Russia Likens U.S. Coalition Bombing of Raqa to WWII Dresden

[KingsX]

Your points have been clearly understood.

The bottom line is learning from history and not repeating the same mistakes. And that is not to allow a dictator with bad intentions to take over your country because his so-called good intentions will sooner or later turn bad as well.  Hitler promised his people the Master Race, the German people were jubilant for a while, but as we know he wound up getting millions of German people killed.

Sadly, too many countries out there today still do not understand this lesson of history.

Oh, the irony....

Too late, Trump is already Commander in Chief

[KingsX]

So it emerges, your heroes are mostly all socialists?

Do you admire Americans that are conservative, capitalists at all?

From my personal perspective, there are no modern heroes... not one.

Thus my interest in history.

[truth_seeker]

"The Blitz was a German bombing offensive against Britain in 1940 and 1941, during the Second World War. The term was first used by the British press as an abbreviation of Blitzkrieg (lightning war). The Germans conducted mass air attacks against industrial targets, towns and cities, beginning with raids on London towards the end of the Battle of Britain in 1940, a battle for daylight air superiority between the Luftwaffe and the Royal Air Force over the United Kingdom. By September 1940, the Luftwaffe had failed and the German air fleets (Luftflotten) were ordered to attack London, to draw RAF Fighter Command into a battle of annihilation.[4][5] Adolf Hitler and Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe, ordered the new policy on 6 September 1940. From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 out of the following 57 days and nights.[6] Most notable was a large daylight attack against London on 15 September."

1940 came a long time before 1945. Britain lost 43,000 estimated lives, and countless injured.

Anything done to Germany was more than justified.

[KingsX]

"The Blitz was a German bombing offensive against Britain in 1940 and 1941, during the Second World War. The term was first used by the British press as an abbreviation of Blitzkrieg (lightning war). The Germans conducted mass air attacks against industrial targets, towns and cities, beginning with raids on London towards the end of the Battle of Britain in 1940, a battle for daylight air superiority between the Luftwaffe and the Royal Air Force over the United Kingdom. By September 1940, the Luftwaffe had failed and the German air fleets (Luftflotten) were ordered to attack London, to draw RAF Fighter Command into a battle of annihilation.[4][5] Adolf Hitler and Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe, ordered the new policy on 6 September 1940. From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 out of the following 57 days and nights.[6] Most notable was a large daylight attack against London on 15 September."

1940 came a long time before 1945. Britain lost 43,000 estimated lives, and countless injured.

Anything done to Germany was more than justified.

As a citizen of a nation that has bombed more than its share of victims...
you should be careful what kind of victim response you would justify.

[DB]

Orwell's Fatal Attraction to Democratic Socialism

https://fee.org/articles/the-fatal-attraction-of-democratic-socialism/

[KingsX]

Orwell's Fatal Attraction to Democratic Socialism

https://fee.org/articles/the-fatal-attraction-of-democratic-socialism/

Interesting read... thanks for posting it.


Having read both Orwell's "1984" and Huxley's "Brave New World"... I found these quotes from Postman's book,  "Amusing Ourselves to Death",  quite insightful.

“We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. "

[Smokin Joe]

Interesting read... thanks for posting it.


Having read both Orwell's "1984" and Huxley's "Brave New World"... I found these quotes from Postman's book,  "Amusing Ourselves to Death",  quite insightful.

“We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. "

Nice that someone else here has read all three. We have landed in an amalgam of both.

[Gefn]

I've read all three books.


I've also read Vonnegut. That's where I first leaned about Dresden. For HS AP history class

My dad, like Vonnegut, served in Germany during the war, and was afraid he would find out he was Jewish. The same fear Vonnegut once made a reference to.

When my dad died a year ago I inherited his Eisenhower jacket and dog tags and medals. His dog tags have a "H" on them for "Hebrew "

Dad had bouts of shell shock til his dying day from what he saw over there. Not Dresden he went in at the end as a medic and helped the survivors of the camps. 

(Yay! Post 4,600!)

Btw, a footnote, it's heartbreaking reading about Raqa. The other bombings were way before I was born. This one is happening in real time. Gosh. Speechless

[KingsX]

What Postman wrote about how the medium of television stunts critical thinking and regresses society intellectually and culturally... Carr says about the internet in his book,  "The Shallows."   How reading an article on the internet with flashing ads and embedded links within the text subconsciously interrupts concentration and retards the brain's ability to retain and process information.

In short,  our advanced technology is dumbing us down.  And it keeps getting worse. Look at how texting and twitter have reduced communication down to one liners.

Ironically, we have the ability to communicate with the world in an instant... but have nothing profound to say.

.

[Smokin Joe]

What Postman wrote about how the medium of television stunts critical thinking and regresses society intellectually and culturally... Carr says about the internet in his book,  "The Shallows."   How reading an article on the internet with flashing ads and embedded links within the text subconsciously interrupts concentration and retards the brain's ability to retain and process information.

In short,  our advanced technology is dumbing us down.  And it keeps getting worse. Look at how texting and twitter have reduced communication down to one liners.

Ironically, we have the ability to communicate with the world in an instant... but have nothing profound to say.

.

There is plenty profound to say, but if it can't be squeezed onto a bumper sticker, most folks no longer have the patience to read it. If you were paying attention, you saw examples of this effect during the GOP primaries, especially in media accounts, which only exist to fill the spaces between ad blocks with something that will get you to wait through the commercials for the next oversimplified and likely inaccurate segment. It is advertising revenue that pays the bills, not journalism. Well groomed short attention spans coupled with an habitual craving for instantaneous gratification have consigned all but a few short quips and quotes undesirable in a media stream overrun with information, but short on knowledge and even more bereft of wisdom.

[stephen50right]

As a citizen of a nation that has bombed more than its share of victims...
you should be careful what kind of victim response you would justify.

The "victim response" comes from defending ourselves and protecting our country. The key is what type of response it becomes.

Six million Jews found out what happens when you lay down like sheep - Ya get slaughtered. That's why Israel per capita is without a doubt the most military capable and ready country in the world. Israel will make sure there is never again a Jewish Holocaust. That is a victim response.

Notice since the Dresden bombing and other aggressive actions against Germany in WW2, that there has been no German aggression since. No aggression by Japan either after they met Little Boy and Fat Man. That is a victim response, the civilians, of giving up the will to wage war, and the general population making sure they put political leaders in place who are not warmongers.

I'm presuming your point may be Islamic terrorist acts around the world because of our involvement in the Middle East. I guess you consider these Muslims as victims. Yes there have been innocent civilians killed in the Middle East as what happens in all wars. However, we either protect our oil supply and our national interests, or we don't. Next time you drive your car, be thankful that we do. Otherwise you may have to pedal a bike instead to get around.

[TomSea]

Russia has been called out on their bombings in Syria numerous times.

Unfortunately, all of this is par for the course, we hear the Saudis have pounded Yemen and the US from time to time, carries heavy bombing raids but I don't buy what the Russians are saying.

[Suppressed]

[Suppressed]

http://i.imgur.com/BLxsTN4.mp4

[TomSea]

Before when? Russia bombed the place for at least a year, year and a half.

Russia bombing Raqqa, RT, November 2015.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ZZ-sKAfok

Nov. 2015 as well:

Russia launches cruise missiles at Isis stronghold in Syria
Adam Withnall

The Russian military has fired multiple cruise missiles at the Isis stronghold of Raqqa, the Kremlin has confirmed.

Russia's defence minister told a briefing with President Vladimir Putin that cruise missiles targeted militant positions across Syria's Aleppo and Idlib provinces.

Sergei Shoigu said the missiles were launched from Tu-160 and Tu-95 warplanes, and said they were among 2,300 sorties carried out by the Russian military in the past 48 days.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-launches-cruise-missiles-at-isis-stronghold-of-raqqa-in-syria-a6737631.html

[KingsX]

The "victim response" comes from defending ourselves and protecting our country. The key is what type of response it becomes.

Six million Jews found out what happens when you lay down like sheep - Ya get slaughtered. That's why Israel per capita is without a doubt the most military capable and ready country in the world. Israel will make sure there is never again a Jewish Holocaust. That is a victim response.

Notice since the Dresden bombing and other aggressive actions against Germany in WW2, that there has been no German aggression since. No aggression by Japan either after they met Little Boy and Fat Man. That is a victim response, the civilians, of giving up the will to wage war, and the general population making sure they put political leaders in place who are not warmongers.

I'm presuming your point may be Islamic terrorist acts around the world because of our involvement in the Middle East. I guess you consider these Muslims as victims. Yes there have been innocent civilians killed in the Middle East as what happens in all wars. However, we either protect our oil supply and our national interests, or we don't.  Next time you drive your car, be thankful that we do. Otherwise you may have to pedal a bike instead to get around.

The USA has indeed become the hammer of the earth that stuns its victims into silence.

But that silence may not last forever.

One specific victim of endless US wars I was thinking of was Christian Serbia who was bombed for trying to protect their ancient Christian homeland from Muslims.  Serbs asked for a ceasefire to observe Easter and it was denied... so the US killed Christians on Easter for no good reason. Those are the kind of victims one should really worry about.  But instead they have been forgotten... even though the US still has troops in Kosovo [which is now basically a Muslim state.]

[txradioguy]

Let them think that. Let them fear Donald Trump and our military. That's a good thing.

Except pPutin doesn't fear us.  Especially in Europe because he has us outgunned.

Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Trump said many times during the 2016 presidential campaign that he was going to knock the hell out of ISIS. President Trump keeps yet another campaign promise.

Really?  Daesh has been wiped off the face of the earth?  When did that happen?

[stephen50right]

Except pPutin doesn't fear us.  Especially in Europe because he has us outgunned.

Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Really?  Daesh has been wiped off the face of the earth?  When did that happen?

Sorry to inform you but it would be foolish to think that anything other than MAD, and you should know what that means, really matters between keeping the peace between us and Russia.

Doesn't matter if Russia has us "outgunned' as you say. Putin only needs to know that Trump will push the nuclear button without hesitation if Putin tries any shenanigans on NATO soil. Yes, we would first fight Russia with conventional weapons if they invaded a NATO country...but it that fails, we will use the nuke option to stop Russian aggression.

No, not on Moscow at first, but on the Red Army, they would be incinerated. Putin would get the message and back off. But it won't come to all that because Putin will not dare test Donald Trump...guaranteed.

[txradioguy]

Sorry to inform you but it would be foolish to think that anything other than MAD, and you should know what that means, really matters between keeping the peace between us and Russia.

When was the last time you were in Europe?  Sat through a brief with the USAREUR commander on force distribution and capabilities throughout the continent?

Are you privy to any info on the discussions with the former WARSAW Pact countries and U.S. Army Europe about what to do to stop the Russian advances?

Have you ever been in a briefing with LTG Hodges where he outlines his plan to blunt Russian aggression without the threat of nukes?

No?  You haven't?

Then you have no clue what you're talking about with your BS about the only way to keep Russia in check is via mutually assured destruction.

Doesn't matter if Russia has us "outgunned' as you say. Putin only needs to know that Trump will push the nuclear button without hesitation if Putin tries any shenanigans on NATO soil. Yes, we would first fight Russia with conventional weapons if they invaded a NATO country...but it that fails, we will use the nuke option to stop Russian aggression.

And you need to understand that unlike in Korea...Trump can't act unilaterally like that.  There is a thing called NATO and well unless WW III breaks out on the continent...(hint:  It's not) something like a scene from Dr. Strangelove isn't going to happen...even though you seem to want it to.

Oh and guess what...he HAS already "tried shenanigans on NATO soil"...in the Ukraine.

So....

No, not on Moscow at first, but on the Red Army, they would be incinerated. Putin would get the message and back off.

Putin has been rearming...upgrading his technology weapons armor and munitions over the last 8 years.  We've essentially lost the edge in Armor  aircraft and submarines we used to enjoy.

Our carrier group in the med couldn't find a diesel electric improved Alpha II class sub recently.

He's got more front line troops sitting on the Russian Ukraine border right now than we can muster with NATO help in Europe.


You need to put down the bong and quit talking about how we'd "incinerate" the Russian Army.

But it won't come to all that because Putin will not dare test Donald Trump...guaranteed.

Yeah sure he won't.  Who do you think we're fighting against in Syria?  Who's generals do you think are helping the Iraqi's beat back Daesh in Iraq and supplying the Egyptians with new aircraft right now?

Putin's war games that are only supposed to be limited by treaty to 40K troops...used double that number just a month ago.

Putin is testing Trump every day...and Donny is too fixated on Twitter to notice.

[stephen50right]

When was the last time you were in Europe?  Sat through a brief with the USAREUR commander on force distribution and capabilities throughout the continent?

Are you privy to any info on the discussions with the former WARSAW Pact countries and U.S. ARmy Europe about what to do to stop the Russian advances?

Have you ever been in a briefing with LTG Hodges where he outlines his plan to blunt Russian aggression without the threat of nukes?

No?  You haven't?

Then you have no clue what you're talking about with your BS about the only way to keep Russia in check is via mutually assured destruction.

And you need to understand that unlike in Korea...Trump can't act unilaterally like that.  There is a thing called NATO and well unless WW III breaks out on the continent...(hint:  It's not) something like a scene from Dr. Strangelove isn't going to happen...even though you seem to want it to.

Oh and guess what...he HAS already "tried shenanigans on NATO soil"...in the Ukraine.

So....

Yeah sure he won't.  Who do you think we're fighting against in Syria?  Who's generals do you think are helping the Iraqi's beat back Daesh in Iraq and supplying the Egyptians with new aircraft right now?

Putin's war games that are only supposed to be limited by treaty to 40K troops...used double that number just a month ago.

Putin is testing Trump every day...and Donny is too fixated on Twitter to notice.

<<< Oh and guess what...he HAS already "tried shenanigans on NATO soil"...in the Ukraine. >>>

Now you know that Ukraine is not a NATO member, so why do you make a silly comment such as that?

And as far as the war strategy, it's basically common sense. Frankly, if NATO attacked Russia first, Putin would do the exact same thing to us.

MAD keeps the peace and it will continue to keep the peace among the superpowers. None of us are suicidal.

[txradioguy]

<<< Oh and guess what...he HAS already "tried shenanigans on NATO soil"...in the Ukraine. >>>

Now you know that Ukraine is not a NATO member, so why do you make a silly comment such as that?

They are what's known as a "partnership nation"...they have applied for entry into the alliance and it's still going through the process. Support for it died down for a few years but ramped back up after Putin invaded the Ukraine.  NATO has partnership agreements with most of the former Soviet satellite countries.  Everywhere you see the U.S. Army training in Europe that's where NATO has a partner alliance.

Perhaps you should do some research before you call others silly.

And as far as the war strategy, it's basically common sense. Frankly, if NATO attacked Russia first, Putin would do the exact same thing to us.

NAO was never designed to be an offensive style alliance.  It was designed to provide a unified European front/defense against the Soviet Union.

MAD keeps the peace and it will continue to keep the peace among the superpowers. None of us are suicidal.

MAD keeps the entire world on edge and never feeling at ease.  It didn't keep the peace.  The U.S. and Russia fought proxy wars against each other and directly at times under the seas during the entire Cold War.

[txradioguy]

From my personal perspective, there are no modern heroes... not one.

Thus my interest in history.

Then you need to expand your historical knowledge.  There is a small cadre of people some living...some dead...most don't consider themselves heroes...but they performed heroic actions that make them heroes in the eyes of the people.

You might recognize them by this:




If you were watching the horrific events unfold on 9/11 they looked like this:




There are plenty of examples of modern day heroes...if you're willing to be honest and actually look for them.

[stephen50right]

They are what's known as a "partnership nation"...they have applied for entry into the alliance and it's still going through the process. Support for it died down for a few years but ramped back up after Putin invaded the Ukraine.  NATO has partnership agreements with most of the former Soviet satellite countries.  Everywhere you see the U.S. Army training in Europe that's where NATO has a partner alliance.

Perhaps you should do some research before you call others silly.

NAO was never designed to be an offensive style alliance.  It was designed to provide a unified European front/defense against the Soviet Union.

MAD keeps the entire world on edge and never feeling at ease.  It didn't keep the peace.  The U.S. and Russia fought proxy wars against each other and directly at times under the seas during the entire Cold War.

For your information - NATO only defends member nations.

Yes, NATO is only for defensive purposes, but do you really think Putin fully believes that? Of course he doesn't, based on the West's past of invading Russia.

There have been no major wars between the superpowers since the doctrine of MAD. You know that so please stop with the spins.

[stephen50right]

Then you need to expand your historical knowledge.  There is a small cadre of people some living...some dead...most don't consider themselves heroes...but they performed heroic actions that make them heroes in the eyes of the people.

You might recognize them by this:




If you were watching the horrific events unfold on 9/11 they looked like this:




There are plenty of examples of modern day heroes...if you're willing to be honest and actually look for them.

Now on your post here, I fully agree with ya!

[IsailedawayfromFR]

As a citizen of a nation that has bombed more than its share of victims...
you should be careful what kind of victim response you would justify.

Are you German then?