Author Topic: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services  (Read 21685 times)

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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 01:59:07 am »
So how does an abortionist know whether he is committing murder or just taking a life, which begins at birth as @Jazzhead declared?   

As of now, abortion is based on when life becomes viable, not when life begins. (We'll have to see how the administration's change affects the laws on the books.)

So right now until viability the mother is considered a "host" of sorts and controls the future of the pregnancy (not even the biological father has a legal say).  Abortions performed before viability as defined in the previous post are legal.  Technically those performed at or after viability are not, but often "the health of the mother" is the go to reason for the late term abortion. 

The federal Born-Alive Infant Protection Act of 2002 amends the legal definitions of "person," "human being," "child" and "individual" to include any fetus that survives an abortion procedure. The federal law requires doctors to attempt to keep alive a fetus that survives an abortion.  (https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fetus/ )



« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 02:04:17 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 02:06:30 am »
Totally agree with Cruz in the above tweet,...

Then you should be deliriously happy with the President:


Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 02:09:17 am »
As of now, abortion is based on when life becomes viable, not when life begins. (We'll have to see how the administration's change affects the laws on the books.)

So right now until viability the mother is considered a "host" of sorts and controls the future of the pregnancy (not even the biological father has a legal say).  Abortions performed before viability as defined in the previous post are legal.  Technically those performed at or after viability are not, but often "the health of the mother" is the go to reason for the late term abortion. 

The federal Born-Alive Infant Protection Act of 2002 amends the legal definitions of "person," "human being," "child" and "individual" to include any fetus that survives an abortion procedure. The federal law requires doctors to attempt to keep alive a fetus that survives an abortion.  (https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fetus/ )
Once again, how does one establish 'viability' prior to performing an abortion of this life?

It seems from the way you describe it viability is only known once the actual abortion has taken place.  Of course, I understand abortion procedure sometime involve sucking the brains out of the infant prior to it leaving the womb in order to prevent an otherwise viable child from being born.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 02:17:36 am »
Persuasion is more effective at saving unborn lives than coercion.   Why are you so afraid of it?

Really?  We had few abortions when it was legal?  Is that your claim?
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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2017, 02:20:34 am »
The natural environment of a 20 week old fetus is not outside the womb and is perfectly viable inside.
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2017, 02:21:47 am »
Here is the link to the HHS Full Strategic Plan:  https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/hhs-draft-strategic-plan-fy2018-2022.pdf

Strategic Goal 3 begins at 844:

Quote
Strategic Goal 3: Strengthen the Economic and Social Well-Being of Americans across the Lifespan

A core component of the HHS mission is our dedication to serve all Americans from conception to natural death, but especially those individuals and populations facing or at high risk for economic and social well-being challenges, through effective human services. HHS efforts to improve human services include efforts to support socially and economically safe, stable environments for individuals, families, and communities. This strategic goal also focuses on HHS efforts to improve outcomes for children and families, older adults, people with disabilities,.....

Online roamer_1

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2017, 02:29:02 am »
Here is the link to the HHS Full Strategic Plan:  https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/hhs-draft-strategic-plan-fy2018-2022.pdf

Strategic Goal 3 begins at 844:

Wow. Cradle to the grave... Sounds sooooo conservative.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2017, 02:34:05 am »
Once again, how does one establish 'viability' prior to performing an abortion of this life? 

Here's the law: 

Quote
fetal viability

The ability of a fetus to survive outside of the womb. Historically, a fetus was considered to be capable of living at the end of gestational week 20 when the mother had felt fetal movement (quickening) and the fetal heart tones could be auscultated with a fetoscope.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fetal+viability

If the doctor gets it wrong and the fetus medically assessed not to be viable actually is, under the federal Born-Alive Infant Protection Act of 2002  he/she must attempt to keep the baby alive (with up-to-date medicine)   (https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fetus/ )

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2017, 02:35:55 am »
The natural environment of a 20 week old fetus is not outside the womb and is perfectly viable inside.

Completely agree.  But abortion law defines "viability" as outside the womb (able to live on its own with up-to-date medical support, as required)

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2017, 02:38:57 am »
It seems from the way you describe it viability ...

I am not describing viability, the definition is federal law.

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2017, 02:47:12 am »
Wow. Cradle to the grave... Sounds sooooo conservative.

You're missing the points.  This defines life as "at conception" (not cradle) and death as "natural" (repudiating euthanasia)

Online roamer_1

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2017, 02:49:51 am »
You're missing the points.  This defines life as "at conception" (not cradle) and death as "natural" (repudiating euthanasia)

No, I am not missing the point. You are.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2017, 02:54:52 am »
No, I am not missing the point. You are.

Nope you're wrong ... and I don't care how many times you post it, so save your energy. 


Offline Suppressed

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2017, 03:14:06 am »
If the union of a human sperm an a human egg is not a human being what the heck is it?

A zygote.

Is a seed a tree?  Is a foundation a house?  Is a stack of paper a novel?

Perhaps they are all potentials.

After all, at least 1/3 of all zygotes -- perhaps a majority of them -- pass out of a woman's body without her ever even being aware a conception occurred.  Do we know that each was given a soul just to be discarded?  Or perhaps that arrives at some later point?
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2017, 03:15:59 am »
A zygote.

Is a seed a tree?  Is a foundation a house?  Is a stack of paper a novel?

Perhaps they are all potentials.

After all, at least 1/3 of all zygotes -- perhaps a majority of them -- pass out of a woman's body without her ever even being aware a conception occurred.  Do we know that each was given a soul just to be discarded?  Or perhaps that arrives at some later point?

And I don't know the science of it but, it seems some of them have DNA which would seem to point towards it being a person.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2017, 03:10:02 pm »
You apparently aren't well-informed enough to realize how deeply and permanently harmful having an abortion is to a woman.

Abortion is the worst thing that's happened to the progress and equality of women in America.  It degrades women, it kills FAR more little girls than little boys, it harms bodies, souls and spirits.

If you cared about women........ really............ you'd oppose abortion with the same fervor that you promote and defend it here.

What makes your think I support abortion?   I oppose abortion the same as you do,  and for many of the same reasons.   It's a horrible choice.  But it must, until viability or quickening or the point where fetal pain can be felt,  be a legal choice.

It is not the state's place, in a Constitutional republic that respects the right of the individual, to force a woman to reproduce.   Should she have kept her legs shut if she wasn't ready to have a baby?   Of course - but so what.   You're not the boss of her, and neither is the doggone government.   You are making a moral argument, and backing it up by insisting that your moral condemnation of her mistake instead be a coercive directive backed up by force of law.   

That is where we disagree.  I say persuade her to do the right thing. Give her some money and support to do the right thing.   Tell her all the terrible consequences to her future psyche if she goes through with an abortion, and what is precious that will be lost even if she has to see her baby born only to be given over to be raised by another.     It'll be more effective coming from you,  spoken in an atmosphere of love and respect,  than it ever will be coming from a punitive state.   

« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 03:14:20 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2017, 03:25:09 pm »
Even if you don't believe that life begins at conception, quickening is a pretty poor measure considering that a woman who has previously carried a child can recognize a baby's movements in the womb weeks before a first-time mother usually does.

Acknowledging the woman's dominion at least until quickening is traditional.   Another point in time to consider is the point at which the fetus can feel pain.   Lastly is viability,  which is where the law is probably evolving,  with the legal definition expressed, I believe, as a number of designated weeks following implantation. 
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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2017, 04:16:57 pm »
I don't know when life begins, I think only G-d does. At conception or at quickening?


Some women know an hour after they are pregnant, they can feel it.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 04:17:37 pm by Freya »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2017, 05:22:46 pm »
What makes your think I support abortion?   I oppose abortion the same as you do,  and for many of the same reasons.   It's a horrible choice.  But it must, until viability or quickening or the point where fetal pain can be felt,  be a legal choice.

It is not the state's place, in a Constitutional republic that respects the right of the individual, to force a woman to reproduce.   Should she have kept her legs shut if she wasn't ready to have a baby?   Of course - but so what.   You're not the boss of her, and neither is the doggone government.   You are making a moral argument, and backing it up by insisting that your moral condemnation of her mistake instead be a coercive directive backed up by force of law.   

That is where we disagree.  I say persuade her to do the right thing. Give her some money and support to do the right thing.   Tell her all the terrible consequences to her future psyche if she goes through with an abortion, and what is precious that will be lost even if she has to see her baby born only to be given over to be raised by another.     It'll be more effective coming from you,  spoken in an atmosphere of love and respect,  than it ever will be coming from a punitive state.

You manage to talk around the issue, evade, and use liberal talking points, all the while being deceitful about pro-lifers.

It is the pro-life movement that has been compassionate......... that has persuaded, that has provided for the needs of Moms and babies, that has treated women with respect.

It is you on the left, advocating abortion (yes you do, and on a daily basis here), who are in complete denial of the permanent harm abortion does to women.

Why did you not respond to my comments about the lack of compassion and degradation of women that abortion causes?

Why do you keep talking about the "state" as if people like you haven't used the state to make killing babies legal.

The whole "let women kill their babies" was from the left and the state, and was not done legally.   The whole "reproductive rights" argument is a lie, and yet you believe it and promote it with your heart and soul.

Why not become a compassionate, caring human being, @Jazzhead , and oppose abortion to protect women and children?

Why don't you care about women?  Why don't you care about children?

And most importantly here, why do you lie repeatedly about those of us who do?  Why is it so important to you to malign the movement that respects women?  Pro-life conservatives.

Why??
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2017, 05:36:21 pm »

Why do you keep talking about the "state" as if people like you haven't used the state to make killing babies legal.


Simple.  People like Jazzy who push the Leftist agenda are opposed to the 'state' upholding biblical morality, virtue and religion - but at the exact same time, are wholeheartedly in favor of USING the state to IMPOSE their wicked and perverted morality upon the rest of us via punishment, pain and imprisonment along with intimidation and threat.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 05:36:39 pm by INVAR »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2017, 07:36:01 pm »
Here's the law: 

If the doctor gets it wrong and the fetus medically assessed not to be viable actually is, under the federal Born-Alive Infant Protection Act of 2002  he/she must attempt to keep the baby alive (with up-to-date medicine)   (https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fetus/ )
Nope, don't hide behind a law.

I am asking how a doctor who is asked to perform an abortion, can determine that a fetus is viable BEFORE the procedure.

If he sticks a suction device into the brain and sucks it out during the procedure, everyone can be assured the fetus is no longer viable, although it could have been viable prior to the time HE CAUSED IT to no longer be viable.

Help me understand.  @Jazzhead already said that fetus represent a life, so it seems there must be some ironclad, 100% surety somebody is not killing a viable child before one undertakes an abortion  and terminates a life.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2017, 07:45:42 pm »
You're not the boss of her, and neither is the doggone government.

Where that argument breaks down if she waits until well after the child is born, the government does force her to spend her time and money to take care of the child.  If she abandon the child, she can be sued to pay child support. (as was done with my niece)

She does not get to kill the child if she finds it inconvenient after the child is born.  The same should apply before.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2017, 08:09:58 pm »
It's off-topic to the conversation but, since it seems one person seems to often slight Christianity though they say they are one themselves, who feeds the hungry of the world? In Africa and elsewhere? Yes, we see some charities over there and I'm not going to lump that religion in with all others and the atheists and secularists aren't over there en masse either.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2017, 09:03:39 pm »
Nope, don't hide behind a law.  I am asking how a doctor who is asked to perform an abortion, can determine that a fetus is viable BEFORE the procedure. ....

I'm not hiding, period @IsailedawayfromFR   If you want to know how the law is interpreted and applied, ask a doctor.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2017, 09:08:24 pm »
Where that argument breaks down if she waits until well after the child is born, the government does force her to spend her time and money to take care of the child.  If she abandon the child, she can be sued to pay child support. (as was done with my niece)

She does not get to kill the child if she finds it inconvenient after the child is born.  The same should apply before.

Is not the essence of the debate when the fetus becomes a child? @thackney   As of now, that moment is defined as at viability outside the womb.