Author Topic: Ryan Blocking Concealed Carry Reciprocity, Congressman Tells Armed American Radio  (Read 6849 times)

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Offline driftdiver

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@driftdiver yeah it will be fun to watch.

My fear is they will do as all Liberals do and forum shop...find a judge that will agree with them...and it will be done in a state where the 9th Circus has jurisdiction.

I know it's all supposition at this point...but if there's one thing I've learned about Liberals over the years it's to never say never when it comes to the crazy things they might try.

@txradioguy
They never fear going to far and they never stop.  They'll accept any compromise as long as its a step in their favor, even a tiny one.

Conservatives are still holding out for the grand slam.
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Oceander

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Many, certainly not all, read the predicate clause as the justification for the individual right.  Militia were formed by individuals that stepped forward to help overthrow an unjust government.  But without the individuals, prior to the step up, being armed and self-trained, they would not be useful for the purpose of a Militia.

It does not read that the arms are only for Militia use.

It doesn't mandate that result but it does muddy the waters because it leaves it open to that interpretation   

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I've decided I no longer have anything to contribute to this thread.  The chief troll here has me on Ignore anyway.
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Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy
They never fear going to far and they never stop.  They'll accept any compromise as long as its a step in their favor, even a tiny one.

Conservatives are still holding out for the grand slam.

Yup...I agree completely.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline driftdiver

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I've decided I no longer have anything to contribute to this thread.  The chief troll here has me on Ignore anyway.

@Cyber Liberty
No the troll doesn't have people on ignore, he just doesnt respond.   cmon man we love ya, well most of the time
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Offline Jazzhead

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Its an individual right despite what all the liberals wish.   

That's what you think, that's what I think, that's what the current SCOTUS thinks.   I'm just saying that the Second Amendment's predicate clause renders the matter ambiguous.  That ambiguity makes the composition of the SCOTUS an essential matter - change the Court and the individual right could disappear.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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@Cyber Liberty
No the troll doesn't have people on ignore, he just doesnt respond.   cmon man we love ya, well most of the time

Correct - I've never put anyone on ignore.  Not my style.  But I tend to be in the minority, so I'm selective in who I choose to respond to. 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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I do not agree the term Militia refers to the army.  Both terms were used at the time of writing to describe separate groups.

http://theweek.com/articles/629815/how-alexander-hamilton-solved-americas-gun-problem--228-years-ago
I have a copy of Barclay's English Dictionary, London, ca 1820 (King George III's Son is Regent in the line of succession in the back). In that, 'Militia' is defined as "The Army, in it's entirety".  The definition is pulled from a dusty volume.
But when I read that, it changed the way I saw the Second Amendment. As we so often do, people were arguing on the meaning of the words based on today's English usage, not the usage of the time. Words like "State", "Militia", etc. have different meaning and nuance in their usage today.
 
Each sovereign State had an army at the time, referred to as Militia. The term 'Army', not only designated a size of troop unit (like corps or regiment, for example), which usage persists today, but was used in some instances to delineate between a professional standing army and the armies of the various States which were on a call-up basis, commonly in the colonies referred to as 'militia', and who made their living other than by soldiering.

The common implication in modern usage is that militia are less well trained and equipped as the standing army which is a professional military.

There have been numerous convolutions over the meaning of "regulated" as well, some saying it means "trained". However, in the common usage, a regulator controls, regulations control, to regulate is the act of controlling. Keeping a military is certainly part and parcel of having a Free State (Free Country), but keeping a military from overrunning that free country from within is equally vital to keeping that State (country) free.

Whether the Federal (professional) Army was to be involved, or the State Militia (army), not only was having them for the purpose of the defense of a free state (from enemies without) vital, but being able to defend against them if they went rogue under some ambitious commander who would use them to impose tyranny was equally important.

Like fire, an army can be a great servant, but something that can be utterly destructive if it gets out of hand.

The preponderance of arms in the hands of the People, by sheer force of numbers alone, even without martial training, was seen as the ultimate check to the misuse of power--at any level.

For that reason, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms was seen as sacrosanct and not to be infringed.

Now, re-read it. A Well Regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a Free State, the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not Be Infringed.

It makes perfect sense in the above context, and without extraordinary definitions or convolutions of logic, and continues to make sense today.

The only problem is, that by longstanding convention, the Right has been incrementally infringed upon, removing the Right from entire classes of arms (currently in common infantry use) which are rare among the populace only by virtue of long standing infringements and might otherwise not be novel or unusual to possess, and from various and sundry geographic locales, making the Right a de facto privilege in practice.
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Online Bigun

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I've decided I no longer have anything to contribute to this thread.  The chief troll here has me on Ignore anyway.

@Cyber Liberty

Why anyone here still chooses to argue with this troll is beyond me!  I have no time for it!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 03:25:08 pm by Bigun »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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No you are correct they can't do anything...right now...as long as that stuff stays within the confines of Ft. Carson.

I was merely hypnotizing on a day in the near future when the states like California and New York WILL sue the government to force the installations in their states to comply with state gun laws as far as guidelines on magazine capacity caliber's allowed and rate of fire.
Maybe they can get the states to come in and check for UXO on the ranges, too .... Just saying... :nometalk:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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At the time a standing Army was not something they expected or anticipated.   Hence the militia which was comprised of every able bodied man up to around 44 yrs old.
Actually, a Standing (Federal) army was the crux of the discussion. Recall, the Federalist Papers predated the Constitution and The Bill of Rights.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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I don't disagree with respect to many of the Constitution's enumerated rights which derive from "natural" rights, but the Second Amendment doesn't fit that pattern because of the predicate clause.   The natural right - the right given to us by the "Creator" - is the right to individual self-defense, of home and hearth.   That's not what the Second Amendment protects.  It protects the right to keep arms in the context of collective defense, of service in the militia.   

It was the SCOTUS that, over 200 years after the Constitution was ratified, held that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right based derived from the inherent or natural right of self-defense.  Keep in mind the facts -  D.C. attempted to effectively ban all handguns, an essential tool for protection of the home.   

Kindly consider that for over 200 years it went unchallenged that "...the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms..." meant just that. Right of the People. What led to the ruling wasn't the presence of the Right, but the audacity to infringe upon it.

Quote
The loss of this individual right is but one SCOTUS justice away.   A different Court can easily, and plausibly, limit the 2A to arms borne for service in the well-regulated militia.   
So, that would imply I can keep that M-79 and bandolier of ammo in the hall closet? Or the SAW? An M-2? without any of the current infringements? Demand might make the price spike a little but when it settles down the select fire versions of arms that cost in the thousands now, should be available, new, for a tenth of the current price, and no permit required.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 03:48:53 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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I don't disagree with respect to many of the Constitution's enumerated rights which derive from "natural" rights, but the Second Amendment doesn't fit that pattern because of the predicate clause.   The natural right - the right given to us by the "Creator" - is the right to individual self-defense, of home and hearth.   That's not what the Second Amendment protects.  It protects the right to keep arms in the context of collective defense, of service in the militia.   

It was the SCOTUS that, over 200 years after the Constitution was ratified, held that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right based derived from the inherent or natural right of self-defense.  Keep in mind the facts -  D.C. attempted to effectively ban all handguns, an essential tool for protection of the home.   

The loss of this individual right is but one SCOTUS justice away.   A different Court can easily, and plausibly, limit the 2A to arms borne for service in the well-regulated militia.   

No it does not.  It specifically states the right is for the people.  The Militia is only a justification for that right, not the ownership of the right.  The people need to be armed and able to bear those arms, in case they are needed.  It is not limited to only those already existing in a military function, but all those able bodies that may be needed.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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@Cyber Liberty

Why anyone here still chooses to argue with this troll is beyond me!  I have no time for it!

He's pretty much the only one arguing at this point, so I don't have time for it either.
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Offline RoosGirl

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Offline Jazzhead

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He's pretty much the only one arguing at this point, so I don't have time for it either.

Arguing?  About what?  I'm really just trying to point out that the individual right is precarious because it rests on the interpretation of a SCOTUS majority.   The ambiguous wording of the 2A is to blame. 
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Offline Jazzhead

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No it does not.  It specifically states the right is for the people.  The Militia is only a justification for that right, not the ownership of the right. 

Understood, but that's not the only interpretation.  My concern is the "militia" is an outdated concept; we rely on professional armies now.  With the rationale of the predicate clause gone, it is hardly a stretch to winnow away at the right itself - unless it is firmly established as an enumerated right based on the right of individual self-defense.   

Has the 2A community ever seriously considered trying to amend the 2A to explicitly state the right in terms of an individual right derived from a natural right (that is, making it read more like the Constitution's other enumerated rights)?   I think that's the best way of insuring the individual right recognized by Heller isn't taken away in the future when the Dems manage to pack the Court.   
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Offline thackney

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Understood, but that's not the only interpretation.  My concern is the "militia" is an outdated concept; we rely on professional armies now.  With the rationale of the predicate clause gone, it is hardly a stretch to winnow away at the right itself - unless it is firmly established as an enumerated right based on the right of individual self-defense.   

Has the 2A community ever seriously considered trying to amend the 2A to explicitly state the right in terms of an individual right derived from a natural right (that is, making it read more like the Constitution's other enumerated rights)?   I think that's the best way of insuring the individual right recognized by Heller isn't taken away in the future when the Dems manage to pack the Court.

Up to the point that the professional army no longer serves the will of the people.  Just as at the time it was written, the 2nd Amendment provides for the citizens to protect themselves from their own government.  As some of the federalist papers pointed out.  It is not just for foreign invasions.  It was also a check on the military application of federal force on its own population.  Those people the wrote and signed it had just completed that action.

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Offline thackney

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Understood, but that's not the only interpretation.  My concern is the "militia" is an outdated concept; we rely on professional armies now.  With the rationale of the predicate clause gone, it is hardly a stretch to winnow away at the right itself - unless it is firmly established as an enumerated right based on the right of individual self-defense.   

Has the 2A community ever seriously considered trying to amend the 2A to explicitly state the right in terms of an individual right derived from a natural right (that is, making it read more like the Constitution's other enumerated rights)?   I think that's the best way of insuring the individual right recognized by Heller isn't taken away in the future when the Dems manage to pack the Court.

Not to many of us.

Myself, I would not support an act to change the 2nd Amendment.  The US Constitution intentionally used checks and balances in many areas to limit power.  This is also one of them, and it should not be forgotten.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Up to the point that the professional army no longer serves the will of the people.  Just as at the time it was written, the 2nd Amendment provides for the citizens to protect themselves from their own government.  As some of the federalist papers pointed out.  It is not just for foreign invasions.  It was also a check on the military application of federal force on its own population.  Those people the wrote and signed it had just completed that action.

Understood, but all of that just reinforces the view that the predicate clause is part and parcel of the right, and in fact limits the right.   Roamer says his right to own guns derives from a natural right conveyed by the Creator - but the  plain text of the 2A contradicts that.   
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Offline thackney

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Understood, but all of that just reinforces the view that the predicate clause is part and parcel of the right, and in fact limits the right.   Roamer says his right to own guns derives from a natural right conveyed by the Creator - but the  plain text of the 2A contradicts that.   

We don't agree.  The ability of the people to stand against an army is what gained our freedom from the king.  It keeps our freedom from those that would be king.  It must remain with the people and not with the government for that purpose.  It doesn't limit the people for other uses; it defines the use must be separate from the government for that purpose.

The 2A doesn't contradict the gun right conveyed by the creator to the individual.  The 2A limits the government to not be the only one with arms.  It limits the government from having too much power.

Government limits are not only established by strict limit, but by also giving power to other parties.  Much of our constitution is intentionally written this way.  It wasn't meant to make it simple and easy.  It was intentional to make it difficult for government to change.
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Offline Jazzhead

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The 2A doesn't contradict the gun right conveyed by the creator to the individual.  The 2A limits the government to not be the only one with arms.  It limits the government from having too much power.


It may not contradict that natural right of individual self-defense, but it doesn't protect it in the same way that, say, the First Amendment protects the rights of free speech, religion and assembly.  It is the only right limited by a predicate clause - and while I understand your position based on history from over two centuries ago, that predicate clause represents a true obstacle to the protection of the natural right, especially given that citizen militias are seen by most as a thing of the past.

My view is that the 2A's terms are flawed and fail to protect the natural right, and that a Constitutional amendment is a good idea so that the natural right isn't beholden to a transient SCOTUS majority.  Indeed, one could reasonably take the position that the individual right of self-defense is as beholden to the SCOTUS as the abortion right is.   It lacks true support in the Constitution, and for that reason I think a clarifying amendment would be most useful.   
 

 
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Offline thackney

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It may not contradict that natural right of individual self-defense, but it doesn't protect it in the same way that, say, the First Amendment protects the rights of free speech, religion and assembly.  It is the only right limited by a predicate clause - and while I understand your position based on history from over two centuries ago, that predicate clause represents a true obstacle to the protection of the natural right, especially given that citizen militias are seen by most as a thing of the past.

My view is that the 2A's terms are flawed and fail to protect the natural right, and that a Constitutional amendment is a good idea so that the natural right isn't beholden to a transient SCOTUS majority.  Indeed, one could reasonably take the position that the individual right of self-defense is as beholden to the SCOTUS as the abortion right is.   It lacks true support in the Constitution, and for that reason I think a clarifying amendment would be most useful.   

It is not a limit.  There is no "only" or similar limitation in that clause.  A justification is not a limit.  It is not a reasonable position to add words that are not there. The only way to take that position is to ignore the rest of words actually written down: "the people" "shall not be infringed".
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:52:42 pm by thackney »
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No it does not.  It specifically states the right is for the people.  The Militia is only a justification for that right, not the ownership of the right.  The people need to be armed and able to bear those arms, in case they are needed.  It is not limited to only those already existing in a military function, but all those able bodies that may be needed.

No, it is not clear.  It states that the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.  "The people" is a collective term, and does not unambiguously refer to each individual within that collective.  The Second Amendment is, on this point, ambiguous, and it is thanks to the Supreme Court's clarification that it is now held to be an individual's right. 

Offline driftdiver

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No, it is not clear.  It states that the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.  "The people" is a collective term, and does not unambiguously refer to each individual within that collective.  The Second Amendment is, on this point, ambiguous, and it is thanks to the Supreme Court's clarification that it is now held to be an individual's right.


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