Author Topic: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)  (Read 7146 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2017, 03:42:20 pm »
@Sanguine
Good grief.

This is an attempt to overthrow a President the establishment doesn't like.   Even IF Manafort is dirty his crimes wouldn't come close to those of Obama and Hillary.  Not even a shadow of the crimes we know they committed.

Yet you folks are silent about prosecuting them.   Silence speaks loudly.

You misread my statement. 

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2017, 03:56:16 pm »
But then they picked it up again in 2014 because of who he was associating with...a full two years before he signed on with Trump.

 *****rollingeyes*****
There was mention made of Manafort's Russian connections, even before the election. This should come as no surprise except to the people who were running around with their fingers in their ears repeatedly shouting "la" when others tried to bring up Manafort's past.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2017, 04:01:41 pm »
There was mention made of Manafort's Russian connections, even before the election. This should come as no surprise except to the people who were running around with their fingers in their ears repeatedly shouting "la" when others tried to bring up Manafort's past.

True, but remember all the major figures in last years election, in both parties and including both candidates, were involved with Russia in some way. It wasn't clear then that Russian involvement would be the tact the democrats and media would use to deligitimize the administration.

Not making excuses, but providing a little perspective.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2017, 04:05:27 pm »
True, but remember all the major figures in last years election, in both parties and including both candidates, were involved with Russia in some way. It wasn't clear then that Russian involvement would be the tact the democrats and media would use to deligitimize the administration.

Not making excuses, but providing a little perspective.

I agree with that.

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2017, 04:06:07 pm »
There was mention made of Manafort's Russian connections, even before the election. This should come as no surprise except to the people who were running around with their fingers in their ears repeatedly shouting "la" when others tried to bring up Manafort's past.

:thumbsup:

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2017, 04:08:05 pm »
:thumbsup:

Hey anything to delay or stop any potentially conservative laws or actions.   Thats all that really matters right.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2017, 04:09:34 pm »
That was one of the campaign promises I was really hoping he'd go through with.  Sadly it was one of the first he went back on.
Yeah, the handprint on the book hadn't cooled from the oath before he was stepping away from prosecuting a former donation recipient. Makes you wonder if there wasn't some 'pay for play' that could swing back at someone. Oh, wait, that's just how business is done there. Noo Yawk Values and all that.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline jpsb

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2017, 04:14:35 pm »
Hey anything to delay or stop any potentially conservative laws or actions.   Thats all that really matters right.

Curious what Crime is Mueller investigating?

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2017, 04:18:50 pm »
Curious what Crime is Mueller investigating?

@jpsb
The crime of not bowing to the establishment is my guess.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2017, 04:24:25 pm »
Curious what Crime is Mueller investigating?

I think we would all like to see that answer.

Offline Concerned

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2017, 04:46:25 pm »
Curious what Crime is Mueller investigating?

I think he's investigating "Russian government efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election" (this right out of the Ron Rosenstein memo announcing the appointment of Mueller).  Specifically relative to Manafort, CNN noted the following about the most recent warrant (the article also lays out much of the background about what about Manafort is being investigated):

"Sources say the second warrant was part of the FBI's efforts to investigate ties between Trump campaign associates and suspected Russian operatives. Such warrants require the approval of top Justice Department and FBI officials, and the FBI must provide the court with information showing suspicion that the subject of the warrant may be acting as an agent of a foreign power.

It is unclear when the new warrant started. The FBI interest deepened last fall because of intercepted communications between Manafort and suspected Russian operatives, and among the Russians themselves, that reignited their interest in Manafort, the sources told CNN. As part of the FISA warrant, CNN has learned that earlier this year, the FBI conducted a search of a storage facility belonging to Manafort. It's not known what they found."


http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/paul-manafort-government-wiretapped-fisa-russians/index.html
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2017, 09:04:42 pm »
@SteveDeaceShow  56m56 minutes ago


 Story is NOT that Trump was illegally wiretapped. The story is legal warrants were obtained to wiretap his campaign manager. #Facts


With Obama doing his "L'état, c'est moi" impression,  what does "legal"  even mean?   He wants it,  they do it,  and then they do a kabuki dance to make it have the appearance of "legal." 
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2017, 09:25:52 pm »
I have heard of Jungle Fever.  Would the strawman fetish be considered Hay Fever?

A poor attempt at rye-baldry. You oat to try harder.

 :beer:

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2017, 11:02:47 pm »
@jpsb
The crime of not bowing to the establishment is my guess.

Only problem with that is that Manafort IS the establishment.
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Offline jpsb

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2017, 01:25:50 pm »
I think he's investigating "Russian government efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election" (this right out of the Ron Rosenstein memo announcing the appointment of Mueller).  Specifically relative to Manafort, CNN noted the following about the most recent warrant (the article also lays out much of the background about what about Manafort is being investigated):


http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/paul-manafort-government-wiretapped-fisa-russians/index.html

Is that a crime? Didn't we (USA) try to influence the Israels last election, dido Ukraine? I'm pretty sure trying to influence elections is a common thing that all nations do, and not a crime. Meuller is conducting a witch hunt, Meuller best bud the criminal liar and leaker Comey is the one he should be investigating along with Hillary. Has anyone located our AG Jeff Sessions yet?

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #90 on: September 20, 2017, 01:27:26 pm »
From Clarice Feldman's FB timeline (you should all 'Friend' her on FB)....

From an email response to BOTW today ) :

As a lawyer and a 30 year veteran of the FBI--most of which time was spent investigating counterintelligence matters, including Russian matters in NY in the 1980s--you can imagine that I'm taking a lively interest in this. For that reason, I want to bring to your attention a bit of a slip that you made. I want to be clear at the outset that my comments are not intended to be merely pedantic--they have a very important bearing on this whole matter, as it developed, which I'll address at the conclusion.

You repeat, without comment, CNN's assertion that "the FBI must provide the court with information showing suspicion that the subject of the warrant may be acting as an agent of a foreign power.”

This gives a significantly misleading view of the matter.

In fact, a FISA order can be issued only when a Full Investigation has been approved. That means that a FISA order must "piggyback" on the authorization of Full Investigation, satisfying at a minimum the same criteria. Here is what is stated in the Attorney General Guidelines for FBI National Security Investigations and Foreign Intelligence Collection:

Full investigations. Full investigations are authorized, generally speaking, when there are specific and articulable facts giving reason to believe that a threat to the national security may​ exist. Like preliminary investigations, full investigations may relate to individuals, groups, organizations, and possible criminal violations, as specified in Part II.B.

My contention, based on experience with these matters, is that "specific and articulable facts giving reason to believe" goes well beyond mere "suspicion."

Further ...

The ability to provide "specific and articulable facts giving reason to believe that a threat to the national security may​ exist" only gets you a Full Investigation. To get a FISA order there is an additional bar. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) states re electronic surveillance that

agents need to demonstrate probable cause to believe that the "target of the surveillance is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power,"

I'm sure you're aware that the legal standard of "probable cause goes well beyond CNN's careless--or worse--paraphrase of "suspicion."

Here's why these considerations are important for this case.

CNN tells us that in the summer of 2016 two attempts were made to obtain a FISA order, but that both were rejected. According to CNN the order was finally obtained when it was more "narrowly focused." Color me skeptical.

FISA is, by its nature and just like any type of electronic surveillance, a blunderbuss type of tool or investigative technique. That's why "minimization" procedures are used. The "unmasking" we've all heard so much about amounts to an override of those mandatory minimization procedures. In other words, the inherent "broadness" of a FISA order is remedied by those minimization procedures. For that reason, an application for a FISA order will not ordinarily be rejected as over broad, since that can be remedied by the minimization procedures. Therefore, my educated guess is that the two rejections were occasioned by a failure to demonstrate probable cause that any individual named in the application (Paul Manafort, Carter Page, whoever ...) was an agent of a foreign power--not for lack of a narrow focus.

That is the significance of the "dossier," which you so rightly point out, and that's why the American people deserve to know the truth about how these FISA orders were obtained. Who was this judge who rubber stamped the FBI's collusion with foreign powers and individuals to come up with the now debunked "dossier?" Was the FISA application--on the third try--truly submitted in the good faith belief in the accuracy of its assertions, as the authors would have sworn? From everything we've heard about that "dossier," that seems a stretch.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #91 on: September 20, 2017, 01:31:58 pm »
Is that a crime? Didn't we (USA) try to influence the Israels last election, dido Ukraine? I'm pretty sure trying to influence elections is a common thing that all nations do, and not a crime. Meuller is conducting a witch hunt, Meuller best bud the criminal liar and leaker Comey is the one he should be investigating along with Hillary. Has anyone located our AG Jeff Sessions yet?

Yes, apparently Sessions was in El Paso yesterday talking against sanctuary cities.   

Offline Concerned

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2017, 01:54:08 pm »
Is that a crime? Didn't we (USA) try to influence the Israels last election, dido Ukraine? I'm pretty sure trying to influence elections is a common thing that all nations do, and not a crime. Meuller is conducting a witch hunt, Meuller best bud the criminal liar and leaker Comey is the one he should be investigating along with Hillary. Has anyone located our AG Jeff Sessions yet?

Foreign nationals providing anything of value in connection with a US election is certainly a crime.  I think campaign finance law is pretty clear on this (although I’m certainly not an attorney):

“The law (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20) prohibits foreign nationals from providing “anything of value … in connection with” an election.  The hacking of the Podesta emails, which were then transmitted to Wikileaks for posting, clearly had value, and its connection to the election is not disputed. None other than the Republican nominee said so publicly, egging on the Russians to locate and publish Clinton emails to aid his campaign. He famously declared: “I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.” One well known Trump confidante, Roger Stone, is among those backing the President’s candidacy who offered similar contemporaneous statements about the value placed on these disclosures (and who, having intimated that he had inside information about when the materials would be released, now faces inquiries from the Congress (and from the Special Counsel’s investigation)).”

<snip>

“Of course, investigators will examine whether there were Trump campaign communications or private assurances to foreign nationals—including Russians and associates of Wikileaks acting as their “agents”—to encourage them or help coordinate the dissemination of these materials.  Coordination at this level could well trigger the application of other provisions of the rules directed at the political campaign’s acceptance or receipt of the Russian assistance, or even its direct solicitation of it.  But the “substantial assistance” prong would cover the more indirect of the Trump campaign activities—including public statements—that were conducted at more of a distance, and yet still intended to signal the Russians that help was needed and of “value.”

The link below provides a good overview of the law potentially broken here and some of the defenses the Trump Administration could possibly use (if someone is ultimately indicted).  I can’t speak to what’s a crime in other countries and the US may or may not have done to influence other country's election, but I hope we get to the bottom of foreign meddling on our Presidential election and am able to do a better job at detecting and preventing it in the future.   I would have thought all patriot Americans would want to prevent foreign meddling, but I'm coming the conclusion I was wrong about that.  Sadly.

https://www.justsecurity.org/41593/hiding-plain-sight-federal-campaign-finance-law-trump-campaign-collusion-russia-trump/
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 01:57:00 pm by Concerned »
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2017, 02:12:42 pm »
Foreign nationals providing anything of value in connection with a US election is certainly a crime.  I think campaign finance law is pretty clear on this (although I’m certainly not an attorney):

“The law (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20) prohibits foreign nationals from providing “anything of value … in connection with” an election.  The hacking of the Podesta emails, which were then transmitted to Wikileaks for posting, clearly had value, and its connection to the election is not disputed.

Really? Exactly what was the information worth? Round to the nearest ten thousand.

Offline Concerned

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2017, 02:19:01 pm »
Really? Exactly what was the information worth? Round to the nearest ten thousand.

Yes, really, but I'm in no way qualified to estimate the value of the information hacked from Podesta's e-mail, but the link I provided did note the following:

  The hacking of the Podesta emails, which were then transmitted to Wikileaks for posting, clearly had value, and its connection to the election is not disputed. None other than the Republican nominee said so publicly, egging on the Russians to locate and publish Clinton emails to aid his campaign.

If Trump, his campaign aides, or his supporters want to make the argument that that information had no value whatsoever (despite Trump's glee about it during the campaign over it), they may just get their chance during a trial.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #95 on: September 20, 2017, 02:20:42 pm »
I understand the value question, but aren't they going after Manafort back to 2010?  Is the idea that he was influencing something back then?  Wouldn't be Trump related.  What would he have been influencing.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2017, 02:29:08 pm »
Yes, really, but I'm in no way qualified to estimate the value of the information hacked from Podesta's e-mail, but the link I provided did note the following:

If Trump, his campaign aides, or his supporters want to make the argument that that information had no value whatsoever (despite Trump's glee about it during the campaign over it), they may just get their chance during a trial.

Your link says the question of value is undisputed.

That is a clear falsehood.

Offline Concerned

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2017, 02:33:09 pm »
I understand the value question, but aren't they going after Manafort back to 2010?  Is the idea that he was influencing something back then?  Wouldn't be Trump related.  What would he have been influencing.

My understanding is that it's common for prosecutors to find evidence of a crime over here and leverage that against a potential witness/co-conspirator over there.  The source of the leverage isn't necessarily related to the crime being investigated.  For example, suppose a prosecutor discovered that co-conspirator/witness to a murder was dealing/using drugs, the prosecutor could use that unrelated fact to leverage the co-conspirator/witness to "flip" on the murderer.  This is what happened in the Anne Marie Fahey case in Delaware where they used the murderer's brother's (Gerry Capano) drug use as leverage to get him to flip on his brother, Thomas.  Thomas was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to death (even though no body was ever found).
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Offline Concerned

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2017, 02:37:23 pm »
Your link says the question of value is undisputed.

That is a clear falsehood.

I don't believe the story I linked to said the value was undisputed.  I believe it said the connection to the election was undisputed.  Here's the sentence I'm referring to:

"The hacking of the Podesta emails, which were then transmitted to Wikileaks for posting, clearly had value, and its connection to the election is not disputed."

I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline jpsb

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Re: Exclusive: US government wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman (Manafort)
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2017, 02:40:06 pm »
Foreign nationals providing anything of value in connection with a US election is certainly a crime. 
https://www.justsecurity.org/41593/hiding-plain-sight-federal-campaign-finance-law-trump-campaign-collusion-russia-trump/

The "Anything of value" is a NeverTrumper interpetation of the law

The law is

§ 110.20 Prohibition on contributions, donations, expenditures, independent expenditures, and disbursements by foreign nationals (52 U.S.C. 30121, 36 U.S.C. 510).

Mueller is a deep state agent conducting an illegal witch hunt.