Author Topic: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of cafe, goes on vulgar rant — it was all caught on video  (Read 12655 times)

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Offline goatprairie

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From what I've seen of the argument, unless the Jewish cake baker specifies in his advertised schedule of services that he won't do Nazi imagery, then he can be compelled to decorate a cake with a Swastika and the double lightning bolts, too.  If a Muslim walks in the store and wants a cake inscribed with "Die, Jewish Dogs" he'd likewise be forced to produce it, unless also noted in some list of services available.

Makes for quite a long stretch of fine print, no?
"Makes for quite a long stretch of fine print, no?"

In the final analysis, the issue of the Christian baker refusing to bake a homosexual-themed cake is secondary to right of any business to refuse to make something they don't want to make.
If the Christian baker can indeed by law be forced to make a homosexual themed cake against his wishes, no business can be exempt from refusing to make a product some customer asks for.
You only make widgets painted certain colors? You must make me this widget painted this other color. You don't want to make your product with that paint color? Tough, I demand you make it  that color so as not to discriminate against me.
There is no way to prove someone is a hater as courts are determining in ruling against businesses who don't make special products for homosexuals. I'm not  a lawyer, but I've never heard or read of a legal decision being based on an emotion. Of course, now, thanks to leftists, we have hate crimes.  What is a "hate" crime? There is no such thing under the constitution.
 But they do it anyway. It's all unconstitutional, but when has unconstitutionality ever stopped leftists?

Offline goatprairie

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My secondary business is creating custom jewelry for special occasions, mostly weddings.  Its secondary and custom and I don't advertise (although more work would be good), because I don't like dealing with certain personalities and certain designs are offensive enough to me that I don't want to create them.  I've had people really go off on me when I explained that I could not accommodate them.  One or two has threatened to sue me.  My attorney assures me that as long as I keep the business based on agreement between customer and myself as provider they have no standing to sue.  The advertising bit is my own choice.  I suppose the law differs between states to some extent.  My point is that as long as the baker was willing to sell the customer anything in the bakery, he was not discriminating.  The custom cake is an agreement between consumer and provider and any reason will do - including "I don't feel like making it right now".  Otherwise, what limitations are there on the ability of a customer to make a demand on a provider?  Could someone come to me and say "you will make diamond necklaces and earrings for my daughter's wedding, you will provide all the raw materials and labor and you will charge only $100 or I will sue you for discriminating because I'm Hindu."?
"Could someone come to me and say "you will make diamond necklaces and earrings for my daughter's wedding, you will provide all the raw materials and labor and you will charge only $100 or I will sue you for discriminating because I'm Hindu."

That is the crux of the problem. Whatever particular kind of business it is is secondary to the principle of a business having the right to not to make anything they don't want to make.
How can somebody demand a business make a product they don't want to make? I've been upset in the past with certain food companies discontinuing certain brands.  Despite my complaints, the food companies  didn't start making the food products again. Imagine that, they stopped making those particular kinds of food despite my complaints.  Maybe I should have sued for discrimination.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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In other words, some animals are more equal than others.


Non-sequitur.  This case has nothing to do with sexual preference.  This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.


Now that's funny.  You have consistently rejected the political process in favor of the tyranny of black robes.  The political process dictates that Californians get to establish their own marriage laws.  The tyranny of black robes dictates that California does not get to establish their own marriage laws, but must adopt Vermont's instead.

Mr. Jazz really tipped his hand with that "Protected Characteristic," didn't he?  After all these pages of posts, we finally sussed out what it is he wants.  As you said, "Some animals are more equal than others."  He finally had to admit what he wants in this affair is preferential treatment for "protected classes."  Very telling, congrats for noodling that out.

The left will never, ever understand the correct way to eliminate discrimination is to eliminate discrimination.  Too much "Gettinevenism" going on out there, and it's the Left that's doing it.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Jazzhead

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My point is that as long as the baker was willing to sell the customer anything in the bakery, he was not discriminating.


Correct.  Except that the baker wasn't willing to sell a wedding cake for the "wrong" kind of wedding. 

Quote
   The custom cake is an agreement between consumer and provider and any reason will do - including "I don't feel like making it right now".

Almost any reason will do.  Not a reason which amounts to arbitrary discrimination.   The baker is,  for example, within his rights to decline to place a pro-gay message on a cake.  But not to decline to produce any wedding cake whatsoever just because the customers are gay.   His (IMO) fatal error was in showing his customer the door before even having a conversation about what the customer wanted in a  cake.  He can't claim a right to artistic license when it is clear his objection wasn't artistic.     
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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"Could someone come to me and say "you will make diamond necklaces and earrings for my daughter's wedding, you will provide all the raw materials and labor and you will charge only $100 or I will sue you for discriminating because I'm Hindu."

That is the crux of the problem. Whatever particular kind of business it is is secondary to the principle of a business having the right to not to make anything they don't want to make.
How can somebody demand a business make a product they don't want to make? I've been upset in the past with certain food companies discontinuing certain brands.  Despite my complaints, the food companies  didn't start making the food products again. Imagine that, they stopped making those particular kinds of food despite my complaints.  Maybe I should have sued for discrimination.

As many have noted here, what is being demanded of the Baker, the Photographer and others amounts to involuntary servitude, AKA "slavery."  This article shows it's meant to be a one-sided street.  The resident leftist freely admits that as long as he can get a tyrant in black robes to stamp on OK on it, he can force anybody to do anything he wants them too, at the point of a gun if necessary.

One of the Founders said we must exercise eternal vigilance.  Guess who for?
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Jazzhead

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Mr. Jazz really tipped his hand with that "Protected Characteristic," didn't he?  After all these pages of posts, we finally sussed out what it is he wants.  As you said, "Some animals are more equal than others."  He finally had to admit what he wants in this affair is preferential treatment for "protected classes."  Very telling, congrats for noodling that out.


I was asked to describe the state of the law.   I have never been asked my opinion of how I would write the law given a clean slate to do so.   The Trump administration's brief to the Court in support of the baker tries to argue that while race is a recognized protected characteristic,  sexual orientation may not be.  Have they "tipped their hand"?  No, they're merely addressing the state of the law as it exists.       
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Correct.  Except that the baker wasn't willing to sell a wedding cake for the "wrong" kind of wedding. 

Almost any reason will do.  Not a reason which amounts to arbitrary discrimination.   The baker is,  for example, within his rights to decline to place a pro-gay message on a cake.  But not to decline to produce any wedding cake whatsoever just because the customers are gay.   His (IMO) fatal error was in showing his customer the door before even having a conversation about what the customer wanted in a  cake.  He can't claim a right to artistic license when it is clear his objection wasn't artistic.   

Your "reasonable sounding" exception to the rule of free association goes out the window when declarations of "illegal discrimination" can be manufactured out of whole cloth.  In the case of the Baker of Cakes, it's obvious to all but you he was targeted by the Lavender Mafia to destroy him and make an example, even if they have to make up a reason to do it.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Jazzhead

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As many have noted here, what is being demanded of the Baker, the Photographer and others amounts to involuntary servitude, AKA "slavery." 

What utter nonsense.   The storeowner can decide what he will sell and not sell.   He just can't unlawfully discriminate with respect to his customers.   Do you seriously believe that  a law prohibiting all-white lunch counters amounts to "slavery"?   
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Offline Jazzhead

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In the case of the Baker of Cakes, it's obvious to all but you he was targeted by the Lavender Mafia to destroy him and make an example, even if they have to make up a reason to do it.

People are allowed to stand up for their rights, you know.  If he's destroyed his business, it was because of his own stubborn actions.   
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Online Hoodat

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The baker is,  for example, within his rights to decline to place a pro-gay message on a cake.  But not to decline to produce any wedding cake whatsoever just because the customers are gay. 

Of course that's not what happened.  At no time did the customers announce their sexual preference.  The following day, a woman who is heterosexual also requested said cake.  She was also told that such a cake was simply not offered at that bakery.  Yet here you are once again lying about what happened.


His (IMO) fatal error was in showing his customer the door before even having a conversation about what the customer wanted in a  cake.

That part didn't matter.  The customer was inquiring about a cake the baker did not make.   It wouldn't matter how they wanted it decorated.


He can't claim a right to artistic license when it is clear his objection wasn't artistic.   

But he isn't claiming a right to artistic license.  You made it up.  (See:  Logical falacies - Strawman)
Again, you are purposely giving a false portrayal of events.  And you do so knowing full well that your account is false.  That makes you a liar.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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What utter nonsense.   The storeowner can decide what he will sell and not sell.   He just can't unlawfully discriminate with respect to his customers.   Do you seriously believe that  a law prohibiting all-white lunch counters amounts to "slavery"?   

An irrelevant comparison, that was about an immutable characteristic to protect, skin color.  This is about a behavior.  "Gaydar" is a myth, one cannot be determined to be "gay" by looking at one, it must be self-professed.  And, as time has shown, making such discrimination punishable as a criminal offense was a mistake because it's lead to tyrannical overreach by the left.  Look at the pretzel logic you must employ to force others to comply with your wishes.  You may or may not be a lawyer, but you sure think like one.

They should have used your preferred method to stop the million or so baby murders every year.  Gentle persuasion.  I'll bet a stack of wedding cakes you think that's insufficient for the cause at hand.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Online Hoodat

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What utter nonsense.   The storeowner can decide what he will sell and not sell.

That has been my point since Day One.


He just can't unlawfully discriminate with respect to his customers. 

Yet he didn't discriminate with respect to his customers.  Both heterosexual and homosexual customers got the same identical treatment.  But then you knew that already.  Yet here you are once again lying about it.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Cyber Liberty

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People are allowed to stand up for their rights, you know.  If he's destroyed his business, it was because of his own stubborn actions.

Their rights to enslave another.  Gotchyer number right here.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Hoodat

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"Gaydar" is a myth, one cannot be determined to be "gay" by looking at one, it must be self-professed.

Please forgive Jazzhead for his bigoted assumptions.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Cyber Liberty

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That has been my point since Day One.


Yet he didn't discriminate with respect to his customers.  Both heterosexual and homosexual customers got the same identical treatment.  But then you knew that already.  Yet here you are once again lying about it.

It's pretty obvious the Left will create a reason to cry "Oppression" at every turn, even if they have to make it up out of whole cloth.  That is what we're seeing done here, right before our eyes.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Please forgive Jazzhead for his bigoted assumptions.

No.  Not as long as he uses his bigoted assumptions to beat innocent people about the head and shoulders.  22222frying pan
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline roamer_1

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Do you seriously believe that  a law prohibiting all-white lunch counters amounts to "slavery"?   

Inevitably, YES - As we are seeing today. If you are not free to refuse service, then you are not free.

Offline HoustonSam

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Do you seriously believe that  a law prohibiting all-white lunch counters amounts to "slavery"?   

Poorly-chosen example, completely irrelevant to the case being discussed.  If a hypothetical lunch counter were owned by an orthodox Jew who refused to prepare non-kosher food for either black or white customers, would you consider him bigoted against one or the other?

The bakery owner in no sense refused to do business with homosexuals.  He refused a specific request from both homosexuals and heterosexuals.  References to unrelated conditions from 60 years ago are simply undisciplined thinking.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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His problem, though, is that the case law was settled long ago that a restaurant owner could not cite religious beliefs in refusing to serve blacks.   His claim to discriminate on the basis of his religious beliefs is not going to fly -  he can only do what he's already said he's done on his website - decline to provide custom wedding cakes to anyone. 

He can only prevail on the basis of his status as an "artist" - but here,  just as you said, he took the position he wasn't going to create any sort of cake for these folks to celebrate their wedding.   As a public accommodation that advertises wedding cakes, he can't do that.  What he could have done was reject a message proposed for the cake.
If you are Black, you were born with those genetics. Kindly don't insult us by trying to conflate deviant behaviour with an inherently genetic attribute. If there was a "homosexuality gene" we would certainly have heard about it by now, because that would validate the baseless claim that homosexuals are "born that way".

What religion discriminates against someone on the basis of skin color? (none, and especially not Christianity)

What a tired little strawman that is.

There IS, however, a solid religious basis for not participating in any way in the (for want of a better word) abomination that is a celebration of homosexual acts, and the artistic effort of creating something to commemorate that can certainly be refused on a religious basis. As I asked you before (but you did not reply) Would you force a Jewish baker to bake a birthday cake for Adolf Hitler? (There are some people who celebrate that). Would you force a Muslim butcher to sell pork chops?

You can't act as if religious objections are trivial. People have been excused from bearing arms in the defense of this country in wartime after having been conscripted because of religious beliefs. So kindly quit trivializing the relationship between people and their God--a relationship people have died for, and in defense of--a relationship that will last far longer than the government will have jurisdiction over anything.

The clause "...nor prohibit the free exercise thereof." applies. Any law which regulates any aspect of religious practice has to pass the strict scrutiny standard:
Quote
To pass strict scrutiny, the law or policy must satisfy three tests:

    It must be justified by a compelling governmental interest. While the Courts have never brightly defined how to determine if an interest is compelling, the concept generally refers to something necessary or crucial, as opposed to something merely preferred. Examples include national security, preserving the lives of a large number of individuals, and not violating explicit constitutional protections.
    The law or policy must be narrowly tailored to achieve that goal or interest. If the government action encompasses too much (overbroad) or fails to address essential aspects of the compelling interest, then the rule is not considered narrowly tailored.
    The law or policy must be the least restrictive means for achieving that interest: there must not be a less restrictive way to effectively achieve the compelling government interest. The test will be met even if there is another method that is equally the least restrictive. Some legal scholars consider this "least restrictive means" requirement part of being narrowly tailored, but the Court generally evaluates it separately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

In this case there is no compelling national interest in forcing one baker to bake create a cake celebrating a union that is proscribed in the strongest terms by his religion.

(If you don't think such cakes involve artistic creation watch a couple of seasons of "Cake Boss".)

The Colorado decision should be overturned, and artistic license returned to the artists involved.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LateForLunch

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Poorly-chosen example, completely irrelevant to the case being discussed.  If a hypothetical lunch counter were owned by an orthodox Jew who refused to prepare non-kosher food for either black or white customers, would you consider him bigoted against one or the other?

The bakery owner in no sense refused to do business with homosexuals.  He refused a specific request from both homosexuals and heterosexuals.  References to unrelated conditions from 60 years ago are simply undisciplined thinking.

The root issue is how far may the government use of force extend into the private sector to compel compliance with societal norms?

For leftists, the answer is "as far as necessary" and for conservatives and other normal people the answer is "as far as necessary within reason".

For far leftists it is obvious that even when there are other means available for people to obtain products or services, the application of government force is the preferred option.

So this is a matter of demarcating the extent of government power. It is clear that leftists never encountered a circumstance where an individual's rights were more important that the government's or societies rights to compel conformity. If leftists were honest, they would admit that they believe that any conflict between an individual and some legalism should result in the individual's loss of freedom or liberty. 

One view seeks to enlarge the power of the state and authoritarianism to impose any and all collective preferences upon individuals. The other prefers that people seek remedy for conflict or deprivation through means not involving government force.

The entire substance of this long thread may be distilled into that basic argument. Jazzhead behaves like an advocate because he IS an advocate. In his view, clearly there should be virtually no limits on the employment of government power to compel collective obedience.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 07:45:01 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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People are allowed to stand up for their rights, you know. If he's destroyed his business, it was because of his own stubborn actions.
Back at you. The baker's relationship with his God will last longer than all else being discussed. If his business is the price of maintaining that relationship, that is a sacrifice he is willing to make.

But the bottom line, is that that relationship with his God is protected under the First Amendment and he should not have to lose his business either.

No artist should be compelled to create that which they find to be abhorrent, for any reason.

Again, if you don't think there is any art involved, there, Betty Crocker, watch Cake Boss.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Jazzhead behaves like an advocate because he IS an advocate. In his view, clearly there should be virtually no limits on the employment of government power to compel collective obedience.

I think it should be clear to the reasonable reader that this statement is untrue.   In the case of the baker,  I've said more than once that his religious scruples can and should permit him to reject a pro-gay message on a cake.   He can also choose what services he will provide to the general public - just as a Jewish butcher can restrict his menu to kosher products.   What he cannot do - as a public accommodation - is advertise services to the general public and then arbitrarily deny such services to certain customers because of who they are.    The community through the political process determines the scope of anti-discrimination protection.  My state, for example, proscribes discrimination on the basis of race but not on the basis of sexual orientation.   Finally, many kinds of business owners can decide to structure their businesses so that they are not "public accommodations" subject to these kinds of laws; e.g., by agreeing to contract on an individualized basis rather than by offering a menu of services generally to the public.

Let's be fair, sir - the foregoing hardly constitutes my support for "virtually no limits on the employment of government power to compel collective obedience."
 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 07:59:29 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline LateForLunch

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I think it should be clear to the reasonable reader that this statement is untrue.   In the case of the baker,  I've said more than once that his religious scruples can and should permit him to reject a pro-gay message on a cake.   He can also choose what services he will provide to the general public - just as a Jewish butcher can restrict his menu to kosher products.   What he cannot do - as a public accommodation - is advertise services to the general public and then arbitrarily deny such services to certain customers because of who they are.    The community through the political process determines the scope of anti-discrimination protection.  My state, for example, proscribes discrimination on the basis of race but not on the basis of sexual orientation.   Finally, many kinds of business owners can decide to structure their businesses so that they are not "public accommodations" subject to these kinds of laws; e.g., by agreeing to contract on an individualized basis rather than by offering a menu of services generally to the public.

Let's be fair, sir - the foregoing hardly constitutes my support for "virtually no limits on the employment of government power to compel collective obedience."
 

Yet all you speak of siuer, is how the use of government force may be justifiably applied in this case, without any consideration whatsoever of any other conceivable amelioration outside the application of government force. Help me to understand.

Your assertion that you are not acting out of advocacy seems (forgive me) disingenuous to be mild.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 08:09:39 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline HoustonSam

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What he cannot do - as public accommodation - is advertise services to the general public and then arbitrarily deny such services to certain customers because of who they are.   

The baker in question did not arbitrarily deny services to anyone because of who they are.  He refused a specific service to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.  No evidence has been presented in this thread that he treated homosexuals any differently from heterosexuals.
James 1:20

Offline RoosGirl

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