Author Topic: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops  (Read 5371 times)

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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2017, 05:17:32 pm »
Why?  I've heard arguments that service by homosexuals/transgenders may damage unit cohesion -  now you're saying they represent a national security threat?   C'mon, let's get real.

The 41% Suicide Attempt makes the argument.

That compromises Military Readiness, which compromises National Security.
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2017, 05:19:18 pm »
Why?  I've heard arguments that service by homosexuals/transgenders may damage unit cohesion -  now you're saying they represent a national security threat?   C'mon, let's get real.


They always did.  It's just that recently we've let ignorant and ideologically blinded people into positions of power,  and of course they made foolish changes with no concern for consequences.   


The Cambridge Five spy group were Homosexuals,  and so was Bradley Manning.    For 1.8% of the population,  they are way over represented in the ranks of spies and traitors. 


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Online bigheadfred

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2017, 06:29:14 pm »
Anyone out there know why Japanese-Americans were put in camps during WWII?
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2017, 06:45:53 pm »
Anyone out there know why Japanese-Americans were put in camps during WWII?

 Racism amplified by the perceived exigencies of war. 
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2017, 06:46:02 pm »
Anyone out there know why Japanese-Americans were put in camps during WWII?


For the same reason German-Americans were put in camps during WWI.   


People thought they would support the enemy. 


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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2017, 11:48:54 pm »
@Jazzhead @DiogenesLamp

Right with both of your replies.

My point being, that from a military standpoint, this country doesn't have a problem dealing with you, en masse, if they don't think you are trustworthy. Therefore a national security threat. I suggest there is no difference with the transgenders.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2017, 12:01:53 am »
He's still not above the law.   Why, if you say you're a conservative, do you want him to be? 

The plaintiffs' complaint is that the rule has no military justification, but rather is a political sop to social conservatives. 

I have no opinion on the merits of the complaint.  I have no dog in this hunt. 

Again - the merits of the plaintiffs' case will be decided in due time.  In the meantime, the ruling that so many are whining about merely keeps the status quo in place pending that decision.   That's because good soldiers relied on the prior rule to reveal themselves as transgenders and continue to honorably serve.
Will you quit with the "whining" bullshit? Your whining about other people simply trying to set the record straight is really getting annoying.

Fact: The Military is under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It is a separate judicial system from the ordinary civilian courts, and was established as such because the entire situation in the Armed Forces is different that it is for civilians. When an order is given in the military, it needs to be followed under all but the most special circumstances, and those usually involving an act which would be a violation of the UCMJ.

There is no time to quibble in civil courts in an organization built on obedience to orders, which requires that obedience to function effectively in its role as the main line of defense of our nation. I could not conceive of a more effective way to hobble, shackle, neuter, and generally render ineffective our Armed Forces than to open them to the endless whinging, pissing, and moaning of the attorney feeding trough of civil suits over every order. You want a country? Don't even start this shit, or you will be speaking another language, and waling under someone else's flag, because our military couldn't function without getting through ten years of bullshit to fire a shot. I have seen what the civil courts can do to building a mere pipeline, a great steel hose to move liquids, and know full well you would have to learn Chinese or Russian or both if that was done to our Armed forces, provided you even survived the invasions.

So let's grow up a little, and acknowledge there are definite life and death situations which require an ability to function, without question, on demand, which brook neither quibbling nor question. Those qualities being essential to the defense of this nation, the justice system which every recruit signs on to when they enlist or are conscripted is different, and separate from the civilian justice system--of necessity.

When the Commander in Chief gives an order, he is at the top of the chain of command. The chain of command is important to the functioning of the military. Those of higher rank give orders to those of lower rank, and those of lower rank are expected to carry those orders out. That may involve others giving orders to those of lesser rank, and so on, but it does not involve any civilian judges.

Civilian judges are outside the UCMJ, and outside the chain of command. They have no more authority that a traffic cop in Tampa has in Toronto, Ontario or London, England. None, zip, nada, zero.

The judge is ruling on something she has no authority over, and as such, the ruling is void. The President not only may, but should ignore the ruling, except to point out that the judge has no authority over this. 

If that frosts your cookies, I'd suggest you avoid military service, which by your reticence in answering my question many posts back, I assume you have.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2017, 12:06:45 am »
Anyone out there know why Japanese-Americans were put in camps during WWII?
Fear of sabotage and or espionage was the biggest reason. Fear of divided loyalties in the event the Japanese mounted an invasion of the West Coast was next. For similar reasons,, Japanese-American Troops were sent to places like Italy to fight, German-American troops often ended up in the Pacific Theater. This also exposed those troops to significantly less of the demonization reserved for the enemy in those respective theaters, and reduced the likelihood of blue on blue engagements. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2017, 12:13:18 am »
@Smokin Joe

The chain of command thing is set up to exactly stop or avoid what this judge thinks they can do. Any judge thinking they can do this needs their professional ass handed to them.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2017, 12:13:32 am »
Anyone out there know why Japanese-Americans were put in camps during WWII?

Because an idiot (whose administration was riddled with Stalin's spies) was President.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

[just click it through again at wiki. The ghost of Engineer Montgomery Scott is drinking on the job with my internet links tonight it seems.]


The 442nd Regimental Combat Team is an infantry regiment of the United States Army, part of the Army Reserve. The regiment was a fighting unit composed almost entirely of American soldiers of Japanese ancestry who fought in World War II. Most of the families of mainland Japanese Americans were confined to internment camps in the United States interior. Beginning in 1944, the regiment fought primarily in Europe during World War II,[2] in particular Italy, southern France, and Germany.

The 442nd Regiment was the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of American warfare.[3] The 4,000 men who initially made up the unit in April 1943 had to be replaced nearly 2 times. In total, about 14,000 men served, earning 9,486 Purple Hearts. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[4]:201 Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[2] Its motto was "Go for Broke".
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 12:24:26 am by To-Whose-Benefit? »
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2017, 12:41:28 am »
The 41% Suicide Attempt makes the argument.

That compromises Military Readiness, which compromises National Security.
@Smokin Joe

This.

What I am trying to say is that at any time the CINC makes a decision that decision stands. It may be decided, in hindsight (pun intended) that barring admitted freaks from the military was a bad decision. But, IMO, at this time, it is not.

IMO, the world isn't more enlightened, better, and safer than 100 years ago, or 50, 0r 25. Just the opposite.



She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2017, 01:08:22 am »
@Smokin Joe

The chain of command thing is set up to exactly stop or avoid what this judge thinks they can do. Any judge thinking they can do this needs their professional ass handed to them.
I completely agree.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2017, 01:14:07 am »
@Smokin Joe

This.

What I am trying to say is that at any time the CINC makes a decision that decision stands. It may be decided, in hindsight (pun intended) that barring admitted freaks from the military was a bad decision. But, IMO, at this time, it is not.

IMO, the world isn't more enlightened, better, and safer than 100 years ago, or 50, 0r 25. Just the opposite.
Again, Fred, I completely agree. I was just trying to get @Jazzhead to see why there is a separate judiciary for the Military, and why the chain of command excluded civilian judges from the mix.

The world is more dangerous than ever.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2017, 12:12:19 pm »
Will you quit with the "whining" bullshit? Your whining about other people simply trying to set the record straight is really getting annoying.

Fact: The Military is under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It is a separate judicial system from the ordinary civilian courts, and was established as such because the entire situation in the Armed Forces is different that it is for civilians. When an order is given in the military, it needs to be followed under all but the most special circumstances, and those usually involving an act which would be a violation of the UCMJ.


Except you're not setting the record straight.  I'm not aware that the Trump administration challenged the lawsuit on grounds of standing.  Believe me, if it could have, it would have.  This is outside the UCMJ, which of course addresses matters of justice within the military.   

How is this a matter for the UCMJ?   The plaintiffs are serving honorably under current military rules.   This is a matter of a change in personnel policy - barring an entire class of citizens from military service - that the plaintiffs allege has no military justification.   I have no expertise and therefore no opinion on that question - but the judge believes their position has merit.   That being the standard, she's requiring the status quo to be maintained pending a ruling on the merits.   That's just plain old fashioned fairness, given that careers at stake.   
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 12:13:02 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2017, 12:20:07 pm »
Except you're not setting the record straight.  I'm not aware that the Trump administration challenged the lawsuit on grounds of standing.  Believe me, if it could have, it would have.  This is outside the UCMJ, which of course addresses matters of justice within the military.   

How is this a matter for the UCMJ?   The plaintiffs are serving honorably under current military rules.   This is a matter of a change in personnel policy - barring an entire class of citizens from military service - that the plaintiffs allege has no military justification.   I have no expertise and therefore no opinion on that question - but the judge believes their position has merit.   That being the standard, she's requiring the status quo to be maintained pending a ruling on the merits.   That's just plain old fashioned fairness, given that careers at stake.
It's the Military. It isn't there to be "fair". It exists to project policy and protect our shores by being effective at breaking things and killing people. If the Commander in Chief issues an order, that travels down the chain of command. The military will deal with it, but that judge is NOT in that chain of command.

Why challenge a court completely out of its jurisdiction at all? Is the court going to rule whether it has the jurisdiction to rule on something it has no jurisdiction over in the first place?

The ruling is illegitimate and the judge should have dismissed the suit for lack of jurisdiction.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2017, 12:46:53 pm »

The ruling is illegitimate and the judge should have dismissed the suit for lack of jurisdiction.

So says you.  But you don't know what you're talking about.   The job of asking the court to dismiss a suit for lack of jurisdiction or standing is up to the defendant.    Why didn't the Trump administration do so?  Because it knows something that you do not - the federal court in fact does have jurisdiction over the matter.   This has nothing to do with the UCMJ - as I noted above,  what aspect of the UCMJ have these soldiers violated?

I understand you do not agree with the ruling.   But that does not mean the ruling is illegitimate.  It is, in fact, a perfectly common ruling,  intended to preserve the positions of the parties until the lawsuit is addressed on the merits. 

You may despise these folks (as for me,  I simply don't understand them, but there are lots of things in this world I don't understand),  but the fact remains that these soldiers were allowed to serve openly as transgenders under prior rules, they are doing so honorably, and a change in policy will destroy their careers.   Now the ultimate disposition may well be that the change is militarily justified and is lawful.   But until that is decided,  why throw these soldiers' careers off a cliff?   For what?     
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 12:47:24 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2017, 01:52:33 pm »
So says you.  But you don't know what you're talking about.   The job of asking the court to dismiss a suit for lack of jurisdiction or standing is up to the defendant.    Why didn't the Trump administration do so?  Because it knows something that you do not - the federal court in fact does have jurisdiction over the matter.   This has nothing to do with the UCMJ - as I noted above,  what aspect of the UCMJ have these soldiers violated?

I understand you do not agree with the ruling.   But that does not mean the ruling is illegitimate.  It is, in fact, a perfectly common ruling,  intended to preserve the positions of the parties until the lawsuit is addressed on the merits. 

You may despise these folks (as for me,  I simply don't understand them, but there are lots of things in this world I don't understand),  but the fact remains that these soldiers were allowed to serve openly as transgenders under prior rules, they are doing so honorably, and a change in policy will destroy their careers.   Now the ultimate disposition may well be that the change is militarily justified and is lawful.   But until that is decided,  why throw these soldiers' careers off a cliff?   For what?   
But I do know what I am talking about.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/military
Quote
Military law consists of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and other statutory provisions for the government of persons in the Armed Forces to which may be added the unwritten common law of the usage and custom of military service as well as regulations and authorized by the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces (See 10 U.S.C. § 121). It is a part of our body of law as a whole, and is fully recognized by civil courts; it is in force in time of peace as well as in time of war. All persons serving in the Armed Forces of the United States are subject to military law at all times.

The judge has no standing, the court has no standing, yet you would have the named defendant petition a court with no standing to rule on the court having no standing? That's such tight circular reasoning it spins on its axis.

If a judge in Jamaica had ruled against The Commander In Chief of US Forces in this case, would the POTUS have to go hat-in-hand to Jamaica for a ruling on standing? Hell, no. The judge is out of line, this is a matter for the chain of command and if necessary, the UCMJ and a Military review, not the civilian courts. Establishing this sort of precedent permitting the civilian court to interfere with the lawful orders of commanding officers in the Military (and, recall, if you will, that the POTUS is also CinC), is a move that will result in the military conquest of this country by foreign powers, because agents of those powers need only bring suit against enough things to render our military ineffective. This isn't some candy-assed BS, we're talking National Defense, here. The order permitting this nonsense came down the same chain of command, it can be rescinded the same way.
As far as careers getting wrecked, I'd suggest those  who can't cope with their own genetics have other career wrecking problems. This is the US military, not some sewing circle.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2017, 02:01:13 pm »
So says you.  But you don't know what you're talking about.   The job of asking the court to dismiss a suit for lack of jurisdiction or standing is up to the defendant.    Why didn't the Trump administration do so?  Because it knows something that you do not - the federal court in fact does have jurisdiction over the matter.   This has nothing to do with the UCMJ - as I noted above,  what aspect of the UCMJ have these soldiers violated?

I understand you do not agree with the ruling.   But that does not mean the ruling is illegitimate.  It is, in fact, a perfectly common ruling,  intended to preserve the positions of the parties until the lawsuit is addressed on the merits. 

You may despise these folks (as for me,  I simply don't understand them, but there are lots of things in this world I don't understand),  but the fact remains that these soldiers were allowed to serve openly as transgenders under prior rules, they are doing so honorably, and a change in policy will destroy their careers.   Now the ultimate disposition may well be that the change is militarily justified and is lawful.   But until that is decided,  why throw these soldiers' careers off a cliff?   For what?   
You are completely off your rocker.

You are making an argument that a judge has no responsibility to understand whether he is following the law, and has to be asked by somebody for whether he has jurisdiction present.

That is really a stupid argument to make.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2017, 02:12:38 pm »
You are completely off your rocker.

You are making an argument that a judge has no responsibility to understand whether he is following the law, and has to be asked by somebody for whether he has jurisdiction present.

That is really a stupid argument to make.

We have an adversarial system of justice.   There's a plaintiff and a defendant, and it is up to the defendant to raise any procedural claims.   Standing and jurisdiction apparently aren't at issue in this case.   Are you suggesting the administration's lawyers are incompetent?   I'd say the more likely answer is you don't know what you're talking about.   

   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2017, 02:27:30 pm »
We have an adversarial system of justice.   There's a plaintiff and a defendant, and it is up to the defendant to raise any procedural claims.   Standing and jurisdiction apparently aren't at issue in this case.   Are you suggesting the administration's lawyers are incompetent?   I'd say the more likely answer is you don't know what you're talking about.   

 
Of necessity, the Military operates under a separate judicial system. Plain and simple.
I cited the USC which gives the president the authority, and the UCMJ applies.

Jurisdiction is the seminal issue. The judge has none. The court has no business tinkering with the lawful orders of the Commander in Chief of the Armed forces. As I have already stated, such a precedent would cripple any ability to defend this nation, and if our enemies didn't die laughing, they'd overrun us so fast you wouldn't know what hit you.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2017, 02:40:37 pm »
Jurisdiction is the seminal issue. The judge has none.

I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that the Administration's lawyers know more about the jurisdictional issue than you do.   

How is the UCMJ implicated if these soldiers are serving honorably?   The issue is whether the President has the authority to exclude an entire class of citizens from military service for reasons (allegedly) unrelated to military necessity or national security. 

You call them freaks; others call them soldiers.   

Could in your view the President arbitrarily exclude Jewish citizens from military service?     
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2017, 02:47:40 pm »
I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that the Administration's lawyers know more about the jurisdictional issue than you do.   

How is the UCMJ implicated if these soldiers are serving honorably?   The issue is whether the President has the authority to exclude an entire class of citizens from military service for reasons (allegedly) unrelated to military necessity or national security. 

You call them freaks; others call them soldiers.   

Could in your view the President arbitrarily exclude Jewish citizens from military service?   

Wilson did something similar to that. It took an executive order, not a judge, to undo it.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2017, 02:50:32 pm »
I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that the Administration's lawyers know more about the jurisdictional issue than you do.   

How is the UCMJ implicated if these soldiers are serving honorably?   The issue is whether the President has the authority to exclude an entire class of citizens from military service for reasons (allegedly) unrelated to military necessity or national security. 

You call them freaks; others call them soldiers.   

Could in your view the President arbitrarily exclude Jewish citizens from military service?   
No, YOU called them freaks, just now. I did not, and I challenge you to quit spreading lies or cite where I called these people freaks.

THIS IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY. We cannot have civilian courts pissing around with the lawful orders of the Commander in Chief or the chain of command. That is why the Military has a separate judicial system. (Also why terror suspects were subject to military tribunals, to keep the civilian courts out of it).

Again, if every time some ambulance chaser wants to bring suit the fate of our nation's defense is tied up in the civilian courts, we're done. Better learn Mandarin or Russian--or both, maybe even Farsi, because we're going to need it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 02:51:08 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Directive on Transgender Troops
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2017, 03:02:39 pm »
No, YOU called them freaks, just now. I did not, and I challenge you to quit spreading lies or cite where I called these people freaks.


My apologies, SJ;  I thought you had used that term; my quick perusal shows I was mistaken;  you did describe them as folks "who cannot cope with their own genetics".   

They are,  however,  serving honorably and face the wreckage of their careers.   
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