Author Topic: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns  (Read 13343 times)

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Offline INVAR

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #350 on: February 23, 2018, 09:18:14 pm »
I suspect the sheer volume of non compliance with any registration scheme would cause the government to back off

Not exactly.

The sheer magnitude of non-compliance and the very real risk and threat agents of the state will face if attempting to enforce government's new law - is what will cause them to back off.

Hopefully that threat is large enough to cause the government to rethink going down the path that will earn them a justifiable war.

If not, then we will have already arrived at the point that Jefferson spoke of in terms of watering the Tree of Liberty.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:19:19 pm by INVAR »
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #351 on: February 23, 2018, 09:33:02 pm »
Not exactly.

The sheer magnitude of non-compliance and the very real risk and threat agents of the state will face if attempting to enforce government's new law - is what will cause them to back off.

Hopefully that threat is large enough to cause the government to rethink going down the path that will earn them a justifiable war.

If not, then we will have already arrived at the point that Jefferson spoke of in terms of watering the Tree of Liberty.

This right here is the knife-edge of where this goes from here.  Will the Feds really feel like they can win in an attempt to mass register all the 300 Million or so firearms?  If they don't they'll find a way to back it off.  But if they do, well yeah, Jefferson's tree is going to get hydrated.
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Offline LMAO

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #352 on: February 23, 2018, 09:42:39 pm »
This right here is the knife-edge of where this goes from here.  Will the Feds really feel like they can win in an attempt to mass register all the 300 Million or so firearms?  If they don't they'll find a way to back it off.  But if they do, well yeah, Jefferson's tree is going to get hydrated.

Won’t ever come to any type of shooting. Federal agents have no desire to shoot law abiding gun owners wholesale anymore than law abiding gun owners want to shoot federal agents. Plus the optics of government officials stomping on American citizens over a controversial law won’t generate much sympathy towards the state
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:43:42 pm by LMAO »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #353 on: February 23, 2018, 10:06:06 pm »
Won’t ever come to any type of shooting. Federal agents have no desire to shoot law abiding gun owners wholesale anymore than law abiding gun owners want to shoot federal agents. Plus the optics of government officials stomping on American citizens over a controversial law won’t generate much sympathy towards the state

That's the way I see it too, but it has to be proven to the lefties among us that they don't have the numbers of willing compliants to get their idiotic theories to work.  They really thought Obamacare would work, too.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #354 on: February 23, 2018, 10:10:38 pm »
Quote
I agree.  But the 2A does not provide specific protection of that right.

"Shall not be infringed" is the specific clearly worded language that does indeed do what you claim isn't there.

It's only you that seems to be blind to that fact.

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline aligncare

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #355 on: February 23, 2018, 10:21:44 pm »
For someone who didn't want to insert themselves into the discussion and state their view on the issue you sure did a great job of doing both.  *****rollingeyes*****

You have no idea what my position is because I specifically withheld it. What I stated was an opinion about the landscape. The direction congress moves, if they move at all (because actually democrats don’t want any action as they’d rather use the issue to attack republicans with in November), will be determined by the way moderates move on this issue. That’s not my position, that’s how I think things will play out. There’s a difference, so retract your claws.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #356 on: February 23, 2018, 11:13:36 pm »
"Shall not be infringed" is the specific clearly worded language that does indeed do what you claim isn't there.

It's only you that seems to be blind to that fact.

Not just me.  Scalia in Heller confirms that the gun right may be reasonably regulated.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #357 on: February 23, 2018, 11:24:24 pm »
Not just me.  Scalia in Heller confirms that the gun right may be reasonably regulated.

@Smokin Joe and a couple of others already disassembled your feeble attempt to misconstrue what Scalia actually said in order to try and bolster your complete lack of understanding of the 2nd Amendment.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 11:24:44 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline INVAR

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #358 on: February 23, 2018, 11:29:21 pm »
Not just me.  Scalia in Heller confirms that the gun right may be reasonably regulated.

We do not care what some judge who wore black robes had to say about the ability of government to regulate a Right into a grant-of-government privilege (if he even confirms what you attribute to him, which is likely your own interpretation of it).

Get it through your thick, Collectivist skull Comrade: we are NOT going to comply with any further gun control schemes or the "reasonable regulations" you and the foam-at-the-mouth Leftists demand.  Period.

Does not matter what some court, some judge, some congress or some president decrees or passes.  We will refuse to comply.  We will not register, purchase insurance or any other stupid pre-confiscation scheme you and your priesthood of Leftist legal beagles dream up.

You are going to need to empower government agents to go out and attempt to kill a whole lot of Americans who are going to defy and refuse to comply.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline truth_seeker

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Offline LMAO

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #360 on: February 24, 2018, 02:32:53 am »
 A few years old but a good read

 http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/22/gun-restrictions-have-always-bred-defian/3

“Or perhaps they’re just getting more distrustful of the authorities. In fact, American gun owners may have good reason to be skeptical of common assurances that registration records won’t ever be used for anything more than tracking lost and stolen weapons. In New York City, the center of agitation for tighter U.S. gun laws, the registration system for long guns such as rifles and shotguns, established in 1967, was used in the 1990s to confiscate previously lawful semiautomatic rifles.

California state officials pulled a similar stunt, though with a shorter grace period. After the registration of so-called “assault weapons” subsequent to the passage of the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989, Attorney General Dan Lungren reversed official position in 1997 to declare one of the rifles considered legal and subject to registration just a few years earlier—the SKS Sporter—to be illegal. Owners who had complied with the law were forced to surrender their weapons or transfer them out of state.”

« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 02:36:18 am by LMAO »
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #361 on: February 24, 2018, 02:40:15 am »
The bats and guns are in a rider on my homeowner policy.  If I injure somebody with them accidentally (not as a result of any deliberate action) there is a claim to be made.

Sorry I'm late in replying.  That's what I thought you meant.  Was that expensive, if you don't mind my asking?  Did you have to list your weapons separately or anything like that?
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #362 on: February 24, 2018, 02:52:30 am »
@LauraTXNM

Yes - last summer, I drove through the back roads of western KS and OK to get over to Raton.  I wanted to see Johnson Mesa, then continue north on I-25 into Colorado.  Had to stop off the freeway due to one of the most intense thunder storms I've ever been in while driving.  The lightning was incredible.

If you ever have the time, there's an art installation in NM called "The Lightning Field". You spend the night in a cabin with lightning rods all around so you can watch the lightning show ;).
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #363 on: February 24, 2018, 03:00:21 am »
I can kill with a piece of string.
Every sort of trap is made to kill.
Poisons are made to kill.
There is nothing unique about guns... In fact, guns are far better than the above, because guns kill selectively, while all the rest (including the string) do not. Yet all of the above, are unlicensed, easily acquired, and largely unregulated.

Ok, I don't get this point (although it's minor).  Strings, knives, poison are selective too -- you have to intentionally attack a target with them.  Did I misunderstand your use of "selective"?
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #364 on: February 24, 2018, 03:02:27 am »
@Jazzhead

I think making victims of one crime responsible for the costs of a crime committed by someone else is unreasonable to the extreme.  If a kid steals my car and kills someone while running from police is the car owner held responsible?

I think I understand your point.  But it's important to let the police know if your gun is stolen, isn't it?
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #365 on: February 24, 2018, 03:10:20 am »
@Jazzhead

I have no interest in joining this intractable argument and since I wish to keep myself out of the fray, I won’t state my position on it. But, I do think your views probably represent the middle ground on this issue.

After the Parkland shooting, Left and Right are at each other’s throats. I haven’t seen it this vociferous in many years. But that not where this argument will be settled. The vast middle will settle it, depending which side can persuade moderates that their argument is the most sensible, consistent with the second amendment.

And finally, kudos for holding firm to your POV despite being vastly outnumbered. I applaud you for your courage under fire.... :beer:

This is a lovely post.  Kudos!
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #366 on: February 24, 2018, 03:24:30 am »
Then how do you explain the predicate clause?  Proper statutory interpretation requires that you give meaning to the entire statute, not just (in the case of the 2A) the portion after the predicate clause.

What is an "oversimplification" is to claim you know the meaning of the 2A without addressing the predicate clause. 

Note that I am NOT disagreeing with you about the natural right of individual self defense and the Constitution's effective restriction of the federal government's power to deny it.  But that natural right is not described or addressed in the 2A.  It is no more or less protected than the natural right of individual privacy.   

I would like to know what you all think of this:

From https://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

"....It is an absolute truism that law-abiding, armed citizens pose no threat to other law-abiding citizens. The Framers' writings show they also believed this. As we have seen, the Framers understood that "well regulated" militias, that is, armed citizens, ready to form militias that would be well trained, self-regulated and disciplined, would pose no threat to their fellow citizens, but would, indeed, help to 'insure domestic Tranquility' and 'provide for the common defence.'"

Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #367 on: February 24, 2018, 03:27:38 am »
Ok, I don't get this point (although it's minor).  Strings, knives, poison are selective too -- you have to intentionally attack a target with them.  Did I misunderstand your use of "selective"?

@LauraTXNM
No, with the exception of the knife. Otherwise, anything that is a trap is not selective, to include poisons. Feral cats as an instance, have to be hunted, because there is no way to discriminate between a feral cat and a barn cat. 

You don't set a conibear trap around a barnyard, nor a leg trap, nor lay out most poisons, because they are all indiscriminate. All the common raiders around the barn (coon, possum, skunk, fox, coyote, etc) are usually hunted, precisely because a rifle or shotgun is precisely selective, and you are not likely to injure anything other than what you are aiming at.

Even in the wild, snares, traps and poisons don't always give you what you meant to get - a lay for a marten might yield a squirrel... a lay for a beaver might yield a coon, muskrat, mink or even otter.

See?

Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #368 on: February 24, 2018, 03:38:33 am »
@LauraTXNM
No, with the exception of the knife. Otherwise, anything that is a trap is not selective, to include poisons. Feral cats as an instance, have to be hunted, because there is no way to discriminate between a feral cat and a barn cat. 

You don't set a conibear trap around a barnyard, nor a leg trap, nor lay out most poisons, because they are all indiscriminate. All the common raiders around the barn (coon, possum, skunk, fox, coyote, etc) are usually hunted, precisely because a rifle or shotgun is precisely selective, and you are not likely to injure anything other than what you are aiming at.

Even in the wild, snares, traps and poisons don't always give you what you meant to get - a lay for a marten might yield a squirrel... a lay for a beaver might yield a coon, muskrat, mink or even otter.

See?

Yes, thank you.  I was thinking about string or wire to garrote someone, or poison used by Lucretia Borgia.  Different circumstances.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #369 on: February 24, 2018, 04:02:11 am »
Yes, thank you.  I was thinking about string or wire to garrote someone, or poison used by Lucretia Borgia.  Different circumstances.

@LauraTXNM

Ahh... It might be noted that out here in the sticks, we generally avoid killing hoomins. :) But that difference in mindset is important as to why folks don't understand me when I say we need guns to survive. Our requirements wrt killing are much different than yours, and much more necessary day to day. 

That's why gun safes and trigger locks and unloaded weapons  - something that city folks all advocate for - Are absolutely stupid to me. If something is going on out in the yard, I don't have time to mess with all that silly nonsense. Neither do you, btw, but that is far less evident in the city where guns lay on a shelf for months and years... But you'd figure that out mighty quick the first time you need the dang thing.

Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #370 on: February 24, 2018, 04:07:25 am »
@LauraTXNM

Ahh... It might be noted that out here in the sticks, we generally avoid killing hoomins. :) But that difference in mindset is important as to why folks don't understand me when I say we need guns to survive. Our requirements wrt killing are much different than yours, and much more necessary day to day. 

That's why gun safes and trigger locks and unloaded weapons  - something that city folks all advocate for - Are absolutely stupid to me. If something is going on out in the yard, I don't have time to mess with all that silly nonsense. Neither do you, btw, but that is far less evident in the city where guns lay on a shelf for months and years... But you'd figure that out mighty quick the first time you need the dang thing.

@roamer_1 That's why my sister kept the shotgun under her bed ;).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 04:08:35 am by LauraTXNM »
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Online SZonian

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #371 on: February 24, 2018, 04:07:32 am »
We do not care what some judge who wore black robes had to say about the ability of government to regulate a Right into a grant-of-government privilege (if he even confirms what you attribute to him, which is likely your own interpretation of it).

Get it through your thick, Collectivist skull Comrade: we are NOT going to comply with any further gun control schemes or the "reasonable regulations" you and the foam-at-the-mouth Leftists demand.  Period.

Does not matter what some court, some judge, some congress or some president decrees or passes.  We will refuse to comply.  We will not register, purchase insurance or any other stupid pre-confiscation scheme you and your priesthood of Leftist legal beagles dream up.

You are going to need to empower government agents to go out and attempt to kill a whole lot of Americans who are going to defy and refuse to comply.
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Offline LMAO

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #372 on: February 24, 2018, 05:26:23 pm »
Looking back on all these replies, my only question would be what’s the end game plan for, what would sure to be, mass non compliance with a gun registration/ insurance plan?



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Offline INVAR

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #373 on: February 24, 2018, 06:45:45 pm »
Looking back on all these replies, my only question would be what’s the end game plan for, what would sure to be, mass non compliance with a gun registration/ insurance plan?

Punishment.  Massive draconian punishment.

There are enough subtle suggestions out there online from the unhinged anti-gun/Leftists that have said that those who refuse to comply with "sensible registration" schemes are selfish 'terrorists/Nazis/murderers' and a plague/scourge on the 'community' that deserve to be 'removed' for the safety of "our democracy".  Most simply warn that those who refuse to comply will 'face' law enforcement and 'suffer' the consequences of prison or death for not complying.

Their end plan is to make the 2nd Amendment a severely regulated government-granted privilege and make very public examples of 'gun nuts' who refuse to comply with their diktats in the hopes that it will cause a climate of fear and force the rest of those with guns to comply.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Obnoxious, ignorant teens now demand curbs on guns
« Reply #374 on: February 24, 2018, 08:31:43 pm »
@LauraTXNM , a rough analogy to the sort of insurance I have in mind is PIP (Personal Injury Protection) insurance, which is a mandatory extension of car insurance in many states.    It covers medical expenses and, in many cases, lost wages as the result of injuries suffered in a car accident.  It is sometimes called "no-fault" because it is agnostic of who is at fault in the accident.   

As applied to guns,  the idea is for a gun owner to register and insure his guns,  with the insurance available to pay the medical bills and lost wages of a victim of violence committed while using an insured gun.   The insurance would pay off if the act of violence occurs while the gun is covered by the insurance - and such coverage would remain in force until such time as the gun's ownership is lawfully transferred, the gun is lawfully disposed of, or the gun is reported stolen to the police.    The incentive is therefore in place for a gun owner to keep weapons secured from unauthorized use, to effect only "official" and traceable dispositions of the guns he owns (that is, not selling the thing out of the back of a truck but rather using a broker that upon resale will run the requisite background checks),  and to promptly report stolen guns.   Otherwise, his insurance policy will pay off and his premiums will go up.   

The idea isn't to "cast gun owners in a bad light" or to make it too expensive for them to afford to defend themselves.  Rather, the idea is to encourage gun owners to be responsible,  to secure their guns against unauthorized use (like Adam Lanza taking his mom's guns), to effect only lawful transfers, and to report stolen weapons.    Does anyone here really think that demanding such responsibility from gunowners is unreasonable?       
Well, wrong. "No Fault insurance" means if I get in a wreck, regardless of who is at fault, my insurance company pays for my problems, and their insurance company pays for theirs. My insurance company reimburses me for my losses (would buy me another gun), their insurance company pays for their losses (?). The "No-Fault" model does not work unless everyone is carrying "no-fault" insurance. You want the responsible, compliant, gun owners to pick up the tab for the acts of criminals and nutcases who aren't likely to comply, anyway.

(you might recognize this phrase)
Quote
"...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without Due Process of Law."

Those who have committed no crime would be thus deprived, regardless, and on a per firearm, not even just a per person basis, essentially penalizing an object for the actions of humans, a theme we have already seen used in "Civil Asset Forfeiture" enabling passers by to be looted by LEOs at will.
 
As for even implying that the vast majority of gunowners aren't responsible or would for a New York Second permit unauthorized use of their firearms, you can crawl into the warm dark orifice that produced that comment and rot, for all I care. It will likely do nothing to improve the smell.
 
What you have outlined is a joke. If the only people covered would be those injured with an insured gun, would that gun remain insured if stolen and wielded by someone else?

If someone steals my car and runs over a bunch of schoolchildren crossing the street, does my insurance company have to pay out? (No, the insurance is not in effect for criminal acts, nor acts of war, declared or undeclared, and it would be no different with firearms, and would not cover the unauthorized use of the vehicle).
 
 With that in mind, would this provide the deep running trough for lawyers to gobble contingency fees from? Would the insurance companies pay the bills? Nope, and Nope. That isn't the way that works. Would the owner be found liable, even if the safe he had them in had been breached? Maybe, in courts where not being baked a cake wins the lawsuit lotto.

But the responsibility for the actions of the perpetrator should belong solely with the perpetrator. Contributing factors may be noted and addressed, but I don't know any gun owners who want their guns stolen or used by others they don't even know in wholesale slaughter. But maybe some creative shyster can sue the iron mines which mined the iron which was made into steel which was made into a firearm which was sold to a dealer which was purchased legally which was stolen and used in a crime, or maybe y'all can go back to focusing on the criminals and quit making excuses for them.

Adam Lanza killed his mother and then proceeded to make off with the (rest of the) guns. She had a problem with reporting the theft--she was too dead to do so. To imply that she was OK with any of that is simply beyond the pale, even for you.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 08:32:41 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis