Author Topic: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?  (Read 1221 times)

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Online corbe

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Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?

Today’s populist resurgence has us rethinking the role these movements play in U.S. politics.


By JOSHUA ZEITZ
January 14, 2018


This article is the third in a series on how President Donald Trump changed history—reviving historical debates that have simmered on low heat for years, and altering how historians think about them. See the other articles in the series here and here.

Imagine, if you will, that millions of hard-working Americans finally reached their boiling point. Roiled by an unsettling pattern of economic booms and busts; powerless before a haughty coastal elite that in recent decades had effectively arrogated the nation’s banks, means of production and distribution, and even its information highway; burdened by the toll that open borders and free trade imposed on their communities; incensed by rising economic inequality and the concentration of political power—what if these Americans registered their disgust by forging a new political movement with a distinctly backward-looking, even revanchist, outlook? What if they rose up as one and tried to make America great again?

Would you regard such a movement as worthy of support and nurture—as keeping with the democratic tradition of Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson? Or would you mainly dread the ugly tone it would inevitably assume—its fear of the immigrant and the Jew, its frequent lapse into white supremacy, its slipshod grasp of political economy and its potentially destabilizing effect on longstanding institutions and norms?

To clarify: This scenario has nothing whatsoever to do with Donald Trump and the modern Republican Party. Rather, it is a question that consumed social and political historians for the better part of a century. They clashed sharply in assessing the essential character of the Populist movement of the late 1800s—a political and economic uprising that briefly drew under one tent a ragtag coalition of Southern and Western farmers (both black and white), urban workers, and utopian newspapermen and polemicists.

<..snip..>

 But Hofstadter is most useful when we scratch below that surface. His goal wasn’t to establish that populists, who over time have pursued a wide variety of ideological and policy ends, are bad people. His larger point was that populist eyes are often cast in the wrong direction—backward. At critical junctures in history, they prove unreconciled to economic and cultural change and to globalization, both in the form of open markets and open borders. They endeavor to reestablish lost worlds—a Jeffersonian republic of small farms and independent shops, or a latter-day utopia of tidy suburbs and unionized factories and mines, that have no hope of survival in a changing world. They bitterly but understandably resist acknowledgment that the country in which they grew up has irrevocably changed.

<..snip..>

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/14/trump-populism-history-216320
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline dfwgator

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Ask ten people what "Populism" is, and you'll get ten different answers.

Online corbe

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   Rather long, but quite interesting article on this individuals perspective history of populism.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Populism is like a deadly virus to the constitution.

Its progressivism by another name.

Offline Sanguine

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Populism is like a deadly virus to the constitution.

Its progressivism by another name.

What he said.

Offline goatprairie

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Populism gives rise to demagogues. They  manipulate the mob and whip them up with emotional appeals. Not that I could give any names to possible present demagogues.  :whistle:

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Populism is like a deadly virus to the constitution.

Its progressivism by another name.
Oh, yeah, that Tea Party movement was SO progressive. *****rollingeyes*****
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Offline skeeter

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Ask ten people what "Populism" is, and you'll get ten different answers.

I don't know what would be the correct name for a constitutionally grounded response to address the problem we have with our current political system, but we can say with certainty that what we have now has little basis in the Constitution, either.

An Article V Convention, perhaps. But who sees that happening?

Offline Sanguine

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I don't know what would be the correct name for a constitutionally grounded response to address the problem we have with our current political system, but we can say with certainty that what we have now has little basis in the Constitution, either.

An Article V Convention, perhaps. But who sees that happening?

Mark Levin, for one.  These guys for another:  https://conventionofstates.com/sign_the_petition


Offline skeeter

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Mark Levin, for one.  These guys for another:  https://conventionofstates.com/sign_the_petition

I'd love nothing better. I wonder, though, that since the other side obviously believes in 'by any means necessary' whether any civilized attempt to correct the current direction of the ship of state can succeed.

Not endorsing Populism, just wondering what can possibly be effective against Progressivism which by its nature is inherently in the interests of the state.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2018, 05:10:05 pm »
Populism gives rise to demagogues. They  manipulate the mob and whip them up with emotional appeals. Not that I could give any names to possible present demagogues.  :whistle:

There always has to be a primary enemy with multiple others. Hitler had the Jews, Chavez had America, and Trump has the media

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 05:18:09 pm »
Mohamed is now the most common first name in The Netherlands.  Populism opposes that.

The forces trying to block further advances into Europe by Islam, country by country, are populist forces.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 06:15:35 pm »
Ask ten people what "Populism" is, and you'll get ten different answers.
At least nine of them will be wrong.

What is populism? Simply put, it is the belief that the common man has the right not to be ruled by an elite ruling class. Our country was founded on populism. It is, inherently, neither left-wing nor right-wing, neither libertarian nor authoritarian, neither good nor evil. It ranges from Tea Party protests against the Obama regime to socialist uprisings against the Tsar in Russia.

It can be a healthy response to corrupt leadership, or a process itself that can corrupt far more by manipulating people into believing falsehoods.
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 07:06:47 pm »
At least nine of them will be wrong.

What is populism? Simply put, it is the belief that the common man has the right not to be ruled by an elite ruling class. Our country was founded on populism. It is, inherently, neither left-wing nor right-wing, neither libertarian nor authoritarian, neither good nor evil. It ranges from Tea Party protests against the Obama regime to socialist uprisings against the Tsar in Russia.

It can be a healthy response to corrupt leadership, or a process itself that can corrupt far more by manipulating people into believing falsehoods.
Huey Long was a populist.  What he championed would have been worse than Roosevelt. The Know-Nothings were populist.
 You're right, populism is not inherently wrong, but it depends on what the issue is and who gets in front of the crowd. Populism isn't always savory or constitutional.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 07:25:45 pm »
from  section  on wiki, it seems historians have debated the term:

"Debate by historians over populism[edit]

Since the 1890s historians have vigorously debated the nature of Populism; most scholars have been liberals who admired the Populists for their attacks on banks and railroads. Some historians see a close link between the Populists of the 1890s and the progressives of 1900-1912, but most of the leading progressives (except Bryan himself) fiercely opposed Populism. For example, Theodore Roosevelt, George W. Norris, Robert La Follette Sr., William Allen White and Woodrow Wilson all strongly opposed Populism. It is debated whether any Populist ideas made their way into the Democratic party during the New Deal era. The New Deal farm programs were designed by experts (like Henry Wallace) who had nothing to do with Populism.[18]

People's Party campaign poster from 1904 touting the candidacy of Thomas E. Watson
Some historians see the populists as forward-looking liberal reformers. Others view them as reactionaries trying to recapture an idyllic and utopian past. For some they were radicals out to restructure American life, and for others they were economically hard-pressed agrarians seeking government relief. Much recent scholarship emphasizes Populism's debt to early American republicanism.[19] Clanton (1991) stresses that Populism was "the last significant expression of an old radical tradition that derived from Enlightenment sources that had been filtered through a political tradition that bore the distinct imprint of Jeffersonian, Jacksonian, and Lincolnian democracy." This tradition emphasized human rights over the cash nexus of the Gilded Age's dominant ideology.[20]

snip"

Apparently there isn't a single definition, that can be turned to the purpose of demeaning the movement, much to the disappointment of some.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(United_States)#Debate_by_historians_over_populism
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 07:49:41 pm »
I'd love nothing better. I wonder, though, that since the other side obviously believes in 'by any means necessary' whether any civilized attempt to correct the current direction of the ship of state can succeed.

Not endorsing Populism, just wondering what can possibly be effective against Progressivism which by its nature is inherently in the interests of the state.

That is the question isn't it?  Can the good guys win?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 07:52:25 pm »
At least nine of them will be wrong.

What is populism? Simply put, it is the belief that the common man has the right not to be ruled by an elite ruling class. Our country was founded on populism. It is, inherently, neither left-wing nor right-wing, neither libertarian nor authoritarian, neither good nor evil. It ranges from Tea Party protests against the Obama regime to socialist uprisings against the Tsar in Russia.

It can be a healthy response to corrupt leadership, or a process itself that can corrupt far more by manipulating people into believing falsehoods.

Populism is another word for "grassroots democracy", and the problem with both is that the desires of the majority trump the rule of law.  I know, it sounds all stuffy and stodgy: "rule of law", but as with populism you have to get past the feelings and emotions and and go deep.

Offline DB

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 07:52:57 pm »
Populism is political vigilantism. Sometimes the mob is right, sometimes it is wrong. When it is wrong great injustice is done. The bottom line is it is driven by mob emotions and not principle. It requires a leader who can whip up its followers to get them to do what otherwise basic decency would prevent them from doing. It "gets things done", without a whole lot of regard to truth or due process because it is emotionally rewarding crushing the target of their fiery.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 07:57:47 pm »
That is the question isn't it?  Can the good guys win?

Can they win and by what means.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 07:57:54 pm »
Oh, yeah, that Tea Party movement was SO progressive. *****rollingeyes*****

The Tea Party was about Constitutionalism, not Populism.

The guy in the WH now is all about Populism, and not Constitutionalism.

And the fact that "historians" have long thought it a good thing should tell you quite a bit about from whence populism derives.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 07:59:27 pm »
Populism is political vigilantism. Sometimes the mob is right, sometimes it is wrong. When it is wrong great injustice is done. The bottom line is it is driven by mob emotions and not principle. It requires a leader who can whip up its followers to get them to do what otherwise basic decency would prevent them from doing. It "gets things done", without a whole lot of regard to truth or due process because it is emotionally rewarding crushing the target of their fiery.

Well said, @DB

Emotionalism in politics does not end well.

Where we are now will not end well.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 08:11:34 pm »
Populism is political vigilantism. Sometimes the mob is right, sometimes it is wrong. When it is wrong great injustice is done. The bottom line is it is driven by mob emotions and not principle. It requires a leader who can whip up its followers to get them to do what otherwise basic decency would prevent them from doing. It "gets things done", without a whole lot of regard to truth or due process because it is emotionally rewarding crushing the target of their fiery.

Our fnation's founders were not fans of populism because they knew it was mob rule because they knew it would abandon the rule of law for might makes right.

I haven't forgotten the warnings and threats of Trumpers at TOS who said things like "The constitution can wait" or "Trump is the dictator we need" and my personal favorite "You and your kind will one day be deported from Trump's America".

The early tea party was absolutely not populist and Trump himself wanted it destroyed (they later took the orange acid and Trump liked them). The early tea party was a strongly federalist movement and today its exactly opposite and seeks top down rule or else.

Offline DB

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Re: Historians Have Long Thought Populism Was a Good Thing. Are They Wrong?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 08:33:30 pm »
Our nation's founders were not fans of populism because they knew it was mob rule because they knew it would abandon the rule of law for might makes right.

I haven't forgotten the warnings and threats of Trumpers at TOS who said things like "The constitution can wait" or "Trump is the dictator we need" and my personal favorite "You and your kind will one day be deported from Trump's America".

The early tea party was absolutely not populist and Trump himself wanted it destroyed (they later took the orange acid and Trump liked them). The early tea party was a strongly federalist movement and today its exactly opposite and seeks top down rule or else.

No argument from me.