Author Topic: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left  (Read 46968 times)

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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #700 on: October 19, 2017, 09:48:45 pm »
Lincoln's sophistry is well known and documented!

And so powerfully, eloquently, and rightly stated as to elevate him in the eyes of  the vast majority of historians as the greatest of our presidents...rivaling even General Washington.

Ronald Reagan himself said "In the party of Lincoln, there is no room for intolerance and not even a small corner for anti-Semitism or bigotry of any kind. Many people are welcome in our house, but not the bigots." .....when referring to the GOP. Clearly, he honored the greatness of Lincoln in referring to his beloved Republican party as "his" party.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #701 on: October 19, 2017, 09:51:18 pm »
And so powerfully, eloquently, and rightly stated as to elevate him in the eyes of  the vast majority of historians as the greatest of our presidents...rivaling even General Washington.

Ronald Reagan himself said "In the party of Lincoln, there is no room for intolerance and not even a small corner for anti-Semitism or bigotry of any kind. Many people are welcome in our house, but not the bigots." .....when referring to the GOP. Clearly, he honored the greatness of Lincoln in referring to his beloved Republican party as "his" party.

The fact that the victors get to write the history books has an effect to be sure!  But the FACTS remain facts forever!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #702 on: October 19, 2017, 09:55:09 pm »
The fact that the victors get to write the history books has an effect to be sure!  But the FACTS remain facts forever!

Reagan knew the facts. Yet, he called the GOP Lincoln's party. Why would he do such a thing?
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #703 on: October 19, 2017, 09:58:10 pm »
The fact that the victors get to write the history books has an effect to be sure!  But the FACTS remain facts forever!

Au contraire. There are volumes upon volumes of history written by the losers of the civil war.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #704 on: October 19, 2017, 09:58:38 pm »
Reagan knew the facts. Yet, he called the GOP Lincoln's party. Why would he do such a thing?

You suppose he knew the facts.  I seriously doubt that to be true.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #705 on: October 19, 2017, 10:00:43 pm »
Au contraire. There are volumes upon volumes of history written by the losers of the civil war.

This is true!  But until relatively recently only that which toed the party line saw the light of day.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #706 on: October 19, 2017, 10:10:01 pm »
This is true!  But until relatively recently only that which toed the party line saw the light of day.
A

Who's party and what line are you referring to. Guys like Shelby Foote and many others...right back to many southern vet associations right after the war...have been arguing the southern viewpoint on the war for a very long time. More recent studies...actually are trending towards asserting slavery as the clear and primary cause for the war...often in the past the argument had been that economic pressures were pre-eminent.

As for Reagan, if you always assume he knew of what he spoke...you'd be right in nearly every instance.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 10:11:01 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #707 on: October 19, 2017, 10:11:54 pm »
You've presented no new information thus far...these are old, failed arguments proclaiming that states can rebel and secede.



Who proclaimed them "failed",   when in fact they are quite compelling in terms of logic and reason?   So far as "new information"  goes,  would you even look at it?   



 This dispute was resolved in 1865, and to be frank...the issue must always be resolved via instruments of power.


The principle that people should not be subjugated was promoted by forced subjugation.   Or was the primary principle that the Union shall not be divided?   

Why then did Lincoln offer to let the lesser states go if Virginia would remain?   Why did he accept the secession of West Virginia when the US Constitution expressly forbids such a thing?   

Seems as though these constitutional principles are getting picked according to the whim of one man. 




 Individual rights come from the divine, states rights and powers as per the constitution are essentially those not granted therein...but there is another stricture, that of real power and realpolitic.


Divine right of Kings.  Look it up sometime.   





We had the right to revolt from the British because we, in the end, had the power to do so...and yes, a position of moral high ground makes the power easier to accumulate and direct.


Let us not fool ourselves.   We did not have the power to revolt from the British.   Had Mad King George III been so bloodthirsty as Lincoln,  we would still be singing "God save the Queen."    King George stopped his war after 15,000 casualties.   Lincoln kept his going till the direct casualties of the war reached 750,000.   



Put directly, states cannot secede because...well...states will not be allowed to do so AND because we did not write a mechanism into our governing document to allow them to establish any moral high ground in such an effort.


In the document from which the Constitution itself gains it's own legitimacy,  we articulated the God given right of any state to have independence.    There needs to have been written no further acknowledgement of what everyone in 1787 already understood.   



Lincoln understood that the Union must be preserved at almost any cost.


Why?   On what rational basis can you claim that the Union of the Crowns can be broken,  but the Union of the States must be preserved?   

What compelling moral argument requires us to believe that States which had voluntarily entered the Union could not voluntarily leave?   Are we a nation of freedom or a Mafia?   







He also knew that he had the moral high ground, as the southern states were clinging to slavery.


Which would have been preserved indefinitely had they remained in the Union.  The Union would have clung to Slavery.   So how is that a moral high ground?    Lincoln even offered to support an amendment to the constitution to insure and continue slavery.    How did he have the moral high ground?   



..which was not the immediate cause of the war, but make no mistake, its underlying structure was precisely the social construct that led the nation...almost inevitably...into civil conflict.


It wasn't it's underlying structure that led to war,  it was the fact that it was producing so much money.   Had the slave states been impoverished and of no financial account,  Lincoln would have kissed them good bye,  with or without slavery.    The Slave states were paying for between 75-83% of all Federal revenues,  and they were pumping 200 million dollars per year through the New York economy.   

Most of the nation's shipping was tied up in moving Southern products to Europe and European imports back to the US.   Southern independence meant putting most of the Northern based shipping industry out of business.   

Direct trade between Europe and the South would have wrecked much of the Northern Industry,  and worse,  the Capitalization of Southern ports would have spurred investments in industry in those areas that would have come into direct competition with the Northern industries. 

And Worse.  Low Tariff trade through the South and by way of the Mississippi river would have resulted in many of the western states coming into the economic influence of the Confederacy. 

And worse.  Those states who's economic interests had become entwined with the South would have joined the Confederacy,  and cut off expansion by the US into the further west.   


It was about money and power.   








In fact, for Lincoln, the ending of slavery was only subordinate to the necessity of keeping the Union intact...and until rebellion broke out, he had been willing to endure the lesser evil to stifle the greater.


What we have is the greater evil.  We are now in thrall to Washington DC,  and an "establishment"  (which I believe began about the time of the Civil War)  now runs the place and cares not much about what happens to it's citizens.   

Slavery would have eventually waned away through economic and social pressure.  Every nation in the world eventually abolished it,  and so too would it have been in the South,  though it may have taken another 40 years or so.   

But our Fedzilla has grown and grown and grown and still holds the promise of eating us all someday. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #708 on: October 19, 2017, 10:15:54 pm »
And so powerfully, eloquently, and rightly stated as to elevate him in the eyes of  the vast majority of historians as the greatest of our presidents...rivaling even General Washington.

Ronald Reagan himself said "In the party of Lincoln, there is no room for intolerance and not even a small corner for anti-Semitism or bigotry of any kind. Many people are welcome in our house, but not the bigots." .....when referring to the GOP. Clearly, he honored the greatness of Lincoln in referring to his beloved Republican party as "his" party.


Lincolns intellect and way with words cannot be denied.   He was probably one of the most clever presidents we have ever had,  and he could certainly turn a phrase.   


But the fact that he was a good wordsmith and the fact that so many people revere him does not make his actions correct or moral.   He killed a lot of people over money, and then he told everyone it was over slavery.   

Not good.  In fact,  very bad.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #709 on: October 19, 2017, 10:18:19 pm »
A

Who's party and what line are you referring to. Guys like Shelby Foote and many others...right back to many southern vet associations right after the war...have been arguing the southern viewpoint on the war for a very long time. More recent studies...actually are trending towards asserting slavery as the clear and primary cause for the war...often in the past the argument had been that economic pressures were pre-eminent.




http://www.civilwarcauses.org/rhett.htm
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline INVAR

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #710 on: October 19, 2017, 10:26:39 pm »
But our Fedzilla has grown and grown and grown and still holds the promise of eating us all someday.

This is the most salient point made in this going-nowhere argument.

The fact that the establishment of Federal Statism and the diminishment of Republicanism began as a direct result of the Civil War is self-evident to anyone who is honest.  "Preserving the Union" was for the sole purpose of establishing the supremacy of the Federal Beast and its financial health over everything else in life.

The slow incremental devolution into tyranny and an all-powerful state having spent us into oblivion, trillions beyond what the planet itself is worth - promises that once this fiat system of corruption and tyranny finally succumbs to the laws of economics like gravity - the bloodbath and destruction is going to make the civil war tame by comparison.

Of course it will be interesting to discover whom wins picking over our carcass from without - after it was killed from within.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #711 on: October 19, 2017, 11:22:40 pm »

Lincolns intellect and way with words cannot be denied.   He was probably one of the most clever presidents we have ever had,  and he could certainly turn a phrase.   


But the fact that he was a good wordsmith and the fact that so many people revere him does not make his actions correct or moral.   He killed a lot of people over money, and then he told everyone it was over slavery.   

Not good.  In fact,  very bad.

Slavery was the decisive factor leading to war, and its usefulness to a southern agrarian economy...and its import to the social stratification of the South. That IS the general consensus among historians, and its correct. Yes, money was a cold hard factor as always. Yes, there were a multitude of other factors....but the divide over slavery fueled the rancor and drove the division that led to rebellion.  As for Lincoln, without his steadfast devotion to maintaining the Union....and then his drive to abolish slavery...the greatest nation the earth has ever seen would not have risen to greatness, and saved the world from Nazis, Soviets and a host of other existential threats. Reagan recognized this, as have the vast majority of wise leaders in our history.

So this meme that "Lincoln killed people over money" is just a simple lie. If anything, the South seceded over money. Frankly, money was, is and always has been a factor in every war...but in our civil war, it was not the driving force. Responsibility for the millions of deaths lies in our nation's inability to resolve the issue of slavery without war...and as always...the fault lay not our stars or our money...but in ourselves.

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Offline Bigun

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #712 on: October 19, 2017, 11:25:55 pm »
Slavery was the decisive factor leading to war, and its usefulness to a southern agrarian economy...and its import to the social stratification of the South. That IS the general consensus among historians, and its correct. Yes, money was a cold hard factor as always. Yes, there were a multitude of other factors....but the divide over slavery fueled the rancor and drove the division that led to rebellion.  As for Lincoln, without his steadfast devotion to maintaining the Union....and then his drive to abolish slavery...the greatest nation the earth has ever seen would not have risen to greatness, and saved the world from Nazis, Soviets and a host of other existential threats. Reagan recognized this, as have the vast majority of wise leaders in our history.

So this meme that "Lincoln killed people over money" is just a simple lie. If anything, the South seceded over money. Frankly, money was, is and always has been a factor in every war...but in our civil war, it was not the driving force. Responsibility for the millions of deaths lies in our nation's inability to resolve the issue of slavery without war...and as always...the fault lay not our stars or our money...but in ourselves.

You can repeat that lie till hell freezes over but you will never make it true!  It was money!  Tarrif money! And protecting Norteastern manufacturing interests.  Nothing more!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #713 on: October 19, 2017, 11:29:12 pm »
You can repeat that lie till hell freezes over but you will never make it true!  It was money!  Tarrif money! And protecting Norteastern manufacturing interests.  Nothing more!

But, slavery was a convenient excuse, and there were good reasons to go after slavery. 

We know Lincoln was at best ambivalent about the issue.

Offline Bigun

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #714 on: October 19, 2017, 11:31:33 pm »
But, slavery was a convenient excuse, and there were good reasons to go after slavery. 

We know Lincoln was at best ambivalent about the issue.

Never was an issue until 1863 and after union forces had suffered some stunning defeats.  A historical fact.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #715 on: October 19, 2017, 11:32:26 pm »
This is the most salient point made in this going-nowhere argument.

The fact that the establishment of Federal Statism and the diminishment of Republicanism began as a direct result of the Civil War is self-evident to anyone who is honest.  "Preserving the Union" was for the sole purpose of establishing the supremacy of the Federal Beast and its financial health over everything else in life.

The slow incremental devolution into tyranny and an all-powerful state having spent us into oblivion, trillions beyond what the planet itself is worth - promises that once this fiat system of corruption and tyranny finally succumbs to the laws of economics like gravity - the bloodbath and destruction is going to make the civil war tame by comparison.

Of course it will be interesting to discover whom wins picking over our carcass from without - after it was killed from within.

The easy use of the word "tyranny" is disgusting. I've seen real tyranny...people don't get to walk out on the street...or over the airwaves...and spout their opinions as they feel fit under tyranny. People don't have as many guns and rifles as they please under tyranny...and I'd venture most of us here have a broad collection of these weapons. And under tyranny, we don't hold secret ballots and cast our vote for whomever we please. No, people are afraid to speak their mind, they are poor/starving fools cowed by the threat of work camps and mass murder. Such is tyranny, so quit misusing the term for some lame dramatic effect.

If you think what you see here in this nation is that, you need to do a LOT more reading...or traveling. Under true tyranny, you would not be here on this message board spouting crazy...so be thankful you do NOT know what tyranny is.

Yes there is corruption. Yes there is ineptitude and overreach. And yes, the democratic "mob" can threaten real freedoms like speech and the right to bear arms...but likewise, we can still vote for whomever we wish to counter that threat, and we can use persuasion to win a majority of citizens to our cause. So get a grip, and return to reality. What you seem to call tyranny, is simply the vast majority of citizens disagreeing with your personal philosophy.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #716 on: October 19, 2017, 11:37:15 pm »
Never was an issue until 1863 and after union forces had suffered some stunning defeats.  A historical fact.

That's not even in shouting distance of being a fact.

The slavery divide and the march to war began with a series of battles in congress and the huge compromises that were made as new states entered the Union. Over time, the western world and most people in the North grew to deeply oppose slavery...even some in the south felt this way. But the economic value of slavery to the South continued to drive a wedge between the two regions of the nation, and so led eventually to war. So yes, slavery drove the conflict from almost the day the Constitution was first complete...and the division and rancor it created between South and North was the primary cause of the war. Just because the 14th amendment was not put forward and Lincoln was willing to tolerate slavery prior to open rebellion...does not change the overarching manner in which slavery drove the nation into war with itself.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #717 on: October 19, 2017, 11:53:17 pm »
That's not even in shouting distance of being a fact.

The slavery divide and the march to war began with a series of battles in congress and the huge compromises that were made as new states entered the Union. Over time, the western world and most people in the North grew to deeply oppose slavery...even some in the south felt this way. But the economic value of slavery to the South continued to drive a wedge between the two regions of the nation, and so led eventually to war. So yes, slavery drove the conflict from almost the day the Constitution was first complete...and the division and rancor it created between South and North was the primary cause of the war. Just because the 14th amendment was not put forward and Lincoln was willing to tolerate slavery prior to open rebellion...does not change the overarching manner in which slavery drove the nation into war with itself.

Yes it was a major social issue of the day but not the proximate cause for Lincoln's choosing to go to war.  And that is an absolute FACT!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #718 on: October 20, 2017, 12:04:28 am »
The easy use of the word "tyranny" is disgusting. I've seen real tyranny...

So have I bub.  I lived in a place where I got to watch people get ripped apart by mobs accompanied by "police" simply because of whom they worship.  I got to experience a taste of what it is like to be an untouchable and suffer to watch people I love get brutalized, beaten, cheated and oppressed, starved and threatened in the most heinous ways imaginable.

You don't get to lecture me about what tyranny looks like.  I've seen it up close.

And yes, what is being institutionalized here are the very mechanisms of tyranny the Founders warned us about, not withstanding robbing us, our children, our grandchildren our great grandchildren of our wealth and property to the tune of trillions that can never be repaid so the current generation can live in luxury and power without any regard to anyone but themselves. That generation having grown the Beast to the point it intrudes into every aspect of our lives, because they want provision - not liberty.

Empowering the state to force us to buy products and services we do not want by overnight vote without a single representative having read the legislation; to having the court write legislation to make what was illegal, legal; to forcing us to violate our faith and consciences to create, serve and acknowledge sexual deviancy - are tyrannies far beyond what our forbears went to war over against the Crown.

Mankind's nature is to suffer evil while evil is sufferable rather than risk what is necessary to throw off the chains of tyranny and slavery that they are grown accustomed.

All you are doing is playing apologist for federally-administered tyranny that got it's start in 1865 by "saving the Union" and forcing a people back under the power of Washington at the point of many guns.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #719 on: October 20, 2017, 01:57:15 am »
Slavery was the decisive factor leading to war,


How could it be when it was already legal in the Union?   Lincoln was even offering them more of it if they would just stay in the Union.   

The one non negotiable of the conflict was independence,  not slavery,  therefore slavery wasn't a decisive factor leading to war,  independence was. 





Yes, money was a cold hard factor as always. Yes, there were a multitude of other factors....but the divide over slavery fueled the rancor and drove the division that led to rebellion.


The abolitionists of that time period were considered liberal nuts,  not unlike abortion or homosexual activists nowadays.   If there was rancor over slavery it was because liberal nuts were creating rancor over it. 

Charles Dickens had it right, and he was very ant-slavery. 


Quote
"I take the facts of the American quarrel to stand thus. Slavery has in reality nothing on earth to do with it, in any kind of association with any generous or chivalrous sentiment on the part of the North. But the North having gradually got to itself the making of the laws and the settlement of the tariffs, and having taxed the South most abominably for its own advantage, began to see, as the country grew, that unless it advocated the laying down of a geographical line beyond which slavery should not extend, the South would necessarily recover it's old political power, and be able to help itself a little in the adjustment of the commercial affairs.

Every reasonable creature may know, if willing, that the North hates the Negro, and until it was convenient to make a pretense that sympathy with him was the cause of the War, it hated the Abolitionists and derided them up hill and down dale. For the rest, there's not a pins difference between the two parties. They will both rant and lie and fight until they come to a compromise; and the slave may be thrown into that compromise or thrown out, just as it happens."




  As for Lincoln, without his steadfast devotion to maintaining the Union....and then his drive to abolish slavery...the greatest nation the earth has ever seen would not have risen to greatness, and saved the world from Nazis, Soviets and a host of other existential threats.


A weaker United States would not have intervened in WWI.   Germany would have arrested and imprisoned Lenin instead of transporting him to Russia,  and Germany would have won World War I.
Europe would have become a Union dominated by Germany,  just as it is now.  The German economy would not have crashed in the 1920s,  and therefore a corporal wouldn't be able to blame Germany's misery on Jewish Bankers,  and so he would have never risen to power. 

No Hitler,  No Third Reich,  No World War II,  No Holocaust,  No Japanese Imperialism,  No Soviet Communism in Russia,  No Chinese Communism in China,  about 120 million people wouldn't have been killed in all these bloodbaths,  and you are telling me that we are better off the way things turned out?   


Intervening in World War I was what I regard as a pivot point in history.  A Weaker America likely would not have done it. 





So this meme that "Lincoln killed people over money" is just a simple lie.

It is the simple truth.  The only reason Lincoln opposed the states leaving was because they were making so much money from the European Trade,  and most of his government,  plus the subsidies to the North were being payed for by the South.   

Nobody objected to the fact that slave labor was paying 75-80% of the cost of the Federal government.  They objected to the fact that it was to be stopped.   




If anything, the South seceded over money.


Pretty much.  They would have gotten an instant 100 million dollar per year windfall from getting out from under the tariffs and shipping costs.   This would have capitalized a lot of industry in the South,  and of course, capitalization is synergistic. 


But their reasons for leaving are irrelevant to their right to do so. 



Frankly, money was, is and always has been a factor in every war...but in our civil war, it was not the driving force.


It was exactly the driving force.  Why do you think the first thing Lincoln did was throw up a blockade?  It was to STOP THE EUROPEAN TRADE.   If it wasn't going through New York,  they weren't going to allow any trade to happen. 


Blockade runners easily brought in Guns and military items,  but merchant ships  (you know,  the kind you make money with)  couldn't do it.  The South couldn't ship it's cotton,  and the Europeans couldn't ship their goods.   The Blockade didn't interfere with any military efforts by the South,  it just stopped the commerce and forced all European commerce to go through New York.   




Responsibility for the millions of deaths lies in our nation's inability to resolve the issue of slavery without war.

Slavery wasn't the issue.  It was Independence that was the stakes.  The South wanted it,  the North (four times it's population)  refused to let it have independence.   Abolishing slavery got tacked on more or less at the end of the war both for revenge against the South for having put up such a fight,  and to break the South economically and politically so the South couldn't get revenge back for what the North had done to it.   

Nobody gave a D@mn about the slaves, other than as a political tool.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #720 on: October 20, 2017, 02:02:02 am »
The easy use of the word "tyranny" is disgusting. I've seen real tyranny...people don't get to walk out on the street...or over the airwaves...and spout their opinions as they feel fit under tyranny.



Yes,  Lincoln did that.  He arrested half the legislature of Maryland to keep them from voting to secede.  He arrested people willy nilly for opposing him all throughout the war.   He even issued a warrant to arrest Chief Justice Taney of the Supreme Court.   


The State song of Maryland still refers to him as a Tyrant.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #721 on: October 20, 2017, 02:11:56 am »

The arc of governance always bends towards more control.    What it never does is limit control.   We thought ours did,   but we were mistaken.   Of course some people in the founding era were more perceptive and rightly recognized what might happen. 

From Anti-Federalist paper number 29. 


"Thirdly, the absolute command of Congress over the militia may be destructive of public liberty; for under the guidance of an arbitrary government, they may be made the unwilling instruments of tyranny. The militia of Pennsylvania may be marched to New England or Virginia to quell an insurrection occasioned by the most galling oppression, and aided by the standing army, they will no doubt be successful in subduing their liberty and independency. But in so doing, although the magnanimity of their minds will be extinguished, yet the meaner passions of resentment and revenge will be increased, and these in turn will be the ready and obedient instruments of despotism to enslave the others; and that with an irritated vengeance. Thus may the militia be made the instruments of crushing the last efforts of expiring liberty, of riveting the chains of despotism on their fellow-citizens, and on one another. This power can be exercised not only without violating the Constitution, but in strict conformity with it; it is calculated for this express purpose, and will doubtless be executed accordingly."



Army of Pennsylvania marching into Virginia.   Man oh man did they see that coming!
First they marched into Maryland, along with the Army of Massachusetts to subdue the State. The first KIA of the war were in Baltimore when the population rioted at the invasion, prying up paving stones and hurling them at the invading troops.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #722 on: October 20, 2017, 02:13:57 am »
That's not even in shouting distance of being a fact.

The slavery divide and the march to war began with a series of battles in congress and the huge compromises that were made as new states entered the Union. Over time, the western world and most people in the North grew to deeply oppose slavery...even some in the south felt this way. But the economic value of slavery to the South continued to drive a wedge between the two regions of the nation, and so led eventually to war.


Speak the truth.  The fact is most Northern people HATED blacks.  They did not care that they were forced to labor.  Most Northern people's opposition to slavery was based on their own fears over labor and wages.  They did not want slave labor competing with them for work and wages. 

There were very few people in the North who opposed slavery over moral reasons,  and they were regarded then as Liberal kooks,  not unlike the Liberal kooks we have today. 




So yes, slavery drove the conflict from almost the day the Constitution was first complete...and the division and rancor it created between South and North was the primary cause of the war.



When the Constitution was written,  most of the states were slave states.  There was little rancor when the nation began.   



Just because the 14th amendment was not put forward and Lincoln was willing to tolerate slavery prior to open rebellion...does not change the overarching manner in which slavery drove the nation into war with itself.


Slavery drove the nation into war because it created money and lots of it.  The Robber Barons of New York collaborated with the Deep State of government to maintain control over that flow of money.   At first they tried to reestablish the control they had previously,  but upon seeing that it couldn't be done,  they decided to destroy the system that created the money to keep it out of the hands of people of whom they had made themselves enemies. 


Money.  Power.  Money. Power. Money. Power.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #723 on: October 20, 2017, 02:17:52 am »
First they marched into Maryland, along with the Army of Massachusetts to subdue the State. The first KIA of the war were in Baltimore when the population rioted at the invasion, prying up paving stones and hurling them at the invading troops.

But isn't it amazing that someone back around 1787 could so clearly see what would become the Civil War?   He predicted that Pennsylvania would invade Virginia.

Yes,  Lincoln was having a problem with Maryland,  and so of course he locked up half the legislature and anyone else that objected to his actions.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 20 reasons to join the fight against the Far Left
« Reply #724 on: October 20, 2017, 02:34:35 am »
But isn't it amazing that someone back around 1787 could so clearly see what would become the Civil War?   He predicted that Pennsylvania would invade Virginia.

Yes,  Lincoln was having a problem with Maryland,  and so of course he locked up half the legislature and anyone else that objected to his actions.
It was only the ability to forsee abuse that allowed the Founders to craft an framework that, if studiously adhered to could endure. Unfortunately, the greed of the power brokers in the North found ways to subvert that, and as early as 1830, Calhoun was raising hell over northern railroad bridges which were to cross major rivers at heights too low to permit serious steamboat traffic, rendering the shipping a monopoly.

Habeas Corpus was suspended, the 'detainees' included the grandson of Francis Scott Key (author of the Star Spangled Banner), who was imprisoned, among other places in Fort Mc Henry. Maryland was heavily Southern in sentiment, and spent the war as an occupied State. The Uniion didn't have any qualms about press ganging slaves to move their stuff.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis