The two senators who will likely decide fate of ObamaCare repeal

[txradioguy]

@Jazzhead
What you're for is to have the government take money from other people and give it to your sister.  If she's getting money then why can't she go look at the open market and get some insurance that isn't through O-care?  They are out there.

Graham-Cassidy will let the Republicans claim victory without actually doing anything.

Exactly.  Well said.

[Sanguine]

@Jazzhead
What you're for is to have the government take money from other people and give it to your sister.  If she's getting money then why can't she go look at the open market and get some insurance that isn't through O-care?  They are out there.

Graham-Cassidy will let the Republicans claim victory without actually doing anything.

Yes, that bears repeating.

[roamer_1]

This is our last, best hope, folks.    I wish Rand Paul would gain some perspective at what's at stake.   

Indeed, Rand Paul is the only one standing that DOES have a proper perspective.

[roamer_1]

I'm for Graham-Cassidy as a step in the right direction;  you, by opposing it in the name of ideological purity,  effectively support the status quo.   

Exactly wrong. Obamacare is failing of it's own weight. Let it fail.
Then the fight will be truly and squarely over a return to a free market v. a single-payer system, rather than this paltry infusion that is Graham-Cassidy.

It is YOU that is preserving the status quo.

[Applewood]

Well, this all might be moot.  McCain has indicated he will vote "No."  So I guess there won't be enough votes to pass this sham.

[Cyber Liberty]

Well, this all might be moot.  McCain has indicated he will vote "No."  So I guess there won't be enough votes to pass this sham.

Yeah, I just saw that.  Well, however one feels about him, we can all say, "Thanks Honest John."

 

[Jazzhead]

Exactly wrong. Obamacare is failing of it's own weight. Let it fail.
Then the fight will be truly and squarely over a return to a free market v. a single-payer system, rather than this paltry infusion that is Graham-Cassidy.

It is YOU that is preserving the status quo.

You're living in Cloudcuckooland, of course.  The Congress and the President won't allow O-Care to "fall of its own weight".  Millions of people will be harmed -  and most are voters.   If this bill fails, the President has indicated he'll work with centrists from both parties to prevent that harm, and I for one will support him in that effort.

This is put-up or shut-up time for Republicans and conservatives.  Pass something that moves the ball,  but if their intransigence leaves us all with the status quo,  they will be tossed over the side.   O-Care should not, and will not, be allowed to just "fail".   Tens of millions of lives, not to mention the fate of the private insurance industry, are in the balance.   I support the goals of conservatives,  but I draw the line with this obsession with blood sport.     

[roamer_1]

You're living in Cloudcuckooland, of course.  The Congress and the President won't allow O-Care to "fall of its own weight".  Millions of people will be harmed -  and most are voters.   If this bill fails, the President has indicated he'll work with centrists from both parties to prevent that harm, and I for one will support him in that effort.

And you will be wrong to do so. The damage wrought in accepting that government should take over nearly one fifth of our open market is where the blood-sport lies. If you think they'll srop there, you've another think coming.

This is put-up or shut-up time for Republicans and conservatives.  Pass something that moves the ball,  but if their intransigence leaves us all with the status quo,  they will be tossed over the side.   O-Care should not, and will not, be allowed to just "fail".   Tens of millions of lives, not to mention the fate of the private insurance industry, are in the balance.   I support the goals of conservatives,  but I draw the line with this obsession with blood sport.   

I will stand upon the Constitution, and the principles of Conservatism. I can and will do no other.

Those who offer pragmatism have brought us where we are, and one thing is sure - More pragmatism is bound to send us further down the hole.

Somebody had better start drawing some hard damn lines.

[Emjay]

Exactly wrong. Obamacare is failing of it's own weight. Let it fail.
Then the fight will be truly and squarely over a return to a free market v. a single-payer system, rather than this paltry infusion that is Graham-Cassidy.

It is YOU that is preserving the status quo.

Please, people, explain to me how Obamacare is falling of its own weight.  It was a disaster from the start but ... IT'S STILL HERE and I don't see it failing.  It will fail when it no longer exists.

And I'm tired of people saying that if we chip away at it, we are making it worse.

We are not.  We are chipping away at it.

[roamer_1]

Please, people, explain to me how Obamacare is falling of its own weight.  It was a disaster from the start but ... IT'S STILL HERE and I don't see it failing.  It will fail when it no longer exists.

And I'm tired of people saying that if we chip away at it, we are making it worse.

We are not.  We are chipping away at it.

Many states no longer offer obamacare plans - the major insurers having pulled out. Many states have but one choice. The law is worthless, without veracity, where it's demands cannot be met.
It will fail, and fail big. It already is failing big.

That will mean many people losing coverage, but that is already the case, as the coverage provided costs more than the actual services do out of pocket. And the more it fails, the more it costs. It is literally pricing itself out of the market, and at a quickening pace.

It will come to a point, very soon, that there will be no alternative but to repeal it, or write new law to convert the mess to single payer. That is where the rubber hits the road. And that will be very close to mid term elections, and hopefully (quite predictably), 'a throw the bastards out' campaign.

Let it die the cruel death it deserves.

[Cyber Liberty]

This battle over Obastardcare serves to illustrate a very important point about why we must resist becoming a "Democracy."

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

"Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

The quote, which origins are in dispute, is often believed to be from Alexander Tytler.  Here is a pretty good column about it.

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

Regardless of its pedigree, the quote holds true.  The entire battle is over the crowds keeping hold of their Gibsmedats, and getting them to relinquish their ill-gotten goods is damned near impossible without a war..  Here's another quote, which pedigree is not in dispute:

“Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”
― Frédéric Bastiat

[Cyber Liberty]

Many states no longer offer obamacare plans - the major insurers having pulled out. Many states have but one choice. The law is worthless, without veracity, where it's demands cannot be met.
It will fail, and fail big. It already is failing big.

That will mean many people losing coverage, but that is already the case, as the coverage provided costs more than the actual services do out of pocket. And the more it fails, the more it costs. It is literally pricing itself out of the market, and at a quickening pace.

It will come to a point, very soon, that there will be no alternative but to repeal it, or write new law to convert the mess to single payer. That is where the rubber hits the road. And that will be very close to mid term elections, and hopefully (quite predictably), 'a throw the bastards out' campaign.

Let it die the cruel death it deserves.

I just hope it collapses before wiping out the insurers.

[Sanguine]

I just hope it collapses before wiping out the insurers.

Those who are left.

[roamer_1]

I just hope it collapses before wiping out the insurers.

Nah. They are distributed. All of them do other types of insurance, and they own most of the health care infrastructure (which is another part of the problem). Their pulling out of the market just means they'll beef up their other concerns.

[roamer_1]

I just hope it collapses before wiping out the insurers.

And btw, I wouldn't lose any sleep if it did - I think insurance to be a big part of the cost of health care. without insurance in the market, the cost of services might well adjust downward dramatically.

[jmyrlefuller]

Many states no longer offer obamacare plans - the major insurers having pulled out. Many states have but one choice. The law is worthless, without veracity, where it's demands cannot be met.
It will fail, and fail big. It already is failing big.

That will mean many people losing coverage, but that is already the case, as the coverage provided costs more than the actual services do out of pocket. And the more it fails, the more it costs. It is literally pricing itself out of the market, and at a quickening pace.

It will come to a point, very soon, that there will be no alternative but to repeal it, or write new law to convert the mess to single payer. That is where the rubber hits the road. And that will be very close to mid term elections, and hopefully (quite predictably), 'a throw the bastards out' campaign.

Let it die the cruel death it deserves.

Dream on. It will simply become another Alternative Minimum Tax: once no insurance options are available, the mandates kick in for more and more people and it becomes a source of revenue for Uncle Sam.

Let me repeat this once again: no government program ever dies on its own accord. Waiting for Obamcare to collapse as if some epiphany moment will hit Congress compelling them to act is like waiting for Godot.

Heck, we already see now how quickly these things become entrenched. If Romney and a GOP Senate had been elected in 2012, this whole mess would have been repealed much more quickly.

[Jazzhead]

Let it die the cruel death it deserves.

And to hell with the people harmed by such a collapse, I guess.  Your attitude is disgusting - but thankfully the President won't let it happen, because he cares about working folks more than you do. 

[roamer_1]

And to hell with the people harmed by such a collapse, I guess.  Your attitude is disgusting - but thankfully the President won't let it happen, because he cares about working folks more than you do.

As compared to the hell brought forth by it's inception? I know NO ONE who still has coverage, except those covered by medicaid and medicare. Everyone I know (to include my entire family), all of whom had reasonable insurance before the fact, now run without, or are turning to alternatives like Christian Brotherhood plans.

It doesn't come up often, and I am by no means inquiring, but in every single case where it has come up, it is in the context of costing too much and having to forego coverage.

It is not uncommon for folks to be expected to cover THREE TIMES their mortgage payment, and more, for coverage with so high a deductible that they will never ever use it.

So a pox on your statement. Everyone I know is working class and entrepreneurial. This crap is destroying people by it's very existence. *SPIT*

[Cyber Liberty]

And to hell with the people harmed by such a collapse, I guess.  Your attitude is disgusting - but thankfully the President won't let it happen, because he cares about working folks more than you do.

Please scroll up a little and read my Frédéric Bastiat quote.  Guess who I was thinking of when I looked that up.

[Cyber Liberty]

As compared to the hell brought forth by it's inception? I know NO ONE who still has coverage, except those covered by medicaid and medicare. Everyone I know (to include my entire family), all of whom had reasonable insurance before the fact, now run without, or are turning to alternatives like Christian Brotherhood plans.

It doesn't come up often, and I am by no means inquiring, but in every single case where it has come up, it is in the context of costing too much and having to forego coverage.

It is not uncommon for folks to be expected to cover THREE TIMES their mortgage payment, and more, for coverage with so high a deductible that they will never ever use it.

So a pox on your statement. Everyone I know is working class and entrepreneurial. This crap is destroying people by it's very existence. *SPIT*

He complains bitterly when he thinks people say mean things about him, but look how he tosses about the insults like manhole covers.

[roamer_1]

Dream on. It will simply become another Alternative Minimum Tax: once no insurance options are available, the mandates kick in for more and more people and it becomes a source of revenue for Uncle Sam.

Let me repeat this once again: no government program ever dies on its own accord. Waiting for Obamcare to collapse as if some epiphany moment will hit Congress compelling them to act is like waiting for Godot.

Heck, we already see now how quickly these things become entrenched. If Romney and a GOP Senate had been elected in 2012, this whole mess would have been repealed much more quickly.

So now that it's here, we just have to live with it and hope for the best? Bullshit.
It lives because it has no opposition. The bare fact and cause of pragmatists and their unprincipled way.

Demand that opposition and it will leave, straightaway. But that means voting for the 'purists' who stand upon the principles the nation was founded upon, and upon whom your very liberty rests.

[Cyber Liberty]

So now that it's here, we just have to live with it and hope for the best? Bullshit.
It lives because it has no opposition. The bare fact and cause of pragmatists and their unprincipled way.

Demand that opposition and it will leave, straightaway. But that means voting for the 'purists' who stand upon the principles the nation was founded upon, and upon whom your very liberty rests.

It lives because the Gibsmedats won't give up their filthy lucre, and will scream "Heartless" to keep it.  Witness our friend above, notice how his go-to argument is "you are a heartless devil."

[Emjay]

Many states no longer offer obamacare plans - the major insurers having pulled out. Many states have but one choice. The law is worthless, without veracity, where it's demands cannot be met.
It will fail, and fail big. It already is failing big.

That will mean many people losing coverage, but that is already the case, as the coverage provided costs more than the actual services do out of pocket. And the more it fails, the more it costs. It is literally pricing itself out of the market, and at a quickening pace.

It will come to a point, very soon, that there will be no alternative but to repeal it, or write new law to convert the mess to single payer. That is where the rubber hits the road. And that will be very close to mid term elections, and hopefully (quite predictably), 'a throw the bastards out' campaign.

Let it die the cruel death it deserves.

Amen to all that you said.  And if I believed that this would happen within the next year or two even, I would be willing to forego any intended improvement that this new bill will give us.

I wish with all my heart that I could believe it.

[Cyber Liberty]

And to hell with the people harmed by such a collapse, I guess.  Your attitude is disgusting - but thankfully the President won't let it happen, because he cares about working folks more than you do.

I'm putting this up in bold so everybody can see what a demagogue looks like, and as a reminder of why setting things right after a world-class destructor like Obama is almost impossible.

[roamer_1]

It lives because the Gibsmedats won't give up their filthy lucre, and will scream "Heartless" to keep it.  Witness our friend above, notice how his go-to argument is "you are a heartless devil."

Of course.