Video shows Utah nurse screaming, being dragged into police car after refusing to let officer take blood from unconscious victim

[roamer_1]

I'm no lawyer, but based on the info in the article and the video, I don't see how they could show probable cause to support a warrant.  The guy was driving down the road, minding his own business.

I don't think they were necessarily trying to prove DUI, unless the guy smelled of alcohol at the scene...  which would be enough for a warrant. I think it is about preserving all evidence in preparation for a trial condition.

[Cyber Liberty]

Probably not. Probably covering the bases so that when the defense raises the question at trial, the evidence is there to refute the claim that the victim had 'contributory responsibility'...

It need not be nefarious, albeit that the thing was handled wrongly.

Important point follows in bold letters:  The patient in question wasn't a suspect in any crime whatsoever.  If you read the article all the way to the end, the man in a coma was an innocent bystander, a fellow who was simply driving down the road minding his own business.  The suspect is, in fact, dead having been killed in the crash.  There was no probable cause to obtain a warrant for the blood, which is why the Detective when the bullying route with the Nurse.

This Nurse is owed a pile of money and possibly the keys to the City for this.

[ABX]

This story is very confusing. 

The patient was just driving down the road, minding his own business, when a pickup truck being driven by somebody being pursued by the Police slammed into him causing a burning wreck.  Then, the Police demand he prove he's not on drugs?  Why should he?  So then the Police Detective tries to bully the nurse into letting him take a blood sample from an innocent driver.  The detective obviously knows he's in the wrong, or he would have obtained a Warrant.

I submit the motivation of the Police, specifically the Detective, was to try to prove the truck driver somehow had contributory responsibility for the collision, because the driver of the Police car certainly did because of the hot pursuit.

CYA, folks.

You may have hit a point there. He may have exceeded some boundary (pursuit alone, crossing speed thresholds they are allowed to pursuit at, etc) so they were looking for a CYI or distraction from some misjudgments by the officer in the pursuit.

[Cyber Liberty]

I don't think they were necessarily trying to prove DUI, unless the guy smelled of alcohol at the scene...  which would be enough for a warrant. I think it is about preserving all evidence in preparation for a trial condition.

The patient was an innocent bystander.  Please re-read the article, it's in the very last part.

[Cyber Liberty]

You may have hit a point there. He may have exceeded some boundary (pursuit alone, crossing speed thresholds they are allowed to pursuit at, etc) so they were looking for a CYI or distraction from some misjudgments by the officer in the pursuit.

That's my theory.  The reportage in the OP was very misleading, as it has everybody thinking the poor guy in a coma was some sort of suspect.  He was not, he was a completely innocent bystander.  The Cops are looking for something, anything to pin on somebody for their own likely malfeasance.

IOW, SOP for many Police Departments.

[roamer_1]

Important point follows in bold letters:  The patient in question wasn't a suspect in any crime whatsoever.  If you read the article all the way to the end, the man in a coma was an innocent bystander, a fellow who was simply driving down the road minding his own business.  The suspect is, in fact, dead having been killed in the crash.  There was no probable cause to obtain a warrant for the blood, which is why the Detective when the bullying route with the Nurse.

I don't know the prerequisites. There may be procedural law that any high-speed collision requires all parties to be tested. there may be evidentiary provisions to preserve for a probate suit. I don't know. I am merely suggesting the request is not necessarily nefarious.

This Nurse is owed a pile of money and possibly the keys to the City for this.

No doubt. That it was handled poorly seems to be beyond question. Hippa alone would likely necessitate a warrant. I am not arguing otherwise.

[Wingnut]

I don't know the prerequisites. There may be procedural law that any high-speed collision requires all parties to be tested. there may be evidentiary provisions to preserve for a probate suit. I don't know. I am merely suggesting the request is not necessarily nefarious.

No doubt. That it was handled poorly seems to be beyond question. Hippa alone would likely necessitate a warrant. I am not arguing otherwise.

The only prerequisite is: Thou shall cover thy ass and the asses of my blue brothers at any, and all costs.  Whether thu lies, planting of evidence, witness tampering and/or subjugation.

Learn it, live it, love it.

[roamer_1]

The only prerequisite is: Thou shall cover thy ass and the asses of my blue brothers at any, and all costs.  Whether thu lies, planting of evidence, witness tampering and/or subjugation.

Learn it, live it, love it.

Meh. I am not against the thought (fair disclosure, my boy is a cop), but I will wait to render such a judgement till more info comes out. I will agree that the arrest of the nurse was way overboard, but the why of it remains.

[edpc]

Between the horseshoe hair and porn star mustache, he's a real beaut.

[Cyber Liberty]

I don't know the prerequisites. There may be procedural law that any high-speed collision requires all parties to be tested. there may be evidentiary provisions to preserve for a probate suit. I don't know. I am merely suggesting the request is not necessarily nefarious.

No doubt. That it was handled poorly seems to be beyond question. Hippa alone would likely necessitate a warrant. I am not arguing otherwise.

Quite right.  Regardless of the other particulars of the case, the HIPPA regs would forbid the taking of the blood without a Warrant, and it's telling the Police didn't want to get one.  That last part there really tickles my suspicious bone.  The Detective clearly knew better than to try to obtain a blood sample without a Warrant (he had special training!), and yet he did, to the point of risking a wrongful arrest.

[Cyber Liberty]

Meh. I am not against the thought (fair disclosure, my boy is a cop), but I will wait to render such a judgement till more info comes out. I will agree that the arrest of the nurse was way overboard, but the why of it remains.

The "why" of it appears to be her refusal to "Submit to my authritah."  This is the kind of thing that makes all Police look bad, even presumably good ones like your boy.

[roamer_1]

Quite right.  Regardless of the other particulars of the case, the HIPPA regs would forbid the taking of the blood without a Warrant, and it's telling the Police didn't want to get one.  That last part there really tickles my suspicious bone.  The Detective clearly knew better than to try to obtain a blood sample without a Warrant (he had special training!), and yet he did, to the point of risking a wrongful arrest.

It doesn't make sense though. They're pulling blood anyway, and a simple request to preserve a vial for evidentiary purposes so it is available when a warrant comes along is no skin off of anyone's nose.

They would have routinely done tox/controlled substance screening as a matter of course, just to treat a badly injured patient.

So commandeering a vial in a CYA would be disprovable by hospital records anyway. The only reason to procure a vial is for untainted evidentiary purposes in order to refute defense of some kind. or to provide defense council with untainted (chain of evidence) samples... Likely just a SOP thing.

I don't get it. So I will wait till more info surfaces. 

[roamer_1]

The "why" of it appears to be her refusal to "Submit to my authritah."  This is the kind of thing that makes all Police look bad, even presumably good ones like your boy.

I'll buy that much for sure. Gold shield slappin his balls around... I see that... All the rest of the sub plot remains to be seen.

[Cyber Liberty]

It doesn't make sense though. They're pulling blood anyway, and a simple request to preserve a vial for evidentiary purposes so it is available when a warrant comes along is no skin off of anyone's nose.

They would have routinely done tox/controlled substance screening as a matter of course, just to treat a badly injured patient.

So commandeering a vial in a CYA would be disprovable by hospital records anyway. The only reason to procure a vial is for untainted evidentiary purposes in order to refute defense of some kind. or to provide defense council with untainted (chain of evidence) samples... Likely just a SOP thing.

I don't get it. So I will wait till more info surfaces. 

Taking a vial and storing it for possible evidentiary use later is exactly where this goes off the fairway and into the rough.  It's like extracting a forced confession from somebody, only to be used if future evidence leads the case in that direction. 

It's a fishing expedition. 

Unless the Police had some external reason to suspect this fellow was a suspect in any sort of crime, there was no probable cause (which is why they didn't even attempt to obtain a Warrant before taking the extraordinary step of arresting a nurse).  By "external reason" I mean, where there open containers in the car?  Did he smell like Alcohol verified by at least two people? 

Added:  If, for some reason, the patient needs the bloodwork to exonerate himself, he already has possession of it and can produce it then (it will indicate things like BAC).  The only conceivable reason the Police Detective would want it is to use it against him in court.

[roamer_1]

Taking a vial and storing it for possible evidentiary use later is exactly where this goes off the fairway and into the rough.  It's like extracting a forced confession from somebody, only to be used if future evidence leads the case in that direction. 

The vial can be considered already taken, as procedural norm in the hospital. a request to preserve hurts nothing.

It's a fishing expedition. 

Not without the warrant it's not. If that vial is in the possession of the LEOs without a warrant it is useful for nothing. Preserving a vial in the care of the hospital till the warrant is retrieved is how that is done. Once the warrant, the ownership can transfer to the LEOs. It has no evidentiary value if it was obtained by illegal means.

Unless the Police had some external reason to suspect this fellow was a suspect in any sort of crime, there was no probable cause (which is why they didn't even attempt to obtain a Warrant before taking the extraordinary step of arresting a nurse).  By "external reason" I mean, where there open containers in the car?  Did he smell like Alcohol verified by at least two people?

Like I said, there may be multiple reasons possible for the preservation. there are no reasons I am aware of that wouldn't require a warrant or consent. The hospital is incapable of acting out consent. Thus warrant or no good.

Makes no sense.

[roamer_1]

Added:  If, for some reason, the patient needs the bloodwork to exonerate himself, he already has possession of it and can produce it then (it will indicate things like BAC).  The only conceivable reason the Police Detective would want it is to use it against him in court.

In what manner without a warrant? Any first year law student could win that case.

[INVAR]

That's my theory.  The reportage in the OP was very misleading, as it has everybody thinking the poor guy in a coma was some sort of suspect.  He was not, he was a completely innocent bystander.  The Cops are looking for something, anything to pin on somebody for their own likely malfeasance.

IOW, SOP for many Police Departments.

I will never get on the "Blue Lives Matter" meme bandwagon.  That video boils my blood, because it is very similar to an atrocity local cops perpetrated on my two daughters several years ago who were in their 20s at the time in their own home. They refused to let cops to come in their home without a warrant after getting SWATTED by a nasty neighbor.  Let's just say the cops kicked in their door after threatening to bash their skulls in if they did not let them in. Upon entry they beat the living crap out of both of my girls while destroying their phones while recording the incident and then they accused them of felony assault of a peace officer.  Mandatory minimum 5 years in prison, no parole. $100,000 fine. 2 counts each.  Very conveniently - the video and audio of the incident went 'missing' and both my kids refused to take a felony plea deal.  So they tried to throw the book at them both.  Both cops said my girls punched them in the face, but there were no records of cops following procedure to record injuries suffered.  Cops lied on the stand twice and got caught - Judge still let their testimony stand - even when it was proven they contradicted their written reports, which were then MODIFIED and rewritten during the Grand Jury phase!

Corruption runs so deep in our injustice system, most folks have no idea how wicked it is, until they find themselves stuck in it.  We lost all our savings in attorney's fees trying to keep my girls out of prison for something they did not do, that these large 6'2", 6'-3" cops did to cover up the fact they broke and entered a private residence without a warrant on false charges.  My kids ended up getting the charges dropped the day of the trial by the state prosecutor, because they refused to take any deals and the State had no case.

I have no sympathy for Blue Lives when shit like this is becoming more and more common.  What was done to that nurse makes my blood boil.

And thanks to Civil Asset Forfeiture turing all cop departments into Highwaymen - I doubt any respect is going to come any time soon AFAIC.

Sorry - had to vent.

[Cyber Liberty]

In what manner without a warrant? Any first year law student could win that case.

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here, and it leads us both to the question:  Why was this so important to the Police Detective he had to arrest the Nurse?  This part makes precisely ZERO sense to me.

Blood samples were already taken for diagnostic purposes, the blood was analyzed, and all that could have been worked out at any later day.  The blood isn't going anywhere, and the analysis certainly isn't going anywhere.

Arresting somebody should be a much more thoroughly thought out process than what seems to have happened here.  For that, these officers should be looking at more than loss of their jobs, or future jobs.  They should be looking at felony kidnapping charges, or at least false imprisonment under color of law.  The standard immunity for that should not apply.

[Cyber Liberty]

I will never get on the "Blue Lives Matter" meme bandwagon.  That video boils my blood, because it is very similar to an atrocity local cops perpetrated on my two daughters several years ago who were in their 20s at the time in their own home. They refused to let cops to come in their home without a warrant after getting SWATTED by a nasty neighbor.  Let's just say the cops kicked in their door after threatening to bash their skulls in if they did not let them in. Upon entry they beat the living crap out of both of my girls while destroying their phones while recording the incident and then they accused them of felony assault of a peace officer.  Mandatory minimum 5 years in prison, no parole. $100,000 fine. 2 counts each.  Very conveniently - the video and audio of the incident went 'missing' and both my kids refused to take a felony plea deal.  So they tried to throw the book at them both.  Both cops said my girls punched them in the face, but there were no records of cops following procedure to record injuries suffered.  Cops lied on the stand twice and got caught - Judge still let their testimony stand - even when it was proven they contradicted their written reports, which were then MODIFIED and rewritten during the Grand Jury phase!

Corruption runs so deep in our injustice system, most folks have no idea how wicked it is, until they find themselves stuck in it.  We lost all our savings in attorney's fees trying to keep my girls out of prison for something they did not do, that these large 6'2", 6'-3" cops did to cover up the fact they broke and entered a private residence without a warrant on false charges.  My kids ended up getting the charges dropped the day of the trial by the state prosecutor, because they refused to take any deals and the State had no case.

I have no sympathy for Blue Lives when shit like this is becoming more and more common.  What was done to that nurse makes my blood boil.

And thanks to Civil Asset Forfeiture turing all cop departments into Highwaymen - I doubt any respect is going to come any time soon AFAIC.

Sorry - had to vent.

Pretty good vent.  People very often lose sight of the fact that the process can be the punishment.  The cost of defending yourself from things like this can wipe most people out, and as a result authorities can run roughshod over them.  This has been made worse by the Forfeiture laws because now even having the means at your disposal isn't a guarantee you can ever get your day in court.

[skeeter]

The patient was an innocent bystander.  Please re-read the article, it's in the very last part.

The truck driver was a reserve police officer himself.

[roamer_1]

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here, and it leads us both to the question:  Why was this so important to the Police Detective he had to arrest the Nurse?  This part makes precisely ZERO sense to me.

All that does make sense is a dumass cop concerned with his questionable testicular fortitude.
That much is all that is clear. Outside of that, I need more info, 

[Cyber Liberty]

All that does make sense is a dumass cop concerned with his questionable testicular fortitude.
That much is all that is clear. Outside of that, I need more info, 

Frankly, we all do.  This has gone about as far as it can right now.  The story has broken out of the usual Cone of Silence, so the discussion will be focused on the behavior of the Officers involved.  Unless something turns up that can qualify a Warrant for this fellow's blood already taken at the time of the incident, that part of the story is dead as a doornail.

The only thing I am sure of at this point is the Nurse did a good job and stuck by her guns under very difficult circumstances.  So did the Hospital in backing up her assertion of the patient's rights under the 4th Amendment.

[Cyber Liberty]

The truck driver was a reserve police officer himself.

See what that got him?  Bupkis.  It got other cops trying to railroad him.

[roamer_1]

The only thing I am sure of at this point is the Nurse did a good job and stuck by her guns under very difficult circumstances.  So did the Hospital in backing up her assertion of the patient's rights under the 4th Amendment.

That's right.

[skeeter]

See what that got him?  Bupkis.  It got other cops trying to railroad him.

A few other details...

The request to draw blood came from the police department in the area the crash occurred in.

The injured truck driver had been medicated on the scene by EMTs.

The nurse was an Olympic alpine skier who competed under her maiden name.