Author Topic: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches  (Read 3313 times)

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Offline Chosen Daughter

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The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« on: November 03, 2017, 02:28:28 am »
The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches

Posted at 4:00 pm on November 2, 2017 by Susan Wright


With the rollout of the New GOP tax reform bill today, along with it comes the hidden nuggets of disappointment.

In particular is an issue that I’ve talked about before, and I’m no less convinced that it’s a good idea today than I have been.

That’s because it’s not a good idea. It’s a horrible idea.

Near the end of the bill is a rollback of the Johnson Amendment, which prevents churches from endorsing political candidates.

According to Trump, stumping for men and a fleshly world system on Sundays is an act of worship.


https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/11/02/gops-new-tax-bill-holds-big-change-churches/

I didn't see any media covering this little jewel in the tax plan.  I wonder if churches will announce what political affiliation they are now.  They will be pushing candidates like Donald Trump down people's throats.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 02:44:50 am »
Do you have any idea as to the role Churches played in the bringing forth of this country?  And BTW,  there's  was neither an in c ome tax, an IRS, and certainly no Johnson rule back then. 

This alone makes the bill worthy of passage!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 03:00:02 am »
Do you have any idea as to the role Churches played in the bringing forth of this country?  And BTW,  there's  was neither an in c ome tax, an IRS, and certainly no Johnson rule back then. 

This alone makes the bill worthy of passage!

And neither politics or church was a money making scam back then.  What has changed is total corruption.  And the men they were putting forward were men who knew the Lord and recognized Him in their speaking.  Things have really changed now.  Politicians and pastors posing for pictures in front of playboy. 

I wanted to check on the Founding Fathers and politics.  I discovered that they did know the power of division and corruption.  They wrote about it.  They may not have had the Johnson rule but they fully knew how politics could divide.  I imagine that they saw division in the church also since there was so much written on this.

Imagine what they would have to say about church and politics today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Adams said:


There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.

George Washington agreed, saying in his farewell presidential speech:

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/07/the-founding-fathers-tried-to-warn-us-about-the-threat-from-a-two-party-system.html

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
 ~ Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Francis Hopkinson (March 13, 1789).  In: Merrill D. Peterson (ed.), Letters of Thomas Jefferson, New York, 1984, pp. 940-42.  [PL Ford, Writings of Thomas Jefferson, vol. 5, pp. 75-78].

You will soon find that so inveterate is the rancor of party spirit among us, that nothing ought to be credited but what we hear with our own ears. If you are less on your guard than we are here, at this moment, the designs of the mischief-makers will not fail to be accomplished, and brethren and friends will be made strangers and enemies to each other,
 ~ Thomas Jefferson, To James Monroe, March 1808

A difference in politics should never be permitted to enter into social intercourse, or to disturb its friendships, its charities or justice.
 ~ Thomas Jefferson, To Henry Lee, Aug. 10, 1824
“The small progress we have made after 4 or 5 weeks close attendance and continual reasonings with each other, our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ayes, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the human understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running all about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examin’d the different forms of those republics, which, having been originally form’d with the seeds of their own dissolution, now no longer exist. And we have view’d modern states all ’round Europe, but find none of their constitutions suitable to our circumstances.
“In this situation of this Assembly, groping, as it were, in the dark, to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not, hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of Lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard; — and they were graciously answered. All of us, who were engag’d in the struggle, must have observ’d frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favour. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth, That God governs in the affairs of men! — And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? — We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; — and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests, our projects will be confounded and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future Ages. And what is worse, Mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom, and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
“I therefore beg leave to move: That henceforth prayers, imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business; and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.”

~ Benjamin Franklin, Motion for Prayers in the Constitutional Convention (28 June 1787). [Note: The Convention adjourned without voting on Franklin’s motion.]

https://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/party-strife-founding-fathers/

« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 03:42:53 am by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline KingsX

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 03:09:38 am »

I didn't see any media covering this little jewel in the tax plan.



I heard a little about it on the news within the past week.
But it was pretty much stealth.

Considering how liberal most churches are today,  I don't
see much advantage of unbridling the horses now that the
barn has burned down.



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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 03:19:19 am »
That, and people keep fleeing the churches in droves anyway, so even if they do get political, fewer people are listening.
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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 03:21:00 am »
That, and people keep fleeing the churches in droves anyway, so even if they do get political, fewer people are listening.

Lots of painting with very broad brushes going on around here it seems to me!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline KingsX

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 03:31:28 am »



The old Bolsheviks had it all wrong... they destroyed Marx's  "opium of the people" instead of using it to their advantage.

Like Stalin did during WW2 in reaction to Germans winning the hearts of Russians by reopening churches in German-occupied [liberated??] parts of Russia...  Putin is using a carefully controlled  revived "Soviet Church" to further his political agenda.



« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 03:34:30 am by KingsX »

Online Bigun

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 03:44:01 am »
And neither politics or church was a money making scam back then.  What has changed is total corruption.  And the men they were putting forward were men who knew the Lord and recognized Him in their speaking.  Things have really changed now.  Politicians and pastors posing for pictures in front of playboy.

None of which has a thing to do with removing the Johnson amendment which, just like everything else in our government today, is being selectively  enforced!  Only those Churches who say things the power brokers don't like feel the wrath!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 03:49:01 am »


The old Bolsheviks had it all wrong... they destroyed Marx's  "opium of the people" instead of using it to their advantage.

Like Stalin did during WW2 in reaction to Germans winning the hearts of Russians by reopening churches in German-occupied [liberated??] parts of Russia...  Putin is using a carefully controlled  revived "Soviet Church" to further his political agenda.

I will admit that one of the first things I think of is how Hitler took over the church.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 03:56:00 am »
Near the end of the bill is a rollback of the Johnson Amendment, which prevents churches from endorsing political candidates.


Good. Only a RINO hack at Red State would want the Feds nose in the tents of churches to make sure they are preaching what they want them to. It isn't anybodies business if preachers push candidates, kool aid or cigarettes.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 03:58:13 am »
None of which has a thing to do with removing the Johnson amendment which, just like everything else in our government today, is being selectively  enforced!  Only those Churches who say things the power brokers don't like feel the wrath!
Precisely. You just can't tell me the likes of Jeremiah Wright and Imams all over aren't pushing politics from the pulpit.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline KingsX

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 04:02:39 am »

I will admit that one of the first things I think of is how Hitler took over the church.



When Putin first took control of Russia,  I wondered if he would be another Hitler [considering his German connection] or another Stalin.  Apparently he chose Stalin.  Either way the revived Russian church has become an important part of Putin's control and helps further his political agenda.  Putin's non-Russian  "Russian" Defense Minister [blasphemously] gives the sign of the cross at Putin's revived Stalinist red army parades.




Offline corbe

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 04:05:22 am »
   Very good point @Frank Cannon but you overlook the importance of the Evangelical Vote on Super Tuesday, big disappointment for Sen. Cruz last time, this just fortifies Trumps re election capabilities, by government fiat, it's immoral.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 04:10:01 am »
   Very good point @Frank Cannon but you overlook the importance of the Evangelical Vote on Super Tuesday, big disappointment for Sen. Cruz last time, this just fortifies Trumps re election capabilities, by government fiat, it's immoral.

I still can't figure out why Evangelicals pushed a butt grabbing Trump over Cruz.  All this is going to do is divide Christians over politics.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 04:13:13 am »
   Very good point @Frank Cannon but you overlook the importance of the Evangelical Vote on Super Tuesday, big disappointment for Sen. Cruz last time, this just fortifies Trumps re election capabilities, by government fiat, it's immoral.

If I recall the Evangies were on team Trump from the jump. Cruz was an all around loser this election cycle and that is why he couldn't bring them on board. There is more to swaying religious voters than waving a bible around. Cruz didn't have anything but burned out Reaganisms and a wooden presence.

BTW what business is it of yours if the Holy Rollers push Trump into a second term? Don't like it, find a candidate that can beat Trump if he is such a loser. My bet is that another clown show of third party eff ups will be stickering your bumper again in '20.

Offline corbe

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 04:14:33 am »
I still can't figure out why Evangelicals pushed a butt grabbing Trump over Cruz.  All this is going to do is divide Christians over politics.
   @Chosen Daughter

   I stopped trying to figure it out when I realized the amount of Catholics that voted for pro choice obummer.
   Your Faith is not something that can be compromised.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2017, 04:15:52 am »
I still can't figure out why Evangelicals pushed a butt grabbing Trump over Cruz.  All this is going to do is divide Christians over politics.

Because Cruz had nothing new to say. He had the same old Conservative song and dance that was a bore, and I am a guy that still has a Cruz sticker on his car. Cruz had no charm. Cruz had no presence. His general appearance blended into the wallpaper and curtains he stood in front of. He is a candidate straight out of 1988.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2017, 04:21:35 am »
Because Cruz had nothing new to say. He had the same old Conservative song and dance that was a bore, and I am a guy that still has a Cruz sticker on his car. Cruz had no charm. Cruz had no presence. His general appearance blended into the wallpaper and curtains he stood in front of. He is a candidate straight out of 1988.
And that is exactly why I love him.  He embodies what we need, a genuine human being we can identify with.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 04:21:57 am »
Because Cruz had nothing new to say. He had the same old Conservative song and dance that was a bore, and I am a guy that still has a Cruz sticker on his car. Cruz had no charm. Cruz had no presence. His general appearance blended into the wallpaper and curtains he stood in front of. He is a candidate straight out of 1988.

Exactly why we don't need the church pushing political candidates.  It isn't about charm.  It isn't about fame or fortune.  The church needs to remain free from the world and its charmers.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2017, 04:22:09 am »
Because Cruz had nothing new to say. He had the same old Conservative song and dance that was a bore, and I am a guy that still has a Cruz sticker on his car. Cruz had no charm. Cruz had no presence. His general appearance blended into the wallpaper and curtains he stood in front of. He is a candidate straight out of 1988.

That's about the long and short of it.  At one point I asked (here I think) if Cruz possibly had a touch of Aspergers or similar because of what seemed to me him not being able to connect with an audience.

Offline corbe

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2017, 04:27:37 am »
If I recall the Evangies were on team Trump from the jump. Cruz was an all around loser this election cycle and that is why he couldn't bring them on board. There is more to swaying religious voters than waving a bible around. Cruz didn't have anything but burned out Reaganisms and a wooden presence.

BTW what business is it of yours if the Holy Rollers push Trump into a second term? Don't like it, find a candidate that can beat Trump if he is such a loser. My bet is that another clown show of third party eff ups will be stickering your bumper again in '20.

   I had to think about it @Frank Cannon what hit the cover of Peckers National Enquirer the week of Super Tuesday, oh yea, Cruz~6 mistresses, and the Rubio Bible flap in NC, I'll take that "burned out Reaganisms and a wooden presence" over this twittering fool that keeps stepping on his pecker.

   On your second point I agree and a Third Party challenge to Trump is already a year behind, nothing will happen in that arena until after the midterms.

   Question: If Trump decides he's got his participation trophy and it's not worth the aggravation anymore does an LBJ would you rather Pence or Cruz, screw the other 20 clowns?
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2017, 04:28:06 am »
That's about the long and short of it.  At one point I asked (here I think) if Cruz possibly had a touch of Aspergers or similar because of what seemed to me him not being able to connect with an audience.

OMG! Did you just agree with a loser like me? That can't be. I'll have to reread your post a couple more times. I'm positive there is an insult towards me hidden in there somewhere.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2017, 04:30:31 am »
OMG! Did you just agree with a loser like me? That can't be. I'll have to reread your post a couple more times. I'm positive there is an insult towards me hidden in there somewhere.

Every now and then I like to surprise.

Offline corbe

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2017, 04:34:48 am »
@Frank Cannon

His general appearance blended into the wallpaper and curtains he stood in front of.

No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The GOP’s New Tax Bill Holds a Big Change for Churches
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2017, 04:41:10 am »
@Frank Cannon

His general appearance blended into the wallpaper and curtains he stood in front of.



Meh, just rip the carpet out, go with bare floor.