8 Arguments Against Immigration Reform

[RoosGirl]

Such as.....?

Are you ready for a nation identity card and a law that says you must have it on you at all times, must present it to an LEO upon request, and can be arrested and held until your identity is confirmed if you don't have it on you and don't present it upon request?

Otherwise, how do you spot the illegal Mexican among a group of legal Mexican immigrants and native-born Americans of Mexican ancestry?

Proof of legal status for driver's license
Proof of legal status for work
Proof of legal status for benefits
Proof of legal status for permanent housing

Just some thoughts.  If IRS can require proof of insurance to avoid ACA penalty then these things should be just as easy, at least until our messed up tax system is fixed.

[roamer_1]

You want it enforced to 100%, then you need Gestapo/Stasi tactics.  And once you've let them into one part of life, they will inevitably expand into all aspects of life.

Bullsh*t.
Businesses just have to adhere to basic law and not hire illegal workers. It ain't that hard.
Heavy penalties for employing illegals, and taking away the twinkies and it will all work out just fine.

That is why enforcement of the existing melange of stupidities will never succeed - the price is simply too high.

I will agree with you there. The law must be simple and succinct. 

That is why reform is necessary.  And why republicans and conservatives will continue to be on the losing end of the discussion - effectively yielding immigration policy to the left - until they come to grips with this basic reality.

To move from the Conservative viewpoint at all is to cede it all to the liberals anyway. If we do not adhere to the rule of law there is no law, and anything goes.

[roamer_1]

And how do you catch them?  Again, you will end up resorting to Gestapo/Stasi tactics if you simply try to mindlessly enforce what's currently in place.

Not true. In large part, local cops know who are hiring the illegals. They are prevented from prosecution.

[Oceander]

Now you're just avoiding the issues.

[roamer_1]

Undocumented immigrant population remains flat for eighth straight year

I don't believe that for a minute.

[Oceander]

Not true. In large part, local cops know who are hiring the illegals. They are prevented from prosecution.

Really?  Maybe in Mayberry, but not in most other towns of any appreciable size. 

[roamer_1]

Really?  Maybe in Mayberry, but not in most other towns of any appreciable size.

'Towns of appreciable size' are just a whole bunch of Mayberrys strung together.
there still must be a gathering place where te illegals go to get hired. That won't be hard to find anywhere.

[Jazzhead]

I don't believe that for a minute.

A gracious person, when confronted with evidence that his accusation is wrong, would apologize. 

[RoosGirl]

I'm going to suggest a bounty of $500/head for every legal citizen that gives accurate info of name/location of illegals. :)

[RoosGirl]

A gracious person, when confronted with evidence that his accusation is wrong, would apologize.

It's difficult to believe that the number of illegals leaving is greater than or equal to the number of those staying and increasing their population by having kids.

[Bigun]

The problem doesn't exist if you enforce the laws. Send them home. Close the borders.

   I'm firmly on your side and no amount of BS is going to alter my position on this. 

Enforce the law(s), all of them, and the problem disappears.

[roamer_1]

A gracious person, when confronted with evidence that his accusation is wrong, would apologize.

True, but that would require reasonable evidence. The PTB are notoriously incapable of tracking the street, and the number quoted is wholly at odds with bare estimates of crossings per day for decades... And those estimates based only on those who were in fact observed, and in that based on whatever extrapolation. It isn't 10 million. maybe 30m. might be closer to true.

[Bigun]

Actually I'm all for immigration reform!  We should adopt Mexico 's immigration laws immediately.

[Jazzhead]

True, but that would require reasonable evidence. The PTB are notoriously incapable of tracking the street, and the number quoted is wholly at odds with bare estimates of crossings per day for decades... And those estimates based only on those who were in fact observed, and in that based on whatever extrapolation. It isn't 10 million. maybe 30m. might be closer to true.

The source is reputable - Pew Research Council.   And what lends it credence is the trend - it's flat.   

[Jazzhead]

It's difficult to believe that the number of illegals leaving is greater than or equal to the number of those staying and increasing their population by having kids.

I don't see why you turn your back on facts as reported by a reputable source.   

But you touch upon a good point - a guest worker program would allow workers to come here when needed and go home later - to their families.  The tougher you enforce the immigration laws, and the fewer meaningful opportunities you provide to come here and work legally, the more you encourage the situation of illegals coming here with their families.   If they can't go home and return, they'll bring their home here - and create the problems you fear for the social welfare system.

All these problems are the result of poor government policy, and, secondarily, the greed of employers.   As such, the folks I blame the least are the illegals themselves.  All they want to do is provide an honest day's work for the sake of their families.   

[roamer_1]

The source is reputable - Pew Research Council.   And what lends it credence is the trend - it's flat.   

Right... like the sources that claim there's no moonshine being made up here.

[RoosGirl]

I don't see why you turn your back on facts as reported by a reputable source.   

But you touch upon a good point - a guest worker program would allow workers to come here when needed and go home later - to their families.  The tougher you enforce the immigration laws, and the fewer meaningful opportunities you provide to come here and work legally, the more you encourage the situation of illegals coming here with their families.   If they can't go home and return, they'll bring their home here - and create the problems you fear for the social welfare system.

All these problems are the result of poor government policy, and, secondarily, the greed of employers.   As such, the folks I blame the least are the illegals themselves.  All they want to do is provide an honest day's work for the sake of their families.   

We already have a *legal* guest worker program.  There are estimated to be about 1.4 million people in the US with guest worker visas.  Everyone else can, and needs to, go back home to their families.

[Jazzhead]

We already have a *legal* guest worker program.  There are estimated to be about 1.4 million people in the US with guest worker visas.  Everyone else can, and needs to, go back home to their families.

Well, there's apparently still a black market for labor.  Or maybe the problem just isn't as vast as you fear. 

[RoosGirl]

You keeping using the word 'fear'.  I think you are confusing it with 'frustration' at people that think they can break the law to come here and then be felt sorry for when we try to make them leave.

[Oceander]

I'm going to suggest a bounty of $500/head for every legal citizen that gives accurate info of name/location of illegals. :)

The Gestapo and the Stasi rewarded people for turning others in as well. 

And what are you going to do to those who file false reports?  How are you going to recompense someone whose only "crime" was having parents who legally immigrated from Mexico and who got arrested by the same sort of cop who arrested that nurse in Utah?

[Oceander]

You keeping using the word 'fear'.  I think you are confusing it with 'frustration' at people that think they can break the law to come here and then be felt sorry for when we try to make them leave.

What else is it that's motivating you to refuse to face facts, then?

[Oceander]

We already have a *legal* guest worker program.  There are estimated to be about 1.4 million people in the US with guest worker visas.  Everyone else can, and needs to, go back home to their families.

But they won't, and "we" won't be able to make them all do so without turning ourselves into Nazis or Communists.

[RoosGirl]

The Gestapo and the Stasi rewarded people for turning others in as well. 

And what are you going to do to those who file false reports?  How are you going to recompense someone whose only "crime" was having parents who legally immigrated from Mexico and who got arrested by the same sort of cop who arrested that nurse in Utah?

I was joking.  Let's not turn this into more of people calling others Nazis.  People don't take kindly to it.

[RoosGirl]

But they won't, and "we" won't be able to make them all do so without turning ourselves into Nazis or Communists.

Okay, open the border to everyone and give them all voting cards.

[Oceander]

I was joking.  Let's not turn this into more of people calling others Nazis.  People don't take kindly to it.

Fair enough, except that when people start talking about enforcement, they too often do so in a vacuum without any understanding of what that would actually entail. 

Unless we're willing to go down the road where we use their types of tactics on us - all of us, because illegals don't automatically come with a "hello, I'm here illegally" sticker on their lapels - then we have to accept that we will not get rid of all who are currently here illegally, will not be able to catch all who come here illegally in the future, and that the best we can do is to implement a program like the bracero program that lets a lot more people freely come and go for work.