Author Topic: Ted Cruz says 'consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want in the bedroom' as he promises his account will never like porn again  (Read 23191 times)

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Online Hoodat

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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline jpsb

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So then you have no problem with a state or city deciding that if you're going to sell cakes commercially, that you have to sell to all comers and can't just pick and choose based on your private beliefs.  After all, the people in several cities have decided that it should be illegal to refuse to sell cakes to gay people.  Aren't the people of those cities entitled to enforce their agreed-upon norms?

Someone walks into your store and wants to buy a cake sitting there, sell them the cake. It they want you to bake a special cake you should have the right to say no.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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So then you have no problem with a state or city deciding that if you're going to sell cakes commercially, that you have to sell to all comers and can't just pick and choose based on your private beliefs.  After all, the people in several cities have decided that it should be illegal to refuse to sell cakes to gay people.  Aren't the people of those cities entitled to enforce their agreed-upon norms?

In case you haven't noticed, that's what the courts are doing:  Forcing bakers to sell to all comers, thus making them slaves, involuntary labor.  Unless they can afford to fight it.  Maybe some attorneys will come defend them pro bono?  Ha.  Ha.
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Offline jpsb

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The word 'sodomy' does not appear in the Bible.

Two angels were sent to Sodom to investigate and were met by Abraham's nephew Lot,
who convinced the angels to lodge with him, and they ate with Lot.

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed
the house round, both young and old, all the people from every quarter.

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him: 'Where are the men that came in to
thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.'

I'm guessing you can figure out what the bolded part means.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 11:43:43 pm by jpsb »

Oceander

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In case you haven't noticed, that's what the courts are doing:  Forcing bakers to sell to all comers, thus making them slaves, involuntary labor.  Unless they can afford to fight it.  Maybe some attorneys will come defend them pro bono?  Ha.  Ha.

It's not making them slaves, it's telling them that if they want to engage in commercial activity, then they have to be fair about it and not pick and choose.  If they don't like it, then they can stop selling cakes commercially. 

When you engage in commercial activity you become subject to a lot more limitations than you do in your private life. 

Offline Smokin Joe

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Two angels were sent to Sodom to investigate and were met by Abraham's nephew Lot,
who convinced the angels to lodge with him, and they ate with Lot.

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed
the house round, both young and old, all the people from every quarter.

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him: 'Where are the men that came in to
thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.'

I'm guessing you can figure out what the bolded part means.
@Hoodat is correct, however, the name of the practice was derived from the name of a place they did it. It does not appear in the Bible with the terminal 'y'. They were among the first 'flamers', and it made them famous.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 11:46:06 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Oceander

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Someone walks into your store and wants to buy a cake sitting there, sell them the cake. It they want you to bake a special cake you should have the right to say no.

And the people of several cities have disagreed with you.  If you want to bake cakes commercially in those cities, then you don't get to pick and choose.  Such is life.  The simple solution is to come up with other reasons, like scheduling, for why you can't do it; the less simpler solution is to close the business and do something else.  In fact, one solution would be to come up with a comprehensive menu of the different cakes you will bake, and then tell customers that they can only pick from that list, that you don't do cudtom-order cakes any more.  List about 30 cake variations and you'll basically cover most of the cakes that would have been custom-ordered, but without having to do any custom work. 

Online Hoodat

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The first break from precedent was in declaring a penalty which had been repeatedly described as and called a penalty by its authors in the Senate is suddenly a 'tax', the very thing we had been repeatedly told by the authors of that part of the legislation and its proponents it most assuredly was NOT.
@Smokin Joe

So far, so good.  However, it really doesn't matter what the liars who wrote the law called it.  A penalty is still a tax.


In doing so, Roberts effectively rewrote the law. That is not the job of the SCOTUS: it may rule on the Constitutionality of the law, but writing it is the domain of the Congress.

It doesn't matter whether you call it a penalty or a tax.  The established legal precedent is that a penalty/tax cannot be challenged until it goes into effect.  The question you should be asking yourself is 'Why haven't Republicans refiled the case with the Supreme Court now that the tax has gone into effect?"


A penalty for violating a law is one thing, a tax upon those who are in noncompliance is another. It is a fine difference when the law covers all citizens, but a difference, nonetheless.

I respect your argument.  Truly, I do.  However, it does not change the fact that the penalty had not yet gone into effect when the case came before the Court.  It also does not change the fact that it is well within the authority of Congress to levy taxes and penalties.  I may vehemently disagree with the decision Congress made, but they still have the power to do what they did.  It is the responsibility of the fourth branch of government to do something to change it.


In addition, since the now Justice-deemed Revenue measure ("TAX") originated in the Senate, that, too is in violation of the Constitution, which specifies taxes and other revenue measures must originate in the House of Representatives. The Senate is free, of course to impose a penalty for the violation of a law, but not to impose taxes. That is the purview of the House of Representatives.

I agree wholeheartedly with this line of reasoning.  Yes, the bill originated in the Senate.  Yes, that makes the bill unconsitutional.   Unfortunately, no on argued that point before the Court.  We were had.  Republicans wanted this just as much as Democrats did.


In addition, whether or not I have insurance is something I should not be forced to surrender for the purpose of being penalized (5th Amendment), and possibly a HIPAA violation as well. This angle was not pursued, because, after all, who would rule it was constitutional to be penalized for NOT buying something just because you were breathing and not engaging in any special activity which might require some mitigation of risk, and who would think the Supreme COurt of the United States of America ( :patriot: Land of the free/Home of the Brave) would ever rule in favor of a tax for just being alive?--especially when we had been told for months the damned thing was a "PENALTY".

Agreed.


Roberts should have been kicked off the bench over that ruling, and still should be, IMHO.

The Republicans in Congress who sold us out should be the ones who get kicked out.  I would have stood on the Senate floor for days with a water jug and a bucket to piss in reading Atlas Shrugged in its entirety five, six, seven times or more just to prevent that bill from coming to a vote.  Unfortunately, there wasn't a single Republican Senator who thought the same way.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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It's not making them slaves, it's telling them that if they want to engage in commercial activity, then they have to be fair about it and not pick and choose.  If they don't like it, then they can stop selling cakes commercially. 

Hold your horses there, Oce.  This wasn't about them not selling to a particular person.  This was about forcing them to make a cake that they did not make.  The bakers did not refuse to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple.  But they did refuse to decorate the cake in the way the couple demanded.  They had a standard set of decorations and were not willing to deviate from that standard set.

This case was never about equal protection.  It was about forcing a business to deviate from its company standard.  It was a horrendous decision and an affront to equal protection.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Oceander

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Hold your horses there, Oce.  This wasn't about them not selling to a particular person.  This was about forcing them to make a cake that they did not make.  The bakers did not refuse to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple.  But they did refuse to decorate the cake in the way the couple demanded.  They had a standard set of decorations and were not willing to deviate from that standard set.

This case was never about equal protection.  It was about forcing a business to deviate from its company standard.  It was a horrendous decision and an affront to equal protection.

Again, i don't see a dramatic difference.  If you're going to engage in commercial activities you can be compelled to do things you couldn't be compelled to do if your private life was involved. 

I don't think the underlying rule is correct, but the fact is I don't see a violation of any constitutional rights.   

Offline Cyber Liberty

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It's not making them slaves, it's telling them that if they want to engage in commercial activity, then they have to be fair about it and not pick and choose.  If they don't like it, then they can stop selling cakes commercially. 

When you engage in commercial activity you become subject to a lot more limitations than you do in your private life.

I get that.  You define slaves your way, I define them mine.  The difference is I will have to lay out tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars to assert my way, you can kick back and define it however you want.  The Process is the Punishment.  You have yet to address that point, and I have a whole sheet of hundred dollar bills that say you never will.

No imbalance there at all.  Nope.

Slaves.  That's what everybody who's not you has to see it. 

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:13:19 am by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline jpsb

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Roberts should have been kicked off the bench over that ruling, and still should be, IMHO.

Big Bump to that.

Offline Smokin Joe

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It's not making them slaves, it's telling them that if they want to engage in commercial activity, then they have to be fair about it and not pick and choose.  If they don't like it, then they can stop selling cakes commercially. 

When you engage in commercial activity you become subject to a lot more limitations than you do in your private life.
So, if I am a sculptor, I can't decline to sculpt something which offends me?

Only being free to create what the State demands you must create sounds like living under the Kims.

That is NOT Liberty.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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And the people of several cities have disagreed with you.  If you want to bake cakes commercially in those cities, then you don't get to pick and choose.  Such is life.  The simple solution is to come up with other reasons, like scheduling, for why you can't do it; the less simpler solution is to close the business and do something else.  In fact, one solution would be to come up with a comprehensive menu of the different cakes you will bake, and then tell customers that they can only pick from that list, that you don't do cudtom-order cakes any more.  List about 30 cake variations and you'll basically cover most of the cakes that would have been custom-ordered, but without having to do any custom work.

Your freedom of conscience is not sold to the state for the opportunity to hold a job.  That's crazy talk.  It is the opposite of freedom.  Should a photographer be forced to produce pornography?  Should a singer be forced to perform for Trump or Hillary?  Is the desire for a specific vendor's cake so fundamental a right that the vendor should have to do anything no matter what kind of violation of his own conscience before God...and that "right" somehow trumps any right of the vendor just because it is commerce?  So bow to the state's morality or starve?  That's your idea of freedom?  Only those who embrace perversity get to make money in today's America?  Count me among the starving then.  God will judge us.  I'll stand with Him.

Offline Smokin Joe

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If the right to not worship is implicit in the right to worship as one chooses, then it should be equally implicit in the right to free speech is the Right to not say something, by extension, the same right should exist in other forms of expression, to wit: in the right to create, and the right to not create.  To imply that anyone can be forced to engage in commerce with anyone else against their will is anathema to our Bill of Rights.

And that includes Obamacare, too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Your freedom of conscience is not sold to the state for the opportunity to hold a job.  That's crazy talk.  It is the opposite of freedom.  Should a photographer be forced to produce pornography?  Should a singer be forced to perform for Trump or Hillary?  Is the desire for a specific vendor's cake so fundamental a right that the vendor should have to do anything no matter what kind of violation of his own conscience before God...and that "right" somehow trumps any right of the vendor just because it is commerce?  So bow to the state's morality or starve?  That's your idea of freedom?  Only those who embrace perversity get to make money in today's America?  Count me among the starving then.  God will judge us.  I'll stand with Him.

Good post!  There are limits to everything.  And we are free to have limits in this country.  Or we used to be.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Bigun

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If the right to not worship is implicit in the right to worship as one chooses, then it should be equally implicit in the right to free speech is the Right to not say something, by extension, the same right should exist in other forms of expression, to wit: in the right to create, and the right to not create.  To imply that anyone can be forced to engage in commerce with anyone else against their will is anathema to our Bill of Rights.

And that includes Obamacare, too.

Right on!  Right on!  Right on!    888high58888
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Chosen Daughter

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So, if I am a sculptor, I can't decline to sculpt something which offends me?

Only being free to create what the State demands you must create sounds like living under the Kims.

That is NOT Liberty.

Amen.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

debrawiest

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Your freedom of conscience is not sold to the state for the opportunity to hold a job.  That's crazy talk.  It is the opposite of freedom.  Should a photographer be forced to produce pornography?  Should a singer be forced to perform for Trump or Hillary?  Is the desire for a specific vendor's cake so fundamental a right that the vendor should have to do anything no matter what kind of violation of his own conscience before God...and that "right" somehow trumps any right of the vendor just because it is commerce?  So bow to the state's morality or starve?  That's your idea of freedom?  Only those who embrace perversity get to make money in today's America?  Count me among the starving then.  God will judge us.  I'll stand with Him.

Great post. And good to see you again.  :-)

Online Hoodat

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Again, i don't see a dramatic difference.  If you're going to engage in commercial activities you can be compelled to do things you couldn't be compelled to do if your private life was involved.   

So if I ask a bakery to add boysenberry icing to a cupcake they sell, and they refuse, then they should be ordered to pay me $135,000 at the point of a gun?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Cyber Liberty

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So if I ask a bakery to add boysenberry icing to a cupcake they sell, and they refuse, then they should be ordered to pay me $135,000 at the point of a gun?

See that sheet of Hundreds upthread?  They say he doesn't answer that one either. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Bigun

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Your freedom of conscience is not sold to the state for the opportunity to hold a job.  That's crazy talk.  It is the opposite of freedom.  Should a photographer be forced to produce pornography?  Should a singer be forced to perform for Trump or Hillary?  Is the desire for a specific vendor's cake so fundamental a right that the vendor should have to do anything no matter what kind of violation of his own conscience before God...and that "right" somehow trumps any right of the vendor just because it is commerce?  So bow to the state's morality or starve?  That's your idea of freedom?  Only those who embrace perversity get to make money in today's America?  Count me among the starving then.  God will judge us.  I'll stand with Him.

Great post!  Spot on! 

Welcome back!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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Your freedom of conscience is not sold to the state for the opportunity to hold a job.  That's crazy talk.  It is the opposite of freedom.  Should a photographer be forced to produce pornography?  Should a singer be forced to perform for Trump or Hillary?

Should a doctor be forced to perform abortions?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline roamer_1

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Roberts should have been kicked off the bench over that ruling, and still should be, IMHO.

There was a lot of commentary citing 636th dimensional underwater chess for that one to, at the time... Turns out it was just piss poor.

Offline Smokin Joe

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There was a lot of commentary citing 636th dimensional underwater chess for that one to, at the time... Turns out it was just piss poor.
Yeah, so poor that instead of dumping Obamacare, root and branch (no severability clause in that monster--now I don't see that as incompetence, but arrogance--would have meant that if part of it went, it all would have.), we got stuck with the destruction (for a lot of us) of our health care. If there are leper colonies in Hell, I hope those sh*tbirds all get a turn.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 03:21:15 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis