CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative

[Right_in_Virginia]

I'm a conservative - but not a social conservative.   ....

This is, IMO @Jazzhead  the great divide among republicans/conservatives.  Even among the many social conservatives I know there is a split regarding how far to go to legislate morality, even if not done overtly in the name of religion. 

The conversation on this thread is a healthy one for us all.

[Bigun]

Neither can I, in either case.  Thought it was just me.   

Most definitely not just you!  I quit engaging with him months ago because all he knows how to do is argue in circles and doesn't have a single f'n clue about the things he is arguing.

[Sighlass]

This thread reminds me of the MurryMom threads at TOS.... she was the token liberal there that for some reason Jim let stick around.

[Sanguine]

This thread reminds me of the MurryMom threads at TOS.... she was the token liberal there that for some reason Jim let stick around.

Didn't she think she was a conservative too?

[Jazzhead]

Didn't she think she was a conservative too?

Maybe she was!   Social conservatives don't have a monopoly on the term "conservative".   If they did, for example, Barry Goldwater wouldn't have been a conservative.   

[Sanguine]

Maybe she was!   Social conservatives don't have a monopoly on the term "conservative".   If they did, for example, Barry Goldwater wouldn't have been a conservative.

Sorry, Jazz, but I was asking conservatives this question. 

[roamer_1]

Maybe she was!   Social conservatives don't have a monopoly on the term "conservative".   If they did, for example, Barry Goldwater wouldn't have been a conservative.

Most politically oriented SOCONS are Reaganites and quite rightly, as Reagan springs from the Goldwater wing. By definition, Conservatives, full-fledged.

[roamer_1]

Sorry, Jazz, but I was asking conservatives this question.

Oh, SNAP!

 

[Jazzhead]

Most politically oriented SOCONS are Reaganites and quite rightly, as Reagan springs from the Goldwater wing. By definition, Conservatives, full-fledged.

Well, I'm as Reaganite as they come (I voted for him in the 1976 GOP primary - my first vote ever!), and I'm no social conservative.   John Kasich was one of the first Reaganite Congressmen (following him into government in 1982 wave election),  and I doubt he'd call himself a social conservative.   

Social conservatives are a vital part of the GOP coalition, but it consists of many other strands of conservatism and even some [horrors!] centrists.   It is offensive for social conservatives to drum the rest of us out of the movement - I've been voting GOP since before some of the members here were born. 

And finally - let's not forget that the name of this place is the GOPBriefingRoom, not ConservativeBriefingRoom.     

[musiclady]

This thread reminds me of the MurryMom threads at TOS.... she was the token liberal there that for some reason Jim let stick around.

Oh, MurryMom!  Talk about a blast from the past.

Wonder what ever happened to that card carrying leftie?

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Roy Moore mocks the Constitution, and especially the Establishment Clause of the first amendment.   He does not deserve the support of Constitutional conservatives.

Proselytizing once again? @Jazzhead

There are no facts in your statement, just a simple editorial from a simple person who hates conservatives.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

And you think a monument to the Quran would be appropriate in the center of the courthouse?

STRAWMAN.

Nothing exists in this country as you describe.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Well, I'm as Reaganite as they come (I voted for him in the 1976 GOP primary - my first vote ever!)

So do you follow the man when he says “I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born.” ?  http://www.lifenews.com/2013/09/03/15-of-the-greatest-pro-life-quotes-of-all-time/

Then stop the lying that you are for what Ronald Reagan represented.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Sorry, Jazz, but I was asking conservatives this question.

Touche'!

[Jazzhead]

Proselytizing once again? @Jazzhead

There are no facts in your statement, just a simple editorial from a simple person who hates conservatives.

Cut me a break - I don't "hate conservatives".   

Moore defied a court order and was removed from office.  He doesn't respect the rule of law, which he as a judge was sworn to uphold.   A monument to the 10 commandments has no place in a courtroom, IMO. 

[Jazzhead]

So do you follow the man when he says “I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born"

I'm not in favor of abortion.  But I am in favor of the Constitution.   

Then stop the lying that you are for what Ronald Reagan represented.

He was the greatest President of my lifetime.   I know exactly what he represented.   

[INVAR]

No I really mean it - His bias against Judeo-Christianity is on his sleeve, So he rightly claims he is not a social conservative.

He defends FDR judiciary and social programs, so he certainly isn't an original-constructionist or federalist...

He loves big-gov insurance (and other social programs), so that scotches fiscal conservatism...

He does not believe in an unabridged R2KBA - something every Goldwater libertarian and defense conservative would inherently embrace as a first cause...

What other sort of conservatism is left?

The kind of "Conservatism" that is really nothing more than Liberal Marxist Statism that disguises itself as "Conservatism" so more people will willfully accept tyrannical Socialism.

That kind.

[roamer_1]

Well, I'm as Reaganite as they come (I voted for him in the 1976 GOP primary - my first vote ever!), and I'm no social conservative.   John Kasich was one of the first Reaganite Congressmen (following him into government in 1982 wave election),  and I doubt he'd call himself a social conservative. 

Whether that is true or not is incidental. But it was Reagan who invited the social conservatives to the Conservative table (and using the fight against abortion primarily, and the decline of morality generally, as that catapult). It was Reagan who recognized that everything conservatives of every stripe desire is not possible without recognizing the necessary moral constraints provided by the Judeo-Christian ethic - The very thing that social conservatives conserve.

It was Reagan who observed and admitted that no faction should drive Conservatism, as all of Conservatism is interleaved and inter-dependent. THAT is what Reagan espoused. It is no skin off my nose to vote for a fiscal conservative if he is also a social conservative... And a defense conservative, and a civil libertarian. That is the genius of Reagan. That is what ties together the factions of Conservatism and allows the rise of an unstoppable juggernaut.

Not the 'my-turnism' of Republican elite, or the 'under the bus' mentality of the NEOCONS. Conservatism is served when Reagan Conservatives (read full fedged, rock-ribbed, embracing and living by *ALL* Conservative Principles) are elected, because then, everyone is driving the bus.
 

Social conservatives are a vital part of the GOP coalition [...]

No. They are THE vital part of Conservatism... By far and away the largest faction, larger than all the rest combined, and the single largest voting bloc in the nation. They also possess HUGE alternative media sources which none of the other conservatives can offer in the least. They also possesses gigantic personnel resources and can provide monstrous amounts of dedicated boots-on-the-ground, not to mention venues and properties. Their service is due to their Lord foremost, and secondarily, largely, to Conservatism. Any allegiance to the GOP is incidental, or nonexistent.

[...] but it consists of many other strands of conservatism and even some [horrors!] centrists.   It is offensive for social conservatives to drum the rest of us out of the movement - I've been voting GOP since before some of the members here were born. 

And finally - let's not forget that the name of this place is the GOPBriefingRoom, not ConservativeBriefingRoom.     

You are conflating Conservatism with the Republican Party - a common but dire mistake, when more than half of Conservatives exist outside of the party - Not having eschewed Reagan, but rather the party that so abuses his name. Myself included.

And you'll have to ask @mystery-ak , but as I recall it, she prefers 'The Briefing Room' precisely because allegiance to the GOP is not the point - Rather, Conservatism.

[kidd]

This is not a matter of the SCOTUS "making law";  the wall of separation IS the Establishment Clause.  This isn't like Roe v. Wade where a right was found from the penumbras and emanations of the Constitution.   Have you read the opinion in Everson v. Board of Education?    I did last night, and was struck by the decision's discussion regarding the history of the Establishment Clause and how strongly the Founders were determined to make this a secular Republic.

The role of the Supreme Court in our Republic is to construe and interpret the law, and apply it to the facts of the disputes before it.  Their decisions create precedent, and the tradition of following precedent lends continuity to the Courts' rulings over the decades.    The legislature's role, when they deem it appropriate, is to overrule the decisions of courts by passing laws that make clear the community's intent.   

It is striking to note that that Congress,  after over a century of Court rulings making clear the Constitutional wall of separation,  has rarely if ever acted to disturb these rulings and codify the desires of those who oppose a strictly secular Republic.   It may just be that separation of church and state really and truly is the LAW OF THE LAND and firmly embedded in what it means to be an American.

I think that you are trying to establish that "separation of church and state" is common law.
Black's Law Dictionary defines "Common Law" as "the body of law derived from judicial decisions, rather than from statutes or constitutions"

In In 1938, the U.S. Supreme Court in Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins, it was held that "There is no federal general common law," thus confining the federal courts to act only as interpreters of law originating elsewhere. Wikipedia notes that:" The United States federal courts only act as interpreters of statutes and the constitution by elaborating and more precisely defining broad statutory language but, unlike state courts, do not act as an independent source of common law."

As further proof that the separation of church and state is not the law of the land, there are recent decisions that have broken down "the wall of separation"

1. In the recent Burwell v. Hobby Lobby decision and a related decision, the Supreme Court affirmed the “religious liberty” of employers to deny insurance coverage for birth control to female employees, in direct opposition to Federal law that came from the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). The Supreme Court based its decision on the supposed “religious freedom” of corporations.

2. The Supreme Court also decided, in the recent term, the case of Town of Greece v. Galloway (2014). In that case, the Supreme Court refused to hold that prayers at town hall meetings violated the Establishment Clause.

3.  In 2014, in a dissent in the case of Elmbrook School District v. John Doe, which involved a public school graduation ceremony being held in a church, Justice Scalia held the position that “the First Amendment explicitly favors religion.”

And a guy who is much smarter than you or I had some pretty harsh opinions on "the wall":

4. "The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." - Justice William Rehnquist

5. "It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history. . . . The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly forty years. . . . There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation" - Justice William Rehnquist

[DiogenesLamp]

4. "The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." - Justice William Rehnquist

5. "It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history. . . . The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly forty years. . . . There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation" - Justice William Rehnquist

Same thing I've  been saying.   It was made up,  phoney baloney,  plastic banana nonsense from Roosevelt appointed liberal kooks.   

[Cyber Liberty]

Sorry, Jazz, but I was asking conservatives this question.

Burn!  LOL!

[Hoodat]

Have you read the opinion in Everson v. Board of Education?

I've  read it.  The 'Separation of Church and State' crowd LOST the case.  I am amazed at you level of dishonesty in citing it as supporting your side.

[Sighlass]

Sorry, Jazz, but I was asking conservatives this question. 

Lol, not sure about MurryMom... even though banned one can still read some of her posts... seemed a full fledged liberal to me.

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:murrymom/index?tab=comments;brevity=full;options=no-change

[Chosen Daughter]

Roy Moore mocks the Constitution, and especially the Establishment Clause of the first amendment.   He does not deserve the support of Constitutional conservatives.

Patrick Henry

Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."

George Washington

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.


 

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty...


"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson

3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?

That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock

1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed.

I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.


James Madison

4th U.S. President

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.

James Monroe

5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams

6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

William Penn

Founder of Pennsylvania

"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

"I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause...

"I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Benjamin Rush

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary.

The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

Alexander Hamilton

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor."

--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.


--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.


John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."  John Adams  is a signer of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and our second President.

James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

George Washington, General of the Revolutionary Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, First President of the United States of America, Father of our nation,  " Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society."

Benjamin Franklin, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "

• nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof." Continental Congress, 1778


George Washington

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.


Thomas Jefferson

3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?

That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

[Smokin Joe]

No he isn't.. The Constitution isn't just for Christians. It is for everyone. But I guess "God" pre-ordained him to win.

Where did Moore say it was "just for Christians"? He didn't. As far as the Ten Commandments go, it is the basis for most of our laws.
(Psssst!, those Ten Commandments were given to Moses, they're Jewish!)

Jewish people who practice their religion have lots of other laws, too, which are part of their religion, but not codified in secular law, ergo, there is no violation of the Establishment Clause.

In fact, those Ten Commandments are so non-specific, that those nice Jewish people let Christians use them, too. (No violation there of the free exercise clause).

And even though those are carved in stone, if you are a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim, or don't believe in any deity at all, you are still free to ignore the monument, as people often do unless they are hunting Confederate Soldier Statues or something else to gripe about.

You are only required by law to pay attention to those parts incorporated into secular law. If you don't think those should be there, then we could dispense with laws against murder, theft, adultery, perjury, and whatever else fits, or you can recognize the contribution those ten rules given to Moses have made to our society and move on.

Now, we have a Congress full of Communists, of Liberals, Muslims, Jews, and some nominally Christian folks. There is even one Congressman whom the National Enquirer said was the "Anointed of God", so there is precedent for folks of purt'near all beliefs in that august body. One Moore Christian won't really so seriously alter the balance of power in that club of 535.

Or you are free to support another Democrat.