Author Topic: 16th-Century Shipwreck Off Florida Is Causing an International Dispute  (Read 576 times)

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rangerrebew

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16th-Century Shipwreck Off Florida Is Causing an International Dispute
By Tom Metcalfe, Live Science Contributor | November 6, 2017 06:20am ET
 

A Florida court is hearing arguments about who has the right to recover artifacts from the remains of a 16th-century shipwreck lying on the seafloor near Cape Canaveral.

The long-lost ship's debris include a bounty of artifacts, including three ornate brass cannons and a distinctive marble monument marked with the coat of arms of the King of France, which may be among the earliest traces of European settlement ever found in the Americas.

https://www.livescience.com/60859-shipwreck-excavation-awaits-court-ruling.html

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 16th-Century Shipwreck Off Florida Is Causing an International Dispute
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 11:16:43 pm »
From the comments: (Tod McNeal)
Quote
And lastly: Not in this case, but in so many Spanish cases the gold silver and jewels should go back to the country of origin not the Conquistadors who stole it in the first place. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard that stolen stuff that sank on a European flagged ship could go back to the Europeans instead of the country who the stuff originally came from.

I, personally, believe there should be a reward for the research, effort, and expense of looking for and finding such wrecks. As far as shipwrecks go, or "pirate treasure" or other hoards of valuables where individual ownership cannot be established, there should be a limit to claims by governments. Warships, the property of those governments, and all too often the graves of servicemen, should be respected as such.

This, however, reminds me of the tactics taken when the Atocha was found, where the Government--in this case people who had risked nothing, who had done their 9 to 5 stint with weekends and holidays off, sought to seize the fruits of countless hours of labor and the very lives risked to find it. The government issued the permit, the terms should apply, and it should all be down in black and white before the first line is cast off.

I have witnessed the gentrification of fossils (Yes, Virginia, it's illegal --a felony--to pick up a dinosaur (or other fossil) bone on Federal Land, even if you are a professional and found the site), the same of "cultural artifacts" on any but private land (arrowheads, pottery fragments, flake debris), and increasingly, the gateways to research articles are slammed in the face of anyone who can't show a connection to a university or isn't willing to shell out 40 bucks (and up) to get past the paywall for 24 hours (that doesn't buy a copy, nor permit a download, just a look).

I was in an area where there were (literally) dozens of fossil turtles exposed, up to 6 ft. across, all eroding and washing away because no one but a government approved, grant funded, university backed researcher could legally remove one--for anyone else, it's a felony. Better, imho, for that fossil to end up in a cardboard box in some kid's garage than wash down the creek. At least there is a chance the fossil will be examined someday, and it may spark a career if someone is allowed to research it on their own. Same for archaeological finds in peril of washing away.

So-called amateurs can learn and observe the techniques needed to preserve data--if the various experts who will NEVER have enough people or funding to research these sites, ( nor people as passionately dedicated to doing so in an efficient manner as that horde of organized and seriously interested people can) will just share the information about the sort of data they need and the collection methods which must be observed. Chances are some one will come up with refined or new techniques which will produce even better data faster if others with an interest are allowed to apply their knowledge to problems in the field.

But if people want to know why STEM fields are languishing, they need look no further than the laws which restrict the budding interest in them, and the opportune looting of finds by authorities.  "What's the point?", many youngsters will say.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

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Re: 16th-Century Shipwreck Off Florida Is Causing an International Dispute
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2017, 11:32:07 pm »
[...] But if people want to know why STEM fields are languishing, they need look no further than the laws which restrict the budding interest in them, and the opportune looting of finds by authorities.  "What's the point?", many youngsters will say.

I am one of them. Indeed, there was no point. Toe the line, opinion-wise, grovel at the feet of professors, and pray you get to a tenured position, and endowed by a museum in 20 years or so after working countless sites for free, with some puffed up professor getting all the credit... Like the native paintings I found - Excellent site. No credit, no part in the proceeds from pottery and arrowheads and such... Hell, not even access to what was my discovery in the first place. Screw em. So I contented myself to study Archeo/Anthro on my own, and never went that way. But it will always be my first love.

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Re: 16th-Century Shipwreck Off Florida Is Causing an International Dispute
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 11:39:45 pm »
If governments don't reclaim their own wrecks in a timely manner then they should lose their rights to the spoils if someone else does. Period.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 16th-Century Shipwreck Off Florida Is Causing an International Dispute
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 01:19:20 am »
I am one of them. Indeed, there was no point. Toe the line, opinion-wise, grovel at the feet of professors, and pray you get to a tenured position, and endowed by a museum in 20 years or so after working countless sites for free, with some puffed up professor getting all the credit... Like the native paintings I found - Excellent site. No credit, no part in the proceeds from pottery and arrowheads and such... Hell, not even access to what was my discovery in the first place. Screw em. So I contented myself to study Archeo/Anthro on my own, and never went that way. But it will always be my first love.
I loved doing Archaeology work. It didn't pay worth a darn, but it was fun. Sadly, even the amateur who regards, strict site discipline, and who records everything is only setting themselves up for being prosecuted on antiquity laws.

When that bunch of "professionals" peeled open the coffin of one of my relatives, dug up from beneath the floor of a chapel in St. Mary's City in MD, showing her pubic region bare on national TV, well, enough is enough. They could have bothered to research just who was buried there and realized they still have relatives in the region, but didn't. So much for professionalism. And they accuse the amateurs of "grave robbing".

If I made a major find, likely I'd concoct some provenance in the event I wanted to sell it, or get one of those
"Made in China" stickers that are on everything nowadays, put it on the bottom, and enjoy it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis