Author Topic: General Motors Is Going All Electric  (Read 3273 times)

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Offline DB

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 06:18:52 am »
Are talking about oil leases on federal land?

The federal gas tax takes in about triple that.

And what does that have to do with taxpayers paying for electric car subsidies?

Essentially those who buy gas are paying for federal roads while those who buy electric cars don't pay for the federal roads while at the same time getting their luxury car subsidized by the average tax payer.

And you think that is proper?

Offline DB

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 06:22:54 am »
The leases generated about 13 billion in royalty revenue the producers netted about 70 billion...

The Feds get less for a lease than a private land owner due to the efforts of the oil company's K Street lobbyists ....hmmm crony capitalist thieves :shrug:

Well hell then, lets all get subsidies for everything...

@Smokin Joe

Offline montanajoe

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 06:30:15 am »
My point is that most of the opposition to electrics on the right is due to economics. People don't want to lose their jobs in the oil industry and they see electrics as a threat to their economic security. I don't have a problem with that I've made a few bucks in the oil patch myself.

I just find most of the arguments against electrics are based on that economic fear and not fact.. :shrug:

Offline DB

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2017, 06:41:48 am »
My point is that most of the opposition to electrics on the right is due to economics. People don't want to lose their jobs in the oil industry and they see electrics as a threat to their economic security. I don't have a problem with that I've made a few bucks in the oil patch myself.

I just find most of the arguments against electrics are based on that economic fear and not fact.. :shrug:

Economics of fear?

Cut the subsidies and sell their product like any other. The same goes for solar electric systems. Then I'd be all for it. Eventually electric cars will win in the market place because they stand on their own. Right now they stand on the taxpayer whether I buy one or not. The truth is everyone who pays taxes is subsiding wealthy peoples nice toys.

Musk uses public money to guarantee his loans where if it goes wrong the taxpayer lose and if it goes well he wins. Then on top of that virtually all of his businesses are based on government subsidies to make them viable economically.

That's crony capitalism on steroids.



Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 06:59:38 am »
I think much of the opposition to electrics  on the right is naturally based on those in the petro-chemical industry fearing a loss of jobs. The industry is what supports the economy of much of America, particularly fly over country.

Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on an affordable electric vehicle, the performance curve is as they say awesome.

As is often pointed out, there is not enough generating capacity presently to support a conversion to electrics but it seems to me a conversion to electrics doesn't mean the demise of the oil industry and its vital jobs the industry will just need to retool. Energy is energy
No, actually, although I have spent most of my adult life in the oil industry. I live in a place where there are often miles between houses. Where the wind blows, snow drifts, and I have seen temperatures as low as -60 and windchills that calculated at -146 F. Batteries don't work very well in such weather and that is when you will need them the most. It IS a matter of life and death, quite literally. Now, while temps in the -20 to -30 range are more ordinary winter fare, it is 129 miles to the next major town (five figure population) in two directions, farther if one heads west, and nothing between here and Canada to the north. THere are no gas and go stations every five miles, even, and walking in that weather is a death sentence.

In other words, unless and until these systems can maintain cabin temperature, maintain sufficient charge while sitting and not hooked up to a charger in that weather to not only get me there and back while running the heater and lights (because there is only 8 hours of daylight in the dead of winter), but have enough of a reserve to keep me alive (from freezing to death) if I get stuck, these things are just a deathtrap. Add in that the battery pack has a shelf/charge cycle life that is far inferior to the internal combustion engines I own, and it's a non-starter.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 07:05:51 am »
Well hell then, lets all get subsidies for everything...

@Smokin Joe
I'm not so sure K street can stop those bids at auction from going high as people think is needed to secure them. Those lease blocks are auctioned, not sold outright. Last I heard, the royalty rates were competitive, too.

What holds the price of Federal Leases down, if anything, are the miasma of regulations that have to be navigated to run seismic, build a location, an access road, drill, put a well into production, and run infrastructure to get the product out of there to gas plants and refineries so it can be marketed as finished products--and not knowing if the rules are going to change after you have invested millions (or tens of millions) to prevent you even spudding a well.

At least with a private lease, you can close the deal and proceed.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2017, 07:08:42 am »
I'm not so sure K street can stop those bids at auction from going high as people think is needed to secure them. Those lease blocks are auctioned, not sold outright. Last I heard, the royalty rates were competitive, too.

What holds the price of Federal Leases down, if anything, are the miasma of regulations that have to be navigated to run seismic, build a location, an access road, drill, put a well into production, and run infrastructure to get the product out of there to gas plants and refineries so it can be marketed as finished products--and not knowing if the rules are going to change after you have invested millions (or tens of millions) to prevent you even spudding a well.

At least with a private lease, you can close the deal and proceed.

Thank you for the info. I pinged you because you are the resident expert on oil production.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2017, 07:14:13 am »
No, actually, although I have spent most of my adult life in the oil industry. I live in a place where there are often miles between houses. Where the wind blows, snow drifts, and I have seen temperatures as low as -60 and windchills that calculated at -146 F. Batteries don't work very well in such weather and that is when you will need them the most. It IS a matter of life and death, quite literally. Now, while temps in the -20 to -30 range are more ordinary winter fare, it is 129 miles to the next major town (five figure population) in two directions, farther if one heads west, and nothing between here and Canada to the north. THere are no gas and go stations every five miles, even, and walking in that weather is a death sentence.

In other words, unless and until these systems can maintain cabin temperature, maintain sufficient charge while sitting and not hooked up to a charger in that weather to not only get me there and back while running the heater and lights (because there is only 8 hours of daylight in the dead of winter), but have enough of a reserve to keep me alive (from freezing to death) if I get stuck, these things are just a deathtrap. Add in that the battery pack has a shelf/charge cycle life that is far inferior to the internal combustion engines I own, and it's a non-starter.

It gets a bit nippy in my neck of the woods also :laugh:

There are certainly places in the country where electrics won't be a viable option for a long time but face it we don't live where the majority of the folks in the country live. For most in a metro area a electric will do just fine. The challenge in my mind is where the electricity well come from, I have little doubt that big oil will be at the forefront of making that energy available... :shrug:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2017, 07:22:32 am »
It gets a bit nippy in my neck of the woods also :laugh:

There are certainly places in the country where electrics won't be a viable option for a long time but face it we don't live where the majority of the folks in the country live. For most in a metro area a electric will do just fine. The challenge in my mind is where the electricity well come from, I have little doubt that big oil will be at the forefront of making that energy available... :shrug:
The problem is that the people who will be requiring the electrics (and they will go there) don't live out here, and what's more, they can't conceive of standing outside and taking a leak and having it freeze before it hits the ground.

It was the same people pushing the electrics who did away with a lot of baseload generation powered by coal, mainly with moving target regulations.

Eventually, America will get fat and slack and those people will be back in power.
In the meantime, it will take a lot of natural gas to power America, and that means drilling a lot of wells.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 07:23:24 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline goatprairie

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2017, 08:48:06 am »
And that is exactly what the Green Marxists want.
They hate cars because they hate suburbia and freedom.  Freedom from big city leftist pols who would tell them how to live their lives.  The leftist  nuts want all citizens congregated i.e. sardined together in megalopolises unable to easily travel outside their environs.
There are numerous articles about the joys of living in big cities written by leftist, would-be totalitarians who really believe we'd all be much happier smushed together in tiny apartment buildings in huge cities having to walk, bike, or take some other form of non-personal vehicle  to get around.....that is get around inside designated living zones.  Going out of the city would be reserved for special types i.e. our Marxist rulers.
Leftists hate cars because they hate people being free and independent of the mob.  Having a car means you can get away from leftist-controlled areas i.e. big cities.  They can't have that...you must lose your car.

Offline thackney

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2017, 09:20:34 pm »
An EV motor has an efficiency of 90%+ an internal combustion engine 35%...I'm sure you are capable of doing the math.

Electrics are the future, they may not be there yet but that day will come. The oil industry will adjust and retool, there will still be old farts with our ancient F-250's paying ten bucks a gallon but I'll also have one of those EV's capable of running the socks off it...

@montanajoe What do you think the fuel efficiency is when you take into account the whole fuel to road system required to make the car move?

40% Power plant efficiency x 93% transmission efficiency x 92% charger efficiency x 94% battery efficiency x 92% rectifier efficiency x 90% motor efficiency - the bleed off power for Heat or Air Conditioning.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 02:08:28 am »
The leases generated about 13 billion in royalty revenue the producers netted about 70 billion...

The Feds get less for a lease than a private land owner due to the efforts of the oil company's K Street lobbyists ....hmmm crony capitalist thieves :shrug:
What is your point here?  That a mineral owner gets screwed?  Do you have any experience in dealing with the nuts and bolts of the oil and gas industry?

I do, after +40 years as an economist.  Let me know what you think you know about how bad a mineral owner is treated compared to an operator which deploys the capital and undertakes the risk and I can certainly reply to you appropriately. @montanajoe
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 02:23:09 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: General Motors Is Going All Electric
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2017, 02:12:28 am »
My point is that most of the opposition to electrics on the right is due to economics. People don't want to lose their jobs in the oil industry and they see electrics as a threat to their economic security. I don't have a problem with that I've made a few bucks in the oil patch myself.

I just find most of the arguments against electrics are based on that economic fear and not fact.. :shrug:
Just how is the economics you mentioned part of this?  I am interested in knowing what you understand is economics.

Electrics have a small place in this world.  In certain situations, they can be less noisy, less pollutive within the community in which they are used, such as a major city.  Almost any other place, they cannot EVER compete with an internal combustion engine in power, in longevity, in comfort, and most importantly, in COST and ECONOMICS. @montanajoe
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 02:23:33 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington