theirs that conforming=bad and being different=good. Sorry, but being different isn't always everything it's cracked up to be. Sometimes conforming to certain norms (like, say, "we don't shoot up schools") is a pretty good thing. Conservatives also believe that extends to "men don't wear pink tutus."

So sue me if I believe that gender roles exist for actual, natural reasons and that they aren't wholly a construct of society. Because they aren't. If you need further proof, just look at nature. Every species seems to have roles for their genders that is more or less followed on a whole. Why? Because it works. It helps them to survive as a species. And - surprise - it's imprinted in their brains. Like us.

So, just to clarify, I started by saying that gender roles don't HAVE to be concrete. That's the things like homemaker vs breadwinner, because we are higher, thinking beings - it allows us to be somewhat flexible. On the flipside, stupidly ignoring and throwing away gender roles - and gender itself - is outright silly.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 11:08:39 pm by bolobaby »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 11:11:58 pm »
I'm sorry you ran into liberals like that -- my sense is that some women reacted with intolerance in the 1970s/1980s maybe, because they felt they were having to fight so hard.  I assure you, that the women I know combine all kinds of different types of work and childrearing.  We still are trying to find that balance, but we are trying to be respectful of each other while we do it.  I hope maybe you can take me as an example of a "non-evil" liberal ;). 

Funny, that I would have said the stereotype is that liberals are more tolerant of different ideas ;).

The problem is with people who think that allowing men and women to be treated as individuals and not just part of a group, who believe that is somehow a conservative position.

Just because leftists have destroyed freedom doesn't mean freedom should be denied.

What we have here is classic liberal "groupthink."  Women are one way, men are another.  Men fight.  Men cuss.  Men spit, and not only in the corner.  Women sew.  Women cook.  Women shut the heck up when men are around.

It's a liberal ideology to refuse to admit God's phenomenal creativity in making us each individuals, and in instructing us to raise our children "in the way they should go."  Not as a cultural stereotype, but according to their gifts and strengths.

Liberals aren't tolerant of ANY idea that they don't agree with, and obviously neither are a minority of conservatives. 
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2018, 02:33:58 am »
I'm not sure where and how you grew up, but no one kicked their own boy's butt as part of any tradition in any family I knew.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a family where my father made enough that mom didn't have to work and was free to be a homemaker. By no means did that constrain her from being politically active, and it gave her the freedom to not only raise and educate us (because what you learned in school wasn't always correct, nor complete) and encouraged us to take advantage of the rather large library we had at home. Without her counsel, wisdom, and care, I think we would have all turned out far worse, and had she bought into the often blatantly materialistic quest for unneeded income (because that second income was often optional in those days) and worked outside the home, as children we would have been deprived of that guidance and mentoring, not to mention not eating nearly as well.
What I saw happen as women became 'liberated' was inflation to the point where few households could afford to not have both parents working. The price of housing and automobiles, the two serious big ticket items, went up as the economy transitioned from single wage-earner to dual wage earner, and the term 'single parent', whether widowed or divorced usually meant some level of impoverishment, to the degree that along with the "Great Society", welfare rolls and subsidized housing expanded, not just along the oft assumed racial lines.

There have always been women who went into professions, or who had jobs, and that was plenty acceptable back then, despite the whole myth of "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen", and farm/ranch wives have been some of the hardest working of all, but the nurturing roles in our culture went to those who, traditionally (and biologically, at least for the first year) are better equipped to do so. As kids get older, they have learned from their fathers and their grandparents (because back then, the extended family was often involved). But I cannot honestly recall women being held back from any of that, at least not since Marie Curie, with the exception of the priesthood.

But the question isn't one of keeping women from pursuing professions they want to pursue. My question is one of (aside from economic necessity) whether women prefer working to being mom. The latter, well done, can produce lifelong rewards, and is imho, the most important job of all.
"There have always been women who went into professions, or who had jobs, and that was plenty acceptable back then,"

When I started working at a Fortune 500 corp in my hometown in the early seventies, there were about twenty women working in my work group (paper pushers).  Many of them had been there twenty years already meaning they had been hired shortly after WWII when the company expanded but well before the era of supposed female emancipation.
A few years after I started, the company started promoting many of the female office workers to positions in management.
What liberals and feminists miss is the arc of history.
The simple fact is that  before WWII  only a small pct. of the nation's males had "important" jobs i.e. white collar professionals and big shots in business.
Many men were still slogging away on the farm.   A very large pct. of men were factory workers or worked non-professional jobs in a variety of physical labor-intensive positions. Like they do now.
It was only after the war that both males and females started attending college in large numbers. Even during the forties only about half the nation's schoolchildren graduated from high school.
So after WWII when both sexes graduated from high school in larger numbers and started attending college in large numbers, it was inevitable that many educated females would start being employed more by businesses and private firms.
The growth had nothing to do with the feminist "emancipation" that really didn't start until the late sixties. Well before that millions of women had been employed by many businesses and such.
So the idea that women had to wait for the feminists to gain their "emancipation" is balderdash. It had been happening well before they came around and nearly wrecked everything.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 02:39:50 am »
@goatprairie Makes sense, thanks for the perspective.

Kinda trashes the whole sainted victim narrative though.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:40:55 am by skeeter »

Offline Taxcontrol

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2018, 06:13:42 am »
Father of 50s-60s boy, called to task for fighting.  they knew they'd get the paddle for the fistfight on the playground,

My father was mad for the humiliation of having to deal with the Vice Principal, effectively calling him to task over his sons' propensity to duke it out. Then on the way home, asking me what happened, and if I won. (...for me, the single swat was well worth the status and warning it sent. My brothers and I all wrestled, lower middle weight, and rarely if ever lost fights. Dad was more proud, than mad.)

My dad's rule was simple.  If you fight at school, I am going to give you 10 licks with the belt.  If you lose, your going to get 10 more.  I only got into one fight, after taking several punches and finally getting fed up with it I landed on punch straight to the mouth.  Two teeth later and lots of blood in front of half of the school.  Never had to fight another day in my entire school life.  I was the geek with the jab.

Got 3 licks from the principle and 10 from my dad.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 07:16:30 am »
Got 3 licks from the principle and 10 from my dad.

I never got the paddle for fighting.  One time I picked a fight, and that was the only time my ol man whipped on me for fighting... and he thumped me good.

Thereafter, I would always take the first hit. Thereafter I would fight with abandon, and within the right of self defense.  Likewise, I was never first to get dirty - Always let the other guy try that first... Once he went dirty, I was absolutely free - Never was any good with boxing and Queen of Marksbury stuff...

But never the paddle.  If I was in the right, my ol man was 100% behind me, and damn well no one was going to punish me for doing the right thing. And self defense, or defense of others, was always the right thing.

Different thing the first time I hit jail. Bailed me out once, with the warning of 'never again'... And never again it was. Thereafter, I sat it out, waiting on the judge.

Offline DB

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2018, 07:44:22 am »
Actually, the OPPOSITE is true.

When I was a kid, if you had differences with another student, you'd slug it out, someone would get a bloody nose or lip, and everyone would move on. That was that. In fact, after each fist fight I was engaged in, my opponent and I either gained respect for each other or outright friendship.

Nowadays, zero-tolerance policies have made it so the rage gets pent up. Boys don't know or understand the value of a fist fight, so - when it comes time to hurt someone - they are ALL IN and ready to shoot. We've pussified boys so that they are afraid to fight, and unable to get their frustrations out through fighting.

Bottom line, there is wisdom in letting us punch one another every now and then.

I strongly agree with your assessment but didn't know how to say it. Well said.

Offline DB

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2018, 08:04:59 am »
Completely agree that the problem is with liberals because (most) conservatives are more tolerant of different ideas.

I speak as a girl who used to use her fists to solve problems (mostly with boys, but not all), and who grew up to be what I wanted to be....... a Mom, who stayed home with her kids and never found more fulfillment in anything than doing so, but who took the barbs of a leftist culture who wanted to deny me the choice, or give me the choice and then mock me for it.

What I object to is that there are still those on the right who say boys must be this way and girls must be that way, when the TRUTH is that God's creativity makes us all individuals, and any human attempt to force us into little round holes (especially those of us who are square, because God created us to be unique), is bound to harm a lot of people.

Perhaps, if conservatism had stood up more strongly for individuality than imposed social expectations, the left wouldn't have been able to get such a strong foothold and destroy not only our boys, but our girls....

@bolobaby

I would argue that conservatism at its heart is about individual liberty and responsibility. Liberalism in the modern usage is to deny the individual both liberty and responsibility - the opposite of conservatism. Liberalism is about hammering the individual into a Utopian cog "for the greater good". The goal is a better Utopia, not a better cog. We are the cogs...

Offline musiclady

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2018, 02:53:24 pm »
I would argue that conservatism at its heart is about individual liberty and responsibility. Liberalism in the modern usage is to deny the individual both liberty and responsibility - the opposite of conservatism. Liberalism is about hammering the individual into a Utopian cog "for the greater good". The goal is a better Utopia, not a better cog. We are the cogs...

I agree that conservatism at its heart is about individual liberty and responsibility, and that is exactly why I believe that anyone who tries to force men and women into specific cultural roles and behaviors is not being conservative.....just traditional.  And there is a big difference between the two.

There is also a great distance between saying that there is no difference between men and women, and saying that men and women shouldn't be forced into some one else's idea of what they should be, or worse yet, that saying that if you don't behave in a certain manner you are not masculine, or are not feminine.

A lot of folks don't understand that God indeed created us as individuals, and there is nothing wrong with that.  Some boys are non-violent by nature, some girls come out of the womb swinging their fists.

It's not as simplistic as some would have it be.

One of the reasons I have always been conservative is that conservatism is a thinking, reasoning ideology.  Saying "boys fight. It's what they do"..... is not conservative.  It's reactionary.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2018, 03:21:36 pm »
Related:
Quote
13 Ways Public Schools Incubate Mental Instability In Kids
The correlation between public school environments and the deteriorating mental health of children has been intensifying for decades.

By Stella Morabito   
February 21, 2018

Why doesn’t anyone investigate the toxic effects of today’s bureaucrat-run mega-schools in the wake of a school shooting? It’s high time we place a share of the blame there.

Apologists for these noxious systems continue to shift blame for their failures using the media, various left-wing lobbies, and the kids themselves as programmed mouthpieces for statist agendas like gun control. Meanwhile, they keep feeding the beast by mass institutionalizing kids.

The correlation between public school environments and the deteriorating mental health of children has been intensifying for decades. We ought to consider how these settings serve as incubators for the social alienation that can fuel such horrors.  ...
Read the rest at The Federalist
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2018, 06:42:06 pm »
I agree that conservatism at its heart is about individual liberty and responsibility, and that is exactly why I believe that anyone who tries to force men and women into specific cultural roles and behaviors is not being conservative.....just traditional.  And there is a big difference between the two....

This whole post is so well expressed!
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2018, 06:44:52 pm »
This whole post is so well expressed!

I'm quite sure some of the traditional fellers around here disagree.  ^-^

(But thanks!)
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline DB

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2018, 07:03:53 pm »
I agree that conservatism at its heart is about individual liberty and responsibility, and that is exactly why I believe that anyone who tries to force men and women into specific cultural roles and behaviors is not being conservative.....just traditional.  And there is a big difference between the two.

There is also a great distance between saying that there is no difference between men and women, and saying that men and women shouldn't be forced into some one else's idea of what they should be, or worse yet, that saying that if you don't behave in a certain manner you are not masculine, or are not feminine.

A lot of folks don't understand that God indeed created us as individuals, and there is nothing wrong with that.  Some boys are non-violent by nature, some girls come out of the womb swinging their fists.

It's not as simplistic as some would have it be.

One of the reasons I have always been conservative is that conservatism is a thinking, reasoning ideology.  Saying "boys fight. It's what they do"..... is not conservative.  It's reactionary.

Well I agree with the vast majority of what you said. But nature is nature. Males do fight. Does that cover ALL males, no. By fighting at a young age most males work out cause and affect with social interaction and the limits of force. Preventing those lessens can be deadly later is the point that is trying to be made. And I agree that people shouldn't be pounded into fixed roles but some guidance isn't a bad thing. I'm mostly a live and let live kind of guy but don't force your way on me (not talking about you here).

Offline musiclady

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2018, 07:15:37 pm »
Well I agree with the vast majority of what you said. But nature is nature. Males do fight. Does that cover ALL males, no. By fighting at a young age most males work out cause and affect with social interaction and the limits of force. Preventing those lessens can be deadly later is the point that is trying to be made. And I agree that people shouldn't be pounded into fixed roles but some guidance isn't a bad thing. I'm mostly a live and let live kind of guy but don't force your way on me (not talking about you here).

I'm not sure about one thing you've said here.   Are you suggesting that boys who are not inclined to fight, but are perfectly "male," should be encouraged to fight?  (As in "some guidance?")

My perspective is that standing up for yourself is an important part of being nurtured by parents, and that being taken advantage of is always a bad thing, but I don't see that handling problems with your fists is something that should be "guided" for boys.

That's different than being able to protect yourself, which should be taught to both male and female children.   And if a child of either sex is inclined to hit people when angered, he or she should be encouraged to solve problems in another manner.  (Remember that I, as a child, used to hit other children who made me mad.  Not a good way to solve things, IMO...  ^-^).

Again, I see the Proverbs instruction as coming into play here.  Raise each child as he or she should go, not in a groupthink behavior that is not one whit conservative, nor in my view, Biblical.

Not really arguing with you here, @DB .  I think this is a good conversation, and an important one to have.  :beer:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2018, 07:22:47 pm »
Let me add another point here.  I have seen many parents who have not discouraged their adolescent daughters from acting out in inappropriate ways because it was just "hormones."   I strongly disagree with that idea, because a child, male or female, should be instructed to behave appropriately regardless of the "feelings" they may be having.

Thus, boys, "feeling" like having sex or molesting a girl shouldn't do it because it is not right.  Girls shouldn't lash out at others because of "feelings," because it is not right.

In the same manner, I believe that boys should be instructed not to use their fists to solve problems, regardless of their "feelings," i.e. nature.

As parents, we are to help our children (especially as Christian parents) to behave in the best possible manner, not give in to "nature," which may not be kind, loving, decent, Christ-like.

Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2018, 07:30:52 pm »
THIS is part of the problem.  Children should be free to be individuals, without the tomboy and effeminate labels.  When boys are told for years that they're not "manly" enough, I'm not surprised that some of them come to believe they're in the "wrong body".
Actually I have noticed just the opposite about what is happening to boys and men too. When I was in my late teens and was injured I was told by a nurse to "stop being a man about it", with my son and now my grandson I see teachers and others guilt them for not crying or being over emotional, they are in effect saying don't be a male. I have no problem with girls being tomboys, my daughter could with the best of them but she knew she was a girl and was and is capable of being very feminine. Now they punish boys if they God forbid behave like boys rough housing, competing, keeping score or sin of all sins take interest in guns or the military.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2018, 07:35:27 pm »
No. When you are talking about gender roles not being concrete, you're making sense. When you're talking about genders not being concrete you're spewing ignorance.

Boys who do laundry, girls who start a lawnmowing business, bookworms versus jocks, princesses versus tomboys - that's all fine... with a caveat.

The caveat being that men and women ARE different. That translates to certain stereotypes existing FOR A REASON - namely, because boys acting *like boys* is the most natural state of affairs. Girls acting like girls is equally natural. Boys like to fight. Girls like to gab (and gab and gab and gab). And so forth and so on. Oh, sure not ALL boys and girls, but MOST tend to fit more closely to their stereotypical role. It's actually WHY stereotypes exist. If it makes you feel better, we can call then archetypes. Maybe that word doesn't offend you as much.

Liberals want the world to discard archetypes, including the archetype that actually exists between your legs. It validates some deep held belief of theirs that conforming=bad and being different=good. Sorry, but being different isn't always everything it's cracked up to be. Sometimes conforming to certain norms (like, say, "we don't shoot up schools") is a pretty good thing. Conservatives also believe that extends to "men don't wear pink tutus."

So sue me if I believe that gender roles exist for actual, natural reasons and that they aren't wholly a construct of society. Because they aren't. If you need further proof, just look at nature. Every species seems to have roles for their genders that is more or less followed on a whole. Why? Because it works. It helps them to survive as a species. And - surprise - it's imprinted in their brains. Like us.

So, just to clarify, I started by saying that gender roles don't HAVE to be concrete. That's the things like homemaker vs breadwinner, because we are higher, thinking beings - it allows us to be somewhat flexible. On the flipside, stupidly ignoring and throwing away gender roles - and gender itself - is outright silly.
With proof that  you are correct current conservative superstar Prof. Jordan Peterson likes to relate the situation in Scandinavia. Most Scandinavian countries were the world leaders in eliminating laws and customs that supposedly held back women from attaining the positions and jobs  of what were considered mostly male.
So what happened after the Scandinavian countries equalized just about everything and both sexes were free to choose whatever occupation they wanted? What happened was the preferences for certain jobs became even more pronounced.
Men still mostly preferred what were considered male occupations and women still chose professions that were mostly thought to be for females.
Scandinavia proved that the sexes are wired differently, and no matter how hard people try to make the outcomes the same, they will never be the same because of hard-wired differences between the sexes.
Left to their own devices, without being forced by law or society, males and females do different things.
It's just very difficult for radical feminists to accept that fact.

Offline DB

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2018, 07:41:15 pm »
I'm not sure about one thing you've said here.   Are you suggesting that boys who are not inclined to fight, but are perfectly "male," should be encouraged to fight?  (As in "some guidance?")

My perspective is that standing up for yourself is an important part of being nurtured by parents, and that being taken advantage of is always a bad thing, but I don't see that handling problems with your fists is something that should be "guided" for boys.

That's different than being able to protect yourself, which should be taught to both male and female children.   And if a child of either sex is inclined to hit people when angered, he or she should be encouraged to solve problems in another manner.  (Remember that I, as a child, used to hit other children who made me mad.  Not a good way to solve things, IMO...  ^-^).

Again, I see the Proverbs instruction as coming into play here.  Raise each child as he or she should go, not in a groupthink behavior that is not one whit conservative, nor in my view, Biblical.

Not really arguing with you here, @DB .  I think this is a good conversation, and an important one to have.  :beer:

"Are you suggesting that boys who are not inclined to fight, but are perfectly "male," should be encouraged to fight?"

No.

I don't encourage anyone to fight short of self defense. You do need to know how to defend yourself and how and when to apply it. By "guidance" I mean basic morality including sexual activity with others. Part of learning is experiencing consequences. Young boys aren't likely to do much damage to each other if it comes to fists. For many what they learn from that prevents later adventures when real damage can take place and that fights aren't like what Hollywood or a video game portrays.

Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2018, 07:48:19 pm »
Let me add another point here.  I have seen many parents who have not discouraged their adolescent daughters from acting out in inappropriate ways because it was just "hormones."   I strongly disagree with that idea, because a child, male or female, should be instructed to behave appropriately regardless of the "feelings" they may be having.

Thus, boys, "feeling" like having sex or molesting a girl shouldn't do it because it is not right.  Girls shouldn't lash out at others because of "feelings," because it is not right.

In the same manner, I believe that boys should be instructed not to use their fists to solve problems, regardless of their "feelings," i.e. nature.

As parents, we are to help our children (especially as Christian parents) to behave in the best possible manner, not give in to "nature," which may not be kind, loving, decent, Christ-like.

Agreed!  It makes sense to explain to middle schoolers that they will have hormonal shifts that may affect their mood, etc., but that they need to behave despite that awareness.  But it can be helpful for them to know that it's natural for them to have mood swings, etc.  Not an excuse, just information.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.