Author Topic: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative  (Read 22477 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #225 on: October 25, 2017, 08:27:02 pm »
I'd agree if the tablet only said "thou shalt not steal".   But what about the commandment that one acknowledge the one true God?   Why should a government - in a court of law no less - appear to endorse such an explicitly religious command?   
Government endorses many religious commandments in its secular law, but it does not have any law establishing a religion, nor does the presence of a monument to one of the most universally recognized fundamental sets of laws in Western Civilization make that establishment, especially as those values are shared among sects and religions.
 
That whole "an eye for an eye" thing might not play well with our judicial system.

If it only said "Thou shalt not steal", then Murder and Perjury, for just a couple, would be hunky dory?

I think people can recognize that there is a set of values which are universally accepted as "good", regardless of whether a religion codified them in its dogma.
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #226 on: October 25, 2017, 08:43:00 pm »
Yes, when such free exercise harms or violates the rights of others.  Why should playing the religion card give you carte blanche to harm others?   


You do realize that when the Constitution was ratified,  the vast majority of states were still slave states?   


Did it not occur to you that the founders didn't give a sh*t about harming "others"?     


Why are you trying to turn these people into "Social Justice Warriors"?    They were not.   They didn't care if people were pissed at them for forcing the dominant religion on them.   They just didn't care.   This concern for the feelings of "others"  is a modern invention. 



You talk about things in the way you wish them to be.   I am talking about things in the way they were. 





And why shouldn't I speak out as loudly as I can regarding bigotry?   Why is bigotry defensible because it bears the imprimatur of your religion?   


Why is bigotry offensive?  Where did you get this notion?  Bigotry is  certainly common practice in most of the world,  so why do you have this idea that bigotry is wrong?   


Why are you trying to shove this Christian idea down our throats?    Why are you trying to force your religion on us?   

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— Lord Melbourne —

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #227 on: October 25, 2017, 08:53:22 pm »
I'm getting pretty sick of this "expressions of faith is harming others" bullshit.  Not wanting to bake a frickin' cake for a wedding isn't "harming somebody," but cutting off their heads for believing in a different god sure is.  Trivializing the second by conflating it with the first is probably what pisses me off the most about this entire conversation.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #228 on: October 25, 2017, 08:59:16 pm »
I'm getting pretty sick of this "expressions of faith is harming others" bullshit.  Not wanting to bake a frickin' cake for a wedding isn't "harming somebody," but cutting off their heads for believing in a different god sure is.  Trivializing the second by conflating it with the first is probably what pisses me off the most about this entire conversation.

Ooooh, well said, Cyber!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #229 on: October 25, 2017, 09:01:43 pm »

Jazzhead will not read that or agree with such an irrefutable post of logic.

Because he has a Secular-Humanist Socialist-Universalist agenda to push upon the rest of us.

And he sees his tool to impose both "law" by color and punishment via the courts - like all the rest of the Leftists that share the same talking points and agenda that he spews on this board.

TRUTH spoken to kings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xMxkNROto

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #230 on: October 25, 2017, 10:13:26 pm »
I'm getting pretty sick of this "expressions of faith is harming others" bullshit.  Not wanting to bake a frickin' cake for a wedding isn't "harming somebody," but cutting off their heads for believing in a different god sure is.  Trivializing the second by conflating it with the first is probably what pisses me off the most about this entire conversation.
Good job.  Not baking a cake for some queer folks does not certainly rise to the same level as throwing those same folks off a rooftop, does it?

Perspective means a lot.  We have lost our commonsense as we listen to the madness around us.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline INVAR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #231 on: October 25, 2017, 11:28:16 pm »
Good job.  Not baking a cake for some queer folks does not certainly rise to the same level as throwing those same folks off a rooftop, does it?

People like Jazzhead tell us that it is "worse" because that kind of stuff only happens 'over there' and 'not here' because of religious tyrants he equates us to be.  His underlying message in just about every thread touching on foundational issues is that biblical Christianity is a far worse tyranny and threat to people, than any other belief system on the planet.   He lofts his own self-crafted  idea of what religion should be and pastes Jesus' Name on it, the same way he spews Liberal Socialism and slaps the label of 'Conservatism' on it.

His advocacy of punishment being inflicted by the courts and government at his behest, and confirmation of that view on this thread against "bigotry" illustrates the fact that the greatest threat to liberty is from the kind of crap Jazzhead advocates on this board.

Perspective means a lot.  We have lost our commonsense as we listen to the madness around us.

Jazzhead thinks he has an audience here that he can influence and persuade like the other forums he haunts.  He be mistaken.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Hoodat

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #232 on: October 26, 2017, 01:21:12 am »

Quote from: Hoodat
I've  read it.  The 'Separation of Church and State' crowd LOST the case.  I am amazed at you level of dishonesty in citing it as supporting your side.

Oh, bullshit.

Wow, do you seriously lack the integrity to acknowledge that Everson lost?  If so, then you have no business posting here.  Without 'truth', words are meaningless.


But thanks for reading the case.   What did you think of the case's description of the historical support for the wall of separation?

It was a history that pre-dated the formation of the Constitution by almost two centuries.  And it ignored the more pertinent history - almost two centuries of Constitutional law where the First Amendment was taken as it was written.  "Congress shall make no law . . . "  Clear.  Concise.  To the point.

Contrary to what you posted earlier, Amendment I secures no rights.  Instead, it places a limit on the power of the federal legislature to take those rights away.  The rights in question are inalienable - given to us by our Creator, whether you believe in Him or not.

But more to the point, the court decision (which you finally got around to reading for the first time) was decided in favor of the defendant.  In other words, the Court found that it did not violate the Establishment Clause for the State of New Jersey to reimburse parents the cost of busing their kids to Catholic schools.


Both the majority and the minority in Everson agreed on the meaning of the Establishment Clause, although they differed on its application to the facts at hand.

They did the same thing with Dred Scot and Plessy.  Both courts ignored the Constitution in rendering their decisions.  Perhaps you would like to argue that segregation is Constitutional simply because the Supreme Court rendered it so?  That's what you are doing here with the federal establishment of secular humanism.


But the bottom line is that the historical record shows that the Establishment Clause was a reaction not to religious piety but religious tyranny.

Yet it is you that is advocating using the courts to uphold religious tyranny in the form of secular humanism to be forced upon the rest of us.  Cobb County, Georgia can't even put a note in a text book saying that evolution is just a theory without having the ACLU petitioning the courts to deny the county that right simply because it doesn't conform to their own government-sponsored religion.

Tyranny?  You are the one advocating tyranny here.  The rest of us just want to be left alone to choose our own local and state governments as we see fit, under the Constitution of the United States of America which grants no power to the federal government to force secular humanism on the rest of us.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #233 on: October 26, 2017, 01:34:47 am »
Secular humanism isn't a religion.   So now you want the flippin' Constitution to be a "living document" that applies the Establishment Clause to secular humanism?

Today's breed of internet  "conservatives" are the laziest intellectually I've ever seen.   *****rollingeyes*****
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #234 on: October 26, 2017, 01:38:23 am »
Funny thing, INVAR, that you don't quote Jefferson on the subject of religion.

Here's what Jefferson wrote in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom:


Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
http://www.vahistorical.org/collections-and-resources/virginia-history-explorer/thomas-jefferson

This directly contrasts your opinion of Moore.  Jefferson is very clear.  All men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no way diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Perhaps if you bothered to read the Free Exercise, you would recognize the balance between the two - the same balance that provided the very foundation for our Constitution in its separation of powers.  Not that you actually support it, but just maybe so you could recognize it.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #235 on: October 26, 2017, 01:43:31 am »
Secular humanism isn't a religion.

By that same standard, neither is Christianity.


Secular humanism isn't a religion.   So now you want the flippin' Constitution to be a "living document" that applies the Establishment Clause to secular humanism?

No.  I want the Establishment to be applied to Congress, just like it was written 230 years ago.


Today's breed of internet  "conservatives" are the laziest intellectually I've ever seen.   *****rollingeyes*****

Keep in mind that I am not the one here peddling a losing Supreme Court case.  Perhaps if you weren't so intellectually lazy, you could have avoided repeating that same mistake for the 16th time.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #236 on: October 26, 2017, 01:44:39 am »
Here's what Jefferson wrote in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom:


Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
http://www.vahistorical.org/collections-and-resources/virginia-history-explorer/thomas-jefferson

This directly contrasts your opinion of Moore.  Jefferson is very clear.  All men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no way diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Perhaps if you bothered to read the Free Exercise, you would recognize the balance between the two - the same balance that provided the very foundation for our Constitution in its separation of powers.  Not that you actually support it, but just maybe so you could recognize it.

Hoodat, the ten pages of this thread have been about the Establishment clause of the First Amendment.  Not the Free Exercise clause.   I have no beef with you about the Free Exercise clause.

And you're right - there is a relationship between the two clauses.   No government involvement in religion.  Don't suppress it.  Don't endorse it.  Don't subsidize it.   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 01:45:32 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #237 on: October 26, 2017, 01:54:20 am »
Hoodat, the ten pages of this thread have been about the Establishment clause of the First Amendment.  Not the Free Exercise clause.   I have no beef with you about the Free Exercise clause.


Except when it comes to baking cakes or enacting marriage laws.  Or even cramming the religion of secular humanism down our throats.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 01:55:52 am by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline roamer_1

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #238 on: October 26, 2017, 02:01:04 am »
Secular humanism isn't a religion.   

SCOTUS: 1961 Torkoso v. Watkins.

It's the supreme law of the land, after all.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 02:01:40 am by roamer_1 »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #239 on: October 26, 2017, 02:08:13 am »
SCOTUS: 1961 Torkoso v. Watkins.

It's the supreme law of the land, after all.

Well done, sir.  You did your research.   Quite a contrast from the intellectual laziness of a certain poster.  And yes, if the Supreme Court says so.  (Prepare for moving goal posts ahead)
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #240 on: October 26, 2017, 07:01:27 am »
Secular humanism isn't a religion.   So now you want the flippin' Constitution to be a "living document" that applies the Establishment Clause to secular humanism?

Today's breed of internet  "conservatives" are the laziest intellectually I've ever seen.   *****rollingeyes*****
Dogmatic opposition to religion takes on a religious quality all its own.

No. I don't want Congress to establish any religion nor religious test for public office. We went through that with Cromwell, and that was more than enough. Never again. But the same people who often came here to escape religious persecution wanted to guarantee they would be able to worship as they see fit, and the secular humanists and so-called atheists are trying to establish their particular brand of nihilism as a religious substitute. No thanks. It's a great and vast country and they are free to keep walking if they don't want to join in.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #241 on: October 26, 2017, 12:13:27 pm »
. But the same people who often came here to escape religious persecution wanted to guarantee they would be able to worship as they see fit, and the secular humanists and so-called atheists are trying to establish their particular brand of nihilism as a religious substitute. No thanks. It's a great and vast country and they are free to keep walking if they don't want to join in.

No disagreement there,  although I don't see much real threat to the ability of Christians to "worship as they see fit".   I've seen issues with Muslims from time to time;  local authorities have sometimes made them jump through hoops to build a mosque.   But I have no beef with you about the importance and broad scope of the free exercise clause.   And while the issue of whether, say, a menorah or crèche can be displayed on public property is interesting, it in no way inhibits the ability of folks of any faith to "worship as they see fit".    Folks have the right to practice their faith, not to demand that government subsidize or endorse it.

Most of the free exercise issues really boil down to the same basic thing -  can the practice of faith be restricted or proscribed by laws of general application?    The law prohibits the consumption of marijuana; but can I claim an exemption from the law because I smoke weed as part of a religious ritual?    It's the same with the Colorado baker - laws against discrimination in public accommodations apply to all, and aren't intended to discriminate against the religious.  But is the baker entitled to an exemption if the reason for discrimination is claimed to be religious?    We've argued about this ad infinitum,  but the legal issue is really just this basic -  in what circumstances can one skirt laws that apply to everybody by pointing to one's religion?         
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #242 on: October 26, 2017, 12:18:33 pm »
SCOTUS: 1961 Torkoso v. Watkins.

It's the supreme law of the land, after all.

Had to look that one up (which isn't as easy as it could be if you didn't misspell the name of the case.  It's "Torcaso").   Torcaso holds that the government cannot impose a religious test for public office.   The Constitution of the State of Maryland had required holders of public offices, including notary publics,  to affirm a belief in God.   The SCOTUS found it, unsurprisingly, to be unconstitutional.   As to the mystery of what you're getting at,  according to Wikipedia:

Quote
It has occasionally been argued that in Torcaso v. Watkins the Supreme Court "found" secular humanism to be a religion. This assertion is based on a reference, by Justice Black in footnote number 11 of the Court's finding, to court cases where organized groups of self-identified humanists, or ethicists, meeting on a regular basis to share and celebrate their beliefs, have been granted religious-based tax exemptions.

Justice Black's use of the term "secular humanism" in his footnote has been seized upon by some religious groups, such as those supporting causes such as teaching creationism in schools, as a "finding" that any secular or non-observable evolution-based activity is, in fact, religion.

That's called dicta.   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:25:39 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #243 on: October 26, 2017, 01:04:11 pm »
No disagreement there,  although I don't see much real threat to the ability of Christians to "worship as they see fit". 
So you see a threat?  what is it?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline txradioguy

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #244 on: October 26, 2017, 01:05:41 pm »
Had to look that one up (which isn't as easy as it could be if you didn't misspell the name of the case.  It's "Torcaso").   Torcaso holds that the government cannot impose a religious test for public office.   The Constitution of the State of Maryland had required holders of public offices, including notary publics,  to affirm a belief in God.   The SCOTUS found it, unsurprisingly, to be unconstitutional.   As to the mystery of what you're getting at,  according to Wikipedia:

That's called dicta.


The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #245 on: October 26, 2017, 01:10:59 pm »
Huh?   That the Court found Maryland's religious test unconstitutional strikes me as a no-brainer.   Are you suggesting I disagree with the case?   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 01:12:45 pm by Jazzhead »
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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #246 on: October 26, 2017, 01:12:25 pm »
I see the lectures started early today.  Nobody told me I have an Eight-O'clock.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #247 on: October 26, 2017, 01:15:24 pm »
I see the lectures started early today.  Nobody told me I have an Eight-O'clock.

@Cyber Liberty

He likes to get his lectures in early when there is no one around to challenge him.

It's an ego thing.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #248 on: October 26, 2017, 01:15:32 pm »
I see the lectures started early today.  Nobody told me I have an Eight-O'clock.

I hate the eight o'clock lectures.  I always doze off when they drone on.

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #249 on: October 26, 2017, 01:21:47 pm »
I hate the eight o'clock lectures.  I always doze off when they drone on.

I think the dumbest thing I ever did was take a Calculus class at 8AM, 5 days a week.  It really cut into my drinking hours.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: