Americans aren’t buying the GOP's tax plan

[KingsX]

@KingsX

Now Paul Ryan says the GOP is considering an added bracket that would make it easier to maintain high tax rates on upper earners.  Does that make you feel better?  Ease your envy a little bit?

No

You keep asking me similar questions and I keep responding with similar responses that you keep ignoring.

My complaint is the fact that many  lower and middle income taxpayers will have their taxes INCREASED under the GOP so-called "tax cut"  plan.

The GOP's proposed standard deduction for every one [$12,000 single and $24,000 married] is NOT ENOUGH to offset the GOP proposed elimination of the current different standard deductions and personal exemptions and the GOP's increase in the lowest tax rate [from 10 to 12%.]  Also, the GOP plan does not compensate for other current deductions they plan to eliminate.

The reason why the GOP is increasing taxes on lower and middle income taxpayers is to save money so they can reduce taxes on the rich.

I have no problem reducing taxes on the rich and businesses... but not at the expense of raising taxes on low and middle income taxpayers.

[Cyber Liberty]

I have no problem reducing taxes on the rich and businesses... but not at the expense of raising taxes on low and middle income taxpayers.

Then you should strike the following words from your vocabulary:  "Tax cuts for the rich."  But you won't, because the words from your post above are untrue.  You are highly vocal about keeping taxes on high earners high, and you've shown no indication you think reducing them would have any impact on your own tax liability.

I noticed you are continuing to ignore my questions, a trend I expect to continue because truthful answers (or lies, either) would undermine you, and show us your envy of people who have earned more than you in stark relief.  I'd "Ignore" you but I find you one of the most entertaining posters to come on here in a long time.

[KingsX]

Then you should strike the following words from your vocabulary:  "Tax cuts for the rich." 

That is exactly what the GOP plan would do... give tax cuts to the rich while increasing taxes on lower incomes.

I have explained it in detail until the cows come home.  What part of that do you not understand ??

Populist Trump said he wanted to cut taxes for everyone and that's okay with me.  But that is NOT the GOP plan.   In the GOP plan,  they try to save money by eliminating deductions and exemptions and by doing so they increase taxes on lower and middle income people.  The GOP baits and switches by replacing some exemptions/deductions they eliminate with inferior substitutes which still increases taxes on those least able to afford it.   Why does the GOP bother with all this byzantine bait and switch... because they are trying to hide the fact that they are trying to save money on the backs of lower and middle incomes so they can give tax cuts to the rich.   It is the GOP who has initiated class warfare with their tax plan fiasco.

THIS is the truth... this is my answer to the same questions I keep being asked.  I can't help it if for some reason posters here are incapable of understanding it.

[Frank Cannon]

No

You keep asking me similar questions and I keep responding with similar responses that you keep ignoring.

My complaint is the fact that many  lower and middle income taxpayers will have their taxes INCREASED under the GOP so-called "tax cut"  plan.

The GOP's proposed standard deduction for every one [$12,000 single and $24,000 married] is NOT ENOUGH to offset the GOP proposed elimination of the current different standard deductions and personal exemptions and the GOP's increase in the lowest tax rate [from 10 to 12%.]  Also, the GOP plan does not compensate for other current deductions they plan to eliminate.

The reason why the GOP is increasing taxes on lower and middle income taxpayers is to save money so they can reduce taxes on the rich.

I have no problem reducing taxes on the rich and businesses... but not at the expense of raising taxes on low and middle income taxpayers.

[corbe]

You are the one who posts personal insults like a Kremlin troll.

    @KingsX, my Friend, we are obviously a pretty tight community here that USUALLY always welcomes newcomers and give them the benefit of the doubt for awhile as we seek out the middle ground and unlike sites like Trumpbart or TOS we have long ago sniffed out any Russian Trolls and disposed of them, so please refrain from using that example as a characterization of Briefers.

[Cyber Liberty]

That is exactly what the GOP plan would do... give tax cuts to the rich while increasing taxes on lower incomes.

I have explained it in detail until the cows come home.  What part of that do you not understand ??

Populist Trump said he wanted to cut taxes for everyone and that's okay with me.  But that is NOT the GOP plan.   In the GOP plan,  they try to save money by eliminating deductions and exemptions and by doing so they increase taxes on lower and middle income people.  The GOP baits and switches by replacing some exemptions/deductions they eliminate with inferior substitutes which still increases taxes on those least able to afford it.   Why does the GOP bother with all this byzantine bait and switch... because they are trying to hide the fact that they are trying to save money on the backs of lower and middle incomes so they can give tax cuts to the rich.   It is the GOP who has initiated class warfare with their tax plan fiasco.

THIS is the truth... this is my answer to the same questions I keep being asked.  I can't help it if for some reason posters here are incapable of understanding it.

So many words for the salad...and not one in answer to the questions I asked.  This is why you are not being taken seriously, you've made yourself a cartoon.  Don't get mad at Briefers for pointing it out.

[KingsX]

    @KingsX, my Friend, we are obviously a pretty tight community here that USUALLY always welcomes newcomers and give them the benefit of the doubt for awhile as we seek out the middle ground and unlike sites like Trumpbart or TOS we have long ago sniffed out any Russian Trolls and disposed of them, so please refrain from using that example as a characterization of Briefers.

I doubt that... it appears I've outed a whole nest of them.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I have posted the truth. 

and that is a lie.

You have yet to provide the source for your claim that the GOP has a $1.5 trillion tax cut for the rich.

[Cyber Liberty]

I doubt that... it appears I've outed a whole nest of them.

It's the opposite of the old card-shark's rule.  If you're in a poker game and you can't spot the mark, you're the mark.

It sort of the opposite with trolls.  If everybody else looks like a troll, then the odds are, it's you who's the troll.

[KingsX]

I have a question for anyone who is knowledgeable enough to answer.

WHY is the GOP still touting the same $12,000 single / $24,000 married standard deductions they first proposed in their June 2016 tax plan,  "Blueprint - A Better Way" ??

The 2016 IRS standard deductions and personal exemptions increased in 2017 and will increase again in 2018 because of inflation. 

Yet the GOP continues with their same 2016 figures.

[Applewood]

Ok, I'm going to ask this again.  Do we have actual tax reform legislation on paper, or is all this just what Trump, the party leaders, the media and guessers on social media are telling us it will be?

I don't want to speculate on any of this until I see something in writing.  I can't rely on anyone else to tell me what this "reform" will be.  I want to see it myself. 

The Republicans had better be forthcoming with the actual legislation.  I don't want another Nancy Pelosi we have to pass it first to know what's in it BS.

[Snarknado]

The one thing we can be sure of is the shrieks of outrage when none of the cuts go to the 47% who are already paying zero income tax...

[KingsX]

Ok, I'm going to ask this again.  Do we have actual tax reform legislation on paper, or is all this just what Trump, the party leaders, the media and guessers on social media are telling us it will be?

I don't want to speculate on any of this until I see something in writing.  I can't rely on anyone else to tell me what this "reform" will be.  I want to see it myself. 

The Republicans had better be forthcoming with the actual legislation.  I don't want another Nancy Pelosi we have to pass it first to know what's in it BS.

The GOP released their vision of tax reform in June 2016 called, "Blueprint -A Better Way."
Much of what they have told us will be in their bill comes from that June 2016 plan.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3XBs6H0rpTgJ:https://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-Tax-PolicyPaper.pdf%2Bbetter+way+blueprint&hl=en&gbv=1&ct=clnk


The GOP released an outline a "framework" of their pending tax bill weeks ago.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/27/unified-framework-fixing-our-broken-tax-code

https://fairandsimple.gop/

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:L4WSL4AdZD8J:https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Documents/Tax-Framework.pdf%2Bgop+tax+framework&hl=en&gbv=1&ct=clnk


The GOP says they will unveil their actual bill this week [maybe Wednesday.]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/30/politics/tax-reform-preview-republican-plan/index.html


The whole thing is still in flux... which is why it's important to have tax debate now.

[Applewood]

@KingsX

Thank you for all the cites (doing my homework for me).  I think I read some of these previously, but as I said, I want to see the actual bill before deciding what's good or bad about it.  I'll bet the bill is already undergoing drafts and redrafts and probably will continue to do so until it's really introduced. 

However, I must disagree with your statement that we should debate anything now.  There really isn't anything to debate other than rumors, rhetoric from both parties and a whole bunch of Republicans making promises.  As we have seen with the Obamacare repeal especially, those Republican promises aren't worth jack.  If they lied to us about Obamacare repeal, I would expect them to lie about the tax reform proposal too. 

So when I see the actual bill, then I can tell whether I like it or not.  I may then have to tell my idiot Dem congressman to vote for or against it. Not that he will really listen to me, but griping among ourselves will have even less of a chance of accomplishing anything than calling our congresspersons and senators.

[KingsX]

This is interesting... 

Apparently,  Justin Muzinich who is one of the major players for Trump's tax plan... was previously writing tax policy for Jeb Bush.


The Little-Known Pragmatist Who Is Shaping the Trump Tax Cuts

" On Capitol Hill, Mr. Muzinich is often paired with Mr. Cohn’s top deputy, Shahira Knight, to convey the administration’s views in big tax meetings. He speaks almost daily with Mr. Mnuchin and, according to congressional aides, it is apparent that he has the authority to speak on behalf of the secretary.

“Justin’s leadership and expertise has been essential in advancing tax reform, which has been our administration’s top domestic priority,” Mr. Mnuchin said in a statement.

Mr. Muzinich, who holds an M.B.A. from Harvard and a law degree from Yale, was relatively unknown in tax policy circles before he was plucked from Wall Street to join the Treasury Department. His most notable prior experience in the world of policy came while working on the campaign of one of Mr. Trump’s arch rivals: Jeb Bush..... Mr. Muzinich was busy overseeing a team that cranked out detailed proposals for Mr. Bush on taxes, education and health care. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/28/us/politics/the-little-known-pragmatist-who-is-shaping-the-trump-tax-cuts.html


Congratulations, Deplorables -- You're Getting Jeb Bush's Tax Plan

" In fact, Muzinich put together a tax plan for Jeb's campaign, and that plan bears a striking resemblance to the Trump/GOP plan:

One of the earliest iterations of the tax framework unveiled by Mr. Trump and congressional Republicans last month was the one that Mr. Muzinich drafted for Mr. Bush in 2015. Like the current plan, that one would have collapsed the personal income tax brackets from seven to three and lowered the rates. It would have doubled the standard deduction, reduced the corporate tax rate to 20 percent from 35 percent, and switched the United States to a “territorial” tax system, as the current plan would also do. "

http://crooksandliars.com/2017/10/congratulations-deplorables-youre-getting

[KingsX]

This is also interesting...

Since Justin Muzinich went to Yale,  I was curious if he was Skull and Bones like the Bushes.

I didn't find any such info on Muzinich... but I did find out that Steve Mnuchin is Skull and Bones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Skull_and_Bones_members

[txradioguy]

This is also interesting...

Since Justin Muzinich went to Yale,  I was curious if he was Skull and Bones like the Bushes.

I didn't find any such info on Muzinich... but I did find out that Steve Mnuchin is Skull and Bones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Skull_and_Bones_members

[Sanguine]

This is interesting... 

Apparently,  Justin Muzinich who is one of the major players for Trump's tax plan... was previously writing tax policy for Jeb Bush.


The Little-Known Pragmatist Who Is Shaping the Trump Tax Cuts

" On Capitol Hill, Mr. Muzinich is often paired with Mr. Cohn’s top deputy, Shahira Knight, to convey the administration’s views in big tax meetings. He speaks almost daily with Mr. Mnuchin and, according to congressional aides, it is apparent that he has the authority to speak on behalf of the secretary.

“Justin’s leadership and expertise has been essential in advancing tax reform, which has been our administration’s top domestic priority,” Mr. Mnuchin said in a statement.

Mr. Muzinich, who holds an M.B.A. from Harvard and a law degree from Yale, was relatively unknown in tax policy circles before he was plucked from Wall Street to join the Treasury Department. His most notable prior experience in the world of policy came while working on the campaign of one of Mr. Trump’s arch rivals: Jeb Bush..... Mr. Muzinich was busy overseeing a team that cranked out detailed proposals for Mr. Bush on taxes, education and health care. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/28/us/politics/the-little-known-pragmatist-who-is-shaping-the-trump-tax-cuts.html


Congratulations, Deplorables -- You're Getting Jeb Bush's Tax Plan

" In fact, Muzinich put together a tax plan for Jeb's campaign, and that plan bears a striking resemblance to the Trump/GOP plan:

One of the earliest iterations of the tax framework unveiled by Mr. Trump and congressional Republicans last month was the one that Mr. Muzinich drafted for Mr. Bush in 2015. Like the current plan, that one would have collapsed the personal income tax brackets from seven to three and lowered the rates. It would have doubled the standard deduction, reduced the corporate tax rate to 20 percent from 35 percent, and switched the United States to a “territorial” tax system, as the current plan would also do. "

http://crooksandliars.com/2017/10/congratulations-deplorables-youre-getting

That is interesting.

[KingsX]

.

Chained CPI


The bait and switch continues...  the GOP tax plan has morphed again since it was unveiled on Thursday.

Now the "Chained CPI" provision in the tax bill  [a terrible way to figure inflation]  will be effective immediately [instead of 2023.]


House GOP quietly revises tax bill to tax income at higher rates over time

 Nov 4, 2017

" House Republicans on Friday quietly made changes to their far-reaching tax overhaul: Now its tax cuts would be less generous for many Americans.

A day after the GOP unveiled its plan promising middle-class relief, the House's top tax-writer, Rep. Kevin Brady, R-Texas, released a revised version of the bill that would impose a new, lower-inflation "chained CPI" adjustment for tax brackets immediately instead of in 2023. That means more income would be taxed at higher rates over time  and less generous tax cuts for individuals and families.

The change, posted on the website of the Ways and Means Committee, reduces the value of the tax cuts for ordinary Americans by $89 billion over 10 years compared with the legislation released with fanfare Thursday.

As wages rise, middle-class taxpayers would have more of their income taxed at the 25 percent rate instead of at 12 percent, for instance. "

more at link

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-gop-quietly-changes-tax-bill-to-tax-income-at-higher-rates-over-time/




The GOP has also been advocating Chained CPI to figure Medicare's cost of living increases...
which would mean even lower cost of living raises in the future.


Here is Ron Paul quote about the GOP tax plan and Chained CPI :

" The framework also contains a stealth tax increase imposed via the chained consumer price index (chained CPI). Supporters of chained CPI clam the government is currently overstating inflation. The truth is exactly the opposite: government statistics are manipulated to understate inflation.

Chained CPI enhances the government's ability to lie about inflation. One way it does so is by claiming that inflation does not lower our standard of living if we can substitute cheaper goods for goods made unaffordable by inflation. So inflation does not harm you if you cant afford a steak dinner as long as you can still buy a cheeseburger.

Chained CPI allows the government to take maximum advantage of "bracket creep," where individuals are pushed into higher tax brackets not because they are actually earning more money, but because inflation creates the illusion they are wealthier. In fact, by decreasing their purchasing power, inflation makes most people poorer. The inflation tax thus raises taxes on declining incomes. It is hidden and regressive, making it the most insidious of all taxes. "

more at  link

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2017/october/09/will-tax-reform-increase-or-limit-liberty/


.

[Sanguine]

Yes, it's looking like a bait-and-switch tax plan at this point.

[Cyber Liberty]

Chained CPI is a cheat, to deny the existence of inflation.  It allows bureaucrats to arbitrarily make the "inflation" rate any number they want to pull out of their ass.

[DB]

Chained CPI is a cheat, to deny the existence of inflation.  It allows bureaucrats to arbitrarily make the "inflation" rate any number they want to pull out of their ass.

With all the private and government debt at artificially low interest rates government is going to have to bend time and space to keep historical long term rates from ever returning. Obama and congress's doubling of the national debt and millions of adjustable rate mortgages will consume everything if they don't. Obama buried the actual inflation rate for his entire two terms so smoke and mirrors has to continue to keep the party going. Until it can go no more...

[Sanguine]

With all the private and government debt at artificially low interest rates government is going to have to bend time and space to keep historical long term rates from ever returning. Obama and congress's doubling of the national debt and millions of adjustable rate mortgages will consume everything if they don't. Obama buried the actual inflation rate for his entire two terms so smoke and mirrors has to continue to keep the party going. Until it can go no more...

Sooner or later the champagne runs out.